Have you checked for vacuum leaks?

 

Junk all the aftermarket performance mods and get it running right as a base car. Much easier to determine whats causing a problem or issue.

Killing precats and fuel pumps would, one would think, may have something to do with fuelling, pressure or similar perhaps? Misfires joining the party along with sluggishness under load because AFR's are out of kilter?

Purely guesswork at this juncture i know but it only serves to make my real point which is IMO its now an awful lot harder to diagnose since you've thrown away the MAF's and post cats, are running a totally different map and your car is breathing differently due to headers and no cats.

The fact you've carried out the above to what seems to me as a reason to mask over the initial issues boggles the mind, as the mods certainly won't have come cheap, yet the real fix may have done so. To mod a car performance wise you need to have a base which is running right, you wouldn't put coilovers on for better handling because your tires were down to the canvas would you?

I am not advocating that anyone with an issue take all bolt ons from the car everytime they have an issue but i am saying that you should only start looking at modding and subsequent fault finding on a modded car if you knew the car was good from its unmolested base state. Once you "tune" a car that has underlying issues and then subsequently try to fault find, mod more, try again you are in a losing battle.

I say return to standard and start looking properly. At least then once you know its OK you could dyno to prove its in the ballpark and be happy. As it is you won't know what the delta is supposed to be. You could get away with leaving on certain items, like the IATS, not overly sure about the headers if the tune is reverted to stock. I know they would be the biggest PITA in terms of removing but someone more knowledgeable about that may chime in soon enough.

Do you know off hand simply what codes you are pulling at this moment?

 

Junk all the aftermarket performance mods and get it running right as a base car. Much easier to determine whats causing a problem or issue.

THANK YOU! Some good common sense from jamiepeers.

Put your car back to stock. PLEASE! :grrrr:

 

I dont know how to check for vacuum leaks but will look it up on the board,i have been thinking thoroughly bout going back to stock and starting afresh,as for dynoing we dont have one in my country which makes it more the harder in trying to diagnose cars,moreover even the dealership here knows nothing about such tests as compression tests and vacuum leaks.They dont even know what MY is the E39 model.

 

+1 on the return to stock.

Leave the IATS and the Headers..............but I would go to standard map / mafs and as stated , it is easier to diagnose the issues. Could be your map, or even the lack of cats and post cat sensor, unless you know how they have been mapped out/deleted. Multiple misfire can be anything from pre/cat sensors to cam sensors to coil packs. You may have a intermittent broken wire to a coil. Do you have yellow light of death ?
Consider a code reader...........thats where I would start . I have a peake and its good for the £100 it cost me, esp given you have no local dealer with any knowledge.
As for pre cat sensors not lasting long, I have found the same. Mine last about a year but they are not genuine BMW ones. There again the BMW ones are about £120 and I am paying £31 for mine............and I have Van Manen manifolds and a custon remap and it may be that the tolerances are much tighter with a remap hence the more frequent yellow light of death . Easy enough to change.
AS for killing the fuel pump............a remap may make a higher demand of fuel, but I have never heard of a remap killing the fuel pump. I am not an expert on any of this, and I am just thinking aloud, but is the fuel filter fitted the right way round ? Are they directional ? Have you got a tank full of elephant dung ? Im defo steering towards a fueling issue to begin with.
Dont give up on it just yet, they are complex machines, ( and fixable ) and the knowledge base on here can help you fix it even from over there.
I have had no dealing with evolve, but they do mail their maps abroad, so perhaps start by getting in touch with them and see if they can do you a standard map to begin with and once you have sorted out the issue you can go back to your curent map.

If all else fails, use the telephone.................give Phil @ cpc a call, he can run you through a few basics im sure
00 44 01494 766661

Regards,

Nat.

 

Fuel pressure regulator? Sounds like you are running excessively rich.

--Peter

PS: Definitely check ignition coils as well. Swap them around and see if the misfire moves with the coil.

