What is the highest power s62 that is dyno proven?
Angrydog
There is some good information in the "dyno thread".
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/208716-dyno-thread.html
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/208716-dyno-thread.html
Hi AG
Don't forget, Ascari used the S62 in their super car. They changed things with the engine and it was rated at 625 BHP naturally aspirated and of course was a proven figure.
I 'think' somewhere I heard/read that they offered a slightly higher output version and for some reason I have this 625-630 bhp figure in mind for it and more of the other examples produced had perhaps 20-30 HP less - but I'm a bit vague on this.
Cheers, Dennis!
Don't forget, Ascari used the S62 in their super car. They changed things with the engine and it was rated at 625 BHP naturally aspirated and of course was a proven figure.
I 'think' somewhere I heard/read that they offered a slightly higher output version and for some reason I have this 625-630 bhp figure in mind for it and more of the other examples produced had perhaps 20-30 HP less - but I'm a bit vague on this.
Cheers, Dennis!
Jason's with BHI has 669 WHP which equal to 769 Bhp and run the quarter mile at 11:73
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0yKMwBTOIE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGGOUhgX5bs
He later on sold the car for a lot of money
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0yKMwBTOIE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGGOUhgX5bs
He later on sold the car for a lot of money
I agree. If you want a "insert person here for all parts and labour build" car then yes you're paying for their time at a great deal of expense.
Rest assured if you are willing to do work yourself you can reduce that figure exponentionally.
So far bearing in mind I do all of my work myself i have sunk around £20000 into my car. Whilst not exactly pocket change (to me at least) i do have a car with very well kept bodywork, a stage 1 RK kit, Fully rebuilt bottom end and chain guides, fully rebuilt vanos units, brand new coilovers and associated suspension parts i.e arms, bushes, bearings, drag links etc. Stoptech 4 pot front brakes and fully rebuilt rears. Pretty much every sensor in the car is new and a good few choice pleasing to the eye and ear modifications too. If you can bolt it to the monocoque then bar a couple of items its been replaced on my car.
There's plenty more in the list but to start to mention everything kind of gets away from the point being made here which is what you spend to what you get.
Although i am not trying to get into a dick waving contest about whos car is better, as i have no doubt dropping £45K with Raikku nets you a very special car indeed i think its a bit naive and folly to suggest that someone after an FI equipped M5 needs to spend anywhere near that to have a pretty scary setup. If you have a decent base car then in reality £10000 gets you a very nice power upgrade and perhaps a few quid more gets you the ability to repaeatedly haul that speed in with a brake set up to boot.
I'm not suggesting you bolt a 580HP kit to some ropey old dog and think its the bees knees but a looked after base car with some rod bearings and guides for relaibility, a decent vanos and sensor revamp for almost guaranteed future proof performance woes with a stage 1 kit strapped to it will be a nice place to sit and surprise some machinery that cost 3 fold what you've sunk in.
If thats your bag of course
Rest assured if you are willing to do work yourself you can reduce that figure exponentionally.
So far bearing in mind I do all of my work myself i have sunk around £20000 into my car. Whilst not exactly pocket change (to me at least) i do have a car with very well kept bodywork, a stage 1 RK kit, Fully rebuilt bottom end and chain guides, fully rebuilt vanos units, brand new coilovers and associated suspension parts i.e arms, bushes, bearings, drag links etc. Stoptech 4 pot front brakes and fully rebuilt rears. Pretty much every sensor in the car is new and a good few choice pleasing to the eye and ear modifications too. If you can bolt it to the monocoque then bar a couple of items its been replaced on my car.
There's plenty more in the list but to start to mention everything kind of gets away from the point being made here which is what you spend to what you get.
Although i am not trying to get into a dick waving contest about whos car is better, as i have no doubt dropping £45K with Raikku nets you a very special car indeed i think its a bit naive and folly to suggest that someone after an FI equipped M5 needs to spend anywhere near that to have a pretty scary setup. If you have a decent base car then in reality £10000 gets you a very nice power upgrade and perhaps a few quid more gets you the ability to repaeatedly haul that speed in with a brake set up to boot.
I'm not suggesting you bolt a 580HP kit to some ropey old dog and think its the bees knees but a looked after base car with some rod bearings and guides for relaibility, a decent vanos and sensor revamp for almost guaranteed future proof performance woes with a stage 1 kit strapped to it will be a nice place to sit and surprise some machinery that cost 3 fold what you've sunk in.