 

I will order a fuel pressure regulator and start from there Peter,also another thing is that the car hesitates between gear changes,u cant chirp the tyres coz the power delivery is delayed just a bit before it comes,the fuel tank is clean as i always check the fuel pump filter and its always clean but i always change it every time i change the fuel pump(this is my 7th fuel pump in 5 years).I do have a peake but i learnt it to my friend will get you the codes as soon as he is back,the misfire is not focused on one cylinder its different cylinders each time i check the codes.Another thing is that my oil pan is cracked a bit so im wondering if the pwer delivery is due to the vanos not pressurising quickly enough coz some of the crankcase pressure is leaking from the crack(im not a mechanic js thinking out loud here).

 

Replace or repair the oil pan. IIRC, the s62's crankcase is negative pressure (pulling the oil dipstick will increase idle speed). Check, also, the fuel pressure, it should be 5.0 Bar (72.5 PsI / 500 KPa) and the fuel pump relay. The tune should not be killing your fuel pump, but for your next pump replacement I would seriously consider a new OE one.

 

Les,give me a call when you have the possibility.

 

Will do Raikku as soon as i get the codes so you can have a basic idea of whats wrong!

 

Have you done a compression test on each of the cylinders?

 

My peake is not yet back but i pulled these codes using an Autel MaxiDig Elite BMW V1.10

139-Interruption,Tempomat operation
132-CAN timeout,DSC(OBD II code P0600)
135-No road speed signal(OBD II code P0500)
117-Road Speed signal via CAN
143-E-box fan
042-Road speed signal
205-Misfiring,cyl 1 without cyl cutout(OBD II Code P0301)
208-Misfiring,cyl 4 without cyl cutout(OBD II code P0304)
213-Multiple misfires during warmup without cyl cutout(OBD II code P0300)
039-O2 sensor heater after-CAT bank 1
040-O2 sensor heater after-CAT bank 2
013-Signal,oxygen sensor before CAT bank 1
212-Misfiring cyl 8,without cyl cutout(OBD code P0308)
012-Signal,oxygen sensor before CAT bank 2
209-Misfiring,cylinder 5 without cylinder cutout(OBD II code P0305)

My ABS pump/module is also gone i think thats where the road speed signal faults are coming from.I have used 3 OEM fuel pumps in the past but they also lasted about 6 months each,i never let the fuel drop below 1/2 tank.The 02 sensors were replaced in April with oem ones but already isee them gone.One other thing when i changed the fuel pump and relay i checked the positive terminal to the battery and found that it was bad and the there was a voltage difference from the altenator to the end of the terminal(at the battery,i changed that).

 

My peake is not yet back but i pulled these codes using an Autel MaxiDig Elite BMW V1.10

139-Interruption,Tempomat operation (Dec Code 139=Cruise control system)
132-CAN timeout,DSC(OBD II code P0600) (Dec Code 132=DSC message timeout)
135-No road speed signal(OBD II code P0500) (Dec Code 135=Vehicle speed signals (both Discrete & CAN))
117-Road Speed signal via CAN (Dec Code 117=Servotronic speed signal)
143-E-box fan (Dec Code 143=E-box-fan)
042-Road speed signal (Dec Code 42="Vehicle speed input signal, hardwired ""A""signal")
205-Misfiring,cyl 1 without cyl cutout(OBD II Code P0301) (Dec Code 205="Misfire during warm-up, Cyl #1")
208-Misfiring,cyl 4 without cyl cutout(OBD II code P0304) (Dec Code 208="Misfire during warm-up, Cyl #4")
213-Multiple misfires during warmup without cyl cutout(OBD II code P0300) (Dec Code 213="Misfire during warm-up, multiple cylinders")
039-O2 sensor heater after-CAT bank 1 (Dec Code 39="AfterCat oxygen sensor heater control, Cyl #1-4")
040-O2 sensor heater after-CAT bank 2 (Dec Code 40="AfterCat oxygen sensor heater control, Cyl #5-8")
013-Signal,oxygen sensor before CAT bank 1 (Dec Code 13="PreCat oxygen sensor, Cyl #1-4")
212-Misfiring cyl 8,without cyl cutout(OBD code P0308) (Dec Code 212="Misfire during warm-up, Cyl #8")
012-Signal,oxygen sensor before CAT bank 2 (Dec Code 12="PreCat oxygen sensor, Cyl #5-8")
209-Misfiring,cylinder 5 without cylinder cutout(OBD II code P0305) (Dec Code 209="Misfire during warm-up, Cyl #5")

My ABS pump/module is also gone i think thats where the road speed signal faults are coming from.I have used 3 OEM fuel pumps in the past but they also lasted about 6 months each,i never let the fuel drop below 1/2 tank.The 02 sensors were replaced in April with oem ones but already isee them gone.One other thing when i changed the fuel pump and relay i checked the positive terminal to the battery and found that it was bad and the there was a voltage difference from the altenator to the end of the terminal(at the battery,i changed that).