If thats your bag of course
I think there's a fair bit of crossed wires somewhere here.
The only thing I thought Mike was alluding to in the thread was what he could expect performance wise for a certain budget. The budget is circa £10000 and I think that for that amount of money you'll get a very nicely sorted car in the performance department, given the various bolt on SC kits on offer for about 40% of that, lets call it 50%, £5000 by the time its delivered with duty paid.
At no point did I see Mike say a car as impressive as Kamm's COULD be built for 10K, only Kamm saying 10K won't get you very far and Mike suggesting it will see him right for what he wants, nothing more?
Although I don't know the spec of Kamm's car or exactly whats been replaced or refurbed I can clearly see its a stage 2 RK kit, and even things like the coolant header tank has been replaced so I can only assume that attention to detail has been carried on extensively throughout the build.
Kudos to Kamm and to Raikku for such a car, BUT, that kind of build isn't suited, nor affordable to everyone, and one shouldn't turn up their nose suggesting if you have anything less than insane money to drop on a 15 year old 3 generation old saloon car then you simply shouldn't bother, or that you haven't done anything properly.
Like Chippy's build which is simply out of this world in terms of parts choice and workmanship. Its mindblowing and a real showcase of Raikku's skill and attention to detail, but replacing every fastener, washer, fixing, media blasting, powder coating and zinc plating every surface under the sun can and does push up the cost of whatever you're doing by God knows how many fold.
I'll wager that almost all of the FI cars on this board are nice, well looked after examples that most folk would be proud to own but also that those cars will not have every single piece of trim, plastic, nut and bolt replaced. However, I wouldn't ever say any of those owners didn't do the job properly because they chose to forego those pieces.
No one is saying or suggesting that at a £45000 spend that the car isn't anything but wonderful and well put together, nor is anyone saying its excessive in terms of whats been charged for parts or services.
But if a member says they want a good bolt on kit and a few very well thought out jobs carrying out to a car they're planning on adding another 150HP to in order to make it safe reliable and as trouble free as you can hope for, for £10000, and other members here have a similar setup and know it can be done for similar money, then should we encourage that member and help through collective experience and knowledge or do we get a little agitated over it and mock them?
I say at around £5000 for the kit and £3000 for bringing the car mechanically up to spec you won't be far away, that leaves a £2000 contingency for other things you might decide to do whilst in there, sensors, parts, extras for the kit in order for it to function, fit or look that bit nicer etc, and that's not a bad unrealistic budget.
The only thing I thought Mike was alluding to in the thread was what he could expect performance wise for a certain budget. The budget is circa £10000 and I think that for that amount of money you'll get a very nicely sorted car in the performance department, given the various bolt on SC kits on offer for about 40% of that, lets call it 50%, £5000 by the time its delivered with duty paid.
At no point did I see Mike say a car as impressive as Kamm's COULD be built for 10K, only Kamm saying 10K won't get you very far and Mike suggesting it will see him right for what he wants, nothing more?
Although I don't know the spec of Kamm's car or exactly whats been replaced or refurbed I can clearly see its a stage 2 RK kit, and even things like the coolant header tank has been replaced so I can only assume that attention to detail has been carried on extensively throughout the build.
Kudos to Kamm and to Raikku for such a car, BUT, that kind of build isn't suited, nor affordable to everyone, and one shouldn't turn up their nose suggesting if you have anything less than insane money to drop on a 15 year old 3 generation old saloon car then you simply shouldn't bother, or that you haven't done anything properly.
Like Chippy's build which is simply out of this world in terms of parts choice and workmanship. Its mindblowing and a real showcase of Raikku's skill and attention to detail, but replacing every fastener, washer, fixing, media blasting, powder coating and zinc plating every surface under the sun can and does push up the cost of whatever you're doing by God knows how many fold.
I'll wager that almost all of the FI cars on this board are nice, well looked after examples that most folk would be proud to own but also that those cars will not have every single piece of trim, plastic, nut and bolt replaced. However, I wouldn't ever say any of those owners didn't do the job properly because they chose to forego those pieces.