See comments above in red.
You may want to check your speed sensors before you go looking for an expensive ABS/DSC Module
Clear the Codes and see which ones re-occur.
As 68Fb stated it appears that there may very well be a fuel quality issue. Also, if the tank has not been emptied; drain it (discard the fuel), remove it and clean the inside of the tank.

 

Eating O2 sensors and fuel pumps like that is very unusual. Is there a problem with fuel quality in your area, for example contaminants like lead or silicon, the kind of stuff that plates out on O2 sensors, or is the fuel dirty which would wear the pump? If this issue only happens to you, then obviously the answer to that is no.

Are you using any fuel additives, maybe to boost octane?

 

Can you read O2 sensor voltages, or "lambda control" values, or short or long term fuel trims with the Autel scan tool?

Have you ever measured the fuel pressure?

Or the running current of the fuel pump?

Do you use a shop to do this work? If so, have they offered any suggestions as to what might be wrong?

 

The fuel is 93 and 95 recently became available,most of the filling stations here swapped out their bulk tanks in 2012 so i think the fuel is clean in most of the filling stations.the fuel pump and the O2 sensors problems happen to me and my friend with the carbon black M5 MY 2003(his is much worse coz a brand new OEM pump takes 3 months and its completely dead),theres another guy with a Silverstone,MY 2000 but he doesnt have the problem,there's also a couple of E46 M3's and they also dont have the problem.As for the DSC/ABS pump im sure its the one thts faulty coz i swapped out mine with a friend and the faults moved to his and mine cleared the faults,the Autel cant do anything more than read the codes,i have never done a compression test,never measured the pump current or fuel pressure but i am free tomorrow will look into the pump current and the lambda sensor measurements and give you feedback.

Here is a plan of how i intend to attempt clearing the problem
1-Check the current on the fuel pump and lambda sensors
2-Clean out my fuel tank
3-Take out the sump/oil pan and go get it welded(im not a mechanic so if there's anything i should be extra careful about here please let me know)
4-Replace fuel pump/O2 sensors/fuel pressure regulator/fuel filter
5-Replace spark plugs and check for vacuum leaks
6-Measure the fuel pressure
7-Do a compression test
8-Put back CATS and OEM exhaust and post CAT O2 sensors

There really is no one to do this here so i will have to do everything by myself and my friends.

 

Also anther question,if the post CAT sensors have been deleted on the MAP are they supposed to register on the fault codes?Also the car doesnt have the CEL light or any other fault warning except fpr DSC and ABS on the cluster!

 

Will revert to stock as soon as possible,one other thing as i remembered is that my fuel gauge reads real time if the tank is half full when im driving and turn to the right the gauge goes up like fuel is sloshing to the right tank and when i turn the car left the fuel goes to the left tank and the gauge needle goes down,this happens on the fuel gauge and the range meter on the screen as well but it started after the DSC module went bad.So im wondering if its only because of the DSC/ABS or there is something wrong with the siphon and main gauge.

 

The voltage to the fuel pump reads 12.16V and the current is 0.22mA

 

That's not right. The current should be around 10 amps, and the voltage you read looks suspiciously close to battery voltage. Was the engine shut off? The pump doesn't run if the engine isn't running.

The fuel pump "relay" is actually an electronic module that controls the voltage to the fuel pump. So at idle, the voltage should be about 10V. As the rpm increases, the voltage increases to 13-13.5V. The current at idle is ~10A, as shown below.

The reason you need to do this is to see if your pump is seeing an unusually high current for some reason, which will burn it out sooner, or if it has an unusually low current indicating it is cavitating or the suction is plugged somehow. (A DC clamp-on ammeter like the one shown in the first photo makes this easy.)