No one is saying or suggesting that at a £45000 spend that the car isn't anything but wonderful and well put together, nor is anyone saying its excessive in terms of whats been charged for parts or services.
But if a member says they want a good bolt on kit and a few very well thought out jobs carrying out to a car they're planning on adding another 150HP to in order to make it safe reliable and as trouble free as you can hope for, for £10000, and other members here have a similar setup and know it can be done for similar money, then should we encourage that member and help through collective experience and knowledge or do we get a little agitated over it and mock them?
I say at around £5000 for the kit and £3000 for bringing the car mechanically up to spec you won't be far away, that leaves a £2000 contingency for other things you might decide to do whilst in there, sensors, parts, extras for the kit in order for it to function, fit or look that bit nicer etc, and that's not a bad unrealistic budget.
Ok where to start, our beloved beasts have aged and do cost a **** ton to maintain never mind start to modify. There are guys like my self who stick to n\a power and to wring out every last bit. But it costs a **** ton of money. I know that my wife would probably divorce me if she knew how much money I have dumped into my beast, and that is with me doing all the labor. I started to run rough numbers in my head and got sick to my stomach. We know its a 13 + year old sedan but there is something about it that's so addicting. Raikku and many others have seen the crazy cars that roll threw my shop that I am blessed to work on and drive. Every time I drive them I seem to compare them to the M5 in my head. As A few people stated that have driven my car it feels like a race spec M5 and its set up perfectly to my liking from braking to handling to acceleration. I have built my self an overall package. My close friendship with Raikku has helped me achieve my goal. Like everyone its a slippery slope and you want more.
I know it may be big and heavy for certain situations and not the fastest on the block but the good old girl does mess with many heads. There are cars on this board that are FI and much faster.
The point of all this said is. What does it matter how much money you have dumped into your beast you build it for your own personal taste. And I am sure there are many like my self that have exceeded Kamm's number But that is irrelevant. We will spend whatever we want to achieve a personal desire.
I know it may be big and heavy for certain situations and not the fastest on the block but the good old girl does mess with many heads. There are cars on this board that are FI and much faster.
The point of all this said is. What does it matter how much money you have dumped into your beast you build it for your own personal taste. And I am sure there are many like my self that have exceeded Kamm's number But that is irrelevant. We will spend whatever we want to achieve a personal desire.
Kamm, i don't restore cars but I do work on them for pleasure and also as a side line now and then in between other commitments, as well as owning a couple myself in various stages of whatever they may be going through at the time!
And apologies to you or anyone if I come across waspish or similar in my replies, I certainly do not mean to have a go or come across as such, but sometimes (like now) my replies can get somewhat expansive and its all the more difficult to convey a mood and have a conversation without it seeming like you're going at it hell for leather at people! If that's the way it seems then apologies, it isn't meant to, rather a good civil debate is what I enjoy more than anything.
Robo, I believe Mike is doing the guides too, parts for guides and rod bearings currently run circa £1800 at the dealers with discount or there abouts, the £1200 left in Mike's calc's will be for labour give or take.
George I don't believe anyone in the thread is saying that people who really go for it in the cost department are silly in a nasty way. When people use sayings like “mental money” and quote that its a car of “x” years old its just expressing an opinion that people see different values and commodities in different lights to others.
Some people cannot justify or want to spend large sums of money (perhaps in real terms, perhaps to them personally) on cars at all, some will spend a little, some a lot, and some a lot more again. I guess being on a car forum, we all fall somewhere towards the upper end of the “little” category all the way to who knows where it ends?
The only thing i would say is and of absolute utmost importance is that a caveat of your budget is realistic expectations of what you want or are going to recieve for that budget, and in this case the rough figure of £10000 doesn't sound too far away.
Perhaps splitting hairs we will all differ slightly in our opinion, Mike says he's planning suspension and other bits too, i suppose there are infinite variables as in how each of use defines something that sounds as simple as “suspension” mean we could star a whole other discussion based solely on that too. Shocks and springs, balljoints, arms, bushes where does it start and end for one mans description to anothers?
My suspension refresh might include all of the above, yours may be just a set of coilovers. Our budgets and outlook would be wildy different but if we reasonably expect what we will recieve for those budgets then there is no right or wrong way of going about that work.
My gripe is when people see say a supercharger kit for $5000, and think that they are going to get a car that will perform flawlessly for years to come, by bolting on that kit to a car that really has lots of unknown quantities and worn out or past their best parts.