 

Sorry for that but i actually measured the power with the car off but the key in the ON position,i'll be at work tomorrow will measure again with the car running using a clamp meter.The hesitation was there long before the DSC modiule was shot so i doubt if it was the cause for the hesitation.

 

Took the readings again today the voltage at idle is 12.12V,revving to 3000rpm it increases to 12.89V.The current at idle is 14.1A and revving to 3000rpm it increases gradually to 14.89A and it continues to rise as u rev!

 

Sounds like you have the earlier green fuel pump relay which is a normal relay, unlike the black electronic one used in later M5's (or maybe the black one was only used in NA). That's why you don't have the large voltage change with engine rpm that I described above.

Those voltages seem a bit low considering secret menu test #9 normally shows battery voltage around 13.5V. Either the multimeter was reading off a bit, or you have some voltage drop through the wiring or relay, or the charging system is weak.

What voltage do you read on test #9 at idle?

Those currents look normal to me. I got 10A at 10V so I figure the current would be in in the 13-14A range at 13-14V. So it is not excessive load that is causing the short pump life.

The current may have been rising with rpm because the FPR increases the pressure as the manifold vacuum drops, and increasing fuel pressure loads up the pump more.

 

But there are other M5's and M3's around doing just fine on the same fuel

 

If they are using the same gas station as you, then I'm stumped. 7 pumps in 5 years! That's crazy.

Next time, cut the old pump open and check for why it failed. On a high mileage pump, usually it's a burnt, worn commutator (see red arrow). I'm curious about what is happening to yours.

 

deep into it

Hi Les,

I have 2000 M5 with 92K. I've kept mine completely stock with the exception of a few exterior upgrades. This past summer I took a road trip and while on the trip I started to encounter misfire issues around 2000rpm's and a lot of misfires when put under load. Since I was traveling I took it to BMW and they diagnosed it as being the Throttle Positioning sensors, but said I also had six bad coils. I passed on having them do the repairs for three reasons, the cost of the repairs was astronomical at the BMW shop, and I also prefer to do most of my own repairs. The biggest reason though was the coils. It just didn't sound right as the car was running perfect prior to this issue, plus I had just changed my spark plugs 2k prior and every single plug looked like they were burning perfect, so I figured the real problem had to be the TPS, not TPS and Coils. Besides, the car was still drivable and ran fine at cruising speed so getting it back home seemed doable.

Long story short... made the 1000 miles home with little trouble, bought the new sensors and problem went away. I have not changed the coils. This all happened around 80k. I just had to replace my fuel pump two weeks ago so I did wonder if that might have had anything to do with it but it did code as being the TPS. I'm wondering though, in your write up I didn't see anything about codes. Are you getting any codes from the misfires?

 

I have posted the codes somewhere along the thread,i doubt its coils coz the misfire jumps to different cylinders each time i read the codes.So from your inputs i take it my voltage and current are ok,so im gonna overhaul my fuel delivery system right up to the FPR and see if there is any change.

 

Starting from the siphon tank,fuel lines and pressure regulator,If no change then TPS(they have never been changed on this car),then check for vacuum leaks.How much is a GT1,maybe i should get one to help with the trouble shooting.

 

I wouldn't rush to change the TPS's. The DME monitors them very closely because of the safety implications to the drive-by-wire system, and your code list above didn't show any TPS codes. The poster who raised the possibility above did say he had codes for them.

A simple read of the fuel trims would help in telling you if you had FPR or fuel pressure problems. Can you read the trims? A little more diagnostics and a little less changing parts would be cheaper.

 

How do i read the fuel trims?Do i need a diagnosing tool or?Doesnt our oem fuel filter come with the FPR?I'm reading posts on checking vacuum leaks and will do it this weekend!

 

The filter and pressure regulator are separate parts. If you are replacing either the regulator or filter be sure to replace the crush washer between the regulator and the filter.

 

Can someone please share with me a link where i can purchase INPA cable and software,i'm thinking if i can give you better info you will be able to diagnose much easier!

 

I bought mine here...
http://www.cable-shack.co.uk/

 

Ok heres what im gonna do,this weekend im working so wont have a chance to look into the beast,next weenkend im draining the fuel and cleaning the tank,then swapping my friend's FPR and test then check for vacuum leaks,will report the findings here..