Never mind not even considering that you need to take into account duty, delivery and all of the other parts that in reality should be replaced or at least considered as a matter of course, or spend the bare minimum on maintaining that car but blow masses of cash for performance parts to bolt to effectively a worn out or not running right base.
AND THEN, think that its a fair comparable to others who have done all of the above and beyond,
Like Kamm's and Chippy's car to name 2, because they are over here in the UK. It would be silly for me to directly compare my car to theirs just by looking at the threads and posts on here and seeing the work, detail and parts that have been lavished on these cars, but at the same time i'd never be ashamed to park next to these guys at a meet up and feel embarrased by my car, i know i've spent well in areas the car needed to be spent on and whilst its not perfect, its a car i can be proud of, and my achievements in doing it myself, for a budget that continously grows as ownership rolls on, but one i am comforatble with reagrding my earnings and other priorities in my life at the same time.
If someone suggested i cut corners or didn't do it properly because i'm £20000 in instead of £40000 then i'd be more than a little dissapointed at that attitude to be honest. More so becasue my figure accounts for zero labour. Its another infinately variable cost that can make 2 identical builds worlds apart in terms of cost, and yet its solely cost that seems to be the bench of so many when comparing cars or doing things right by each other.
I don't think the figure bandied is a small some of money nor are expectations overly high. In my mind taking on so much always uncovers more work needed that crops up unexpectedly, hence my reasoning for the £2000 left in the pot. Mike thinks more parts can be had in that £10K and who am I to argue given he knows how good a base car he has, the truth of the matter may lie somewhere in between the 2, but given he isn't being unreasonable saying he wants it all for 2 conkers and a frog then its not like i'll find pleasure in proving or disproving it.
Will it be the worlds best E39 for a 10K spend? Well of course it won't but personally I can't think of many ways to sink 10 bags into making a car go faster and having something that far exceeds the sum of its parts in terms of performance worthy of something costing a hell of a lot more.
I say good luck.
And apologies to you or anyone if I come across waspish or similar in my replies, I certainly do not mean to have a go or come across as such, but sometimes (like now) my replies can get somewhat expansive and its all the more difficult to convey a mood and have a conversation without it seeming like you're going at it hell for leather at people! If that's the way it seems then apologies, it isn't meant to, rather a good civil debate is what I enjoy more than anything.
Robo, I believe Mike is doing the guides too, parts for guides and rod bearings currently run circa £1800 at the dealers with discount or there abouts, the £1200 left in Mike's calc's will be for labour give or take.
George I don't believe anyone in the thread is saying that people who really go for it in the cost department are silly in a nasty way. When people use sayings like “mental money” and quote that its a car of “x” years old its just expressing an opinion that people see different values and commodities in different lights to others.
Some people cannot justify or want to spend large sums of money (perhaps in real terms, perhaps to them personally) on cars at all, some will spend a little, some a lot, and some a lot more again. I guess being on a car forum, we all fall somewhere towards the upper end of the “little” category all the way to who knows where it ends?
The only thing i would say is and of absolute utmost importance is that a caveat of your budget is realistic expectations of what you want or are going to recieve for that budget, and in this case the rough figure of £10000 doesn't sound too far away.
Perhaps splitting hairs we will all differ slightly in our opinion, Mike says he's planning suspension and other bits too, i suppose there are infinite variables as in how each of use defines something that sounds as simple as “suspension” mean we could star a whole other discussion based solely on that too. Shocks and springs, balljoints, arms, bushes where does it start and end for one mans description to anothers?
My suspension refresh might include all of the above, yours may be just a set of coilovers. Our budgets and outlook would be wildy different but if we reasonably expect what we will recieve for those budgets then there is no right or wrong way of going about that work.
My gripe is when people see say a supercharger kit for $5000, and think that they are going to get a car that will perform flawlessly for years to come, by bolting on that kit to a car that really has lots of unknown quantities and worn out or past their best parts.
Never mind not even considering that you need to take into account duty, delivery and all of the other parts that in reality should be replaced or at least considered as a matter of course, or spend the bare minimum on maintaining that car but blow masses of cash for performance parts to bolt to effectively a worn out or not running right base.
AND THEN, think that its a fair comparable to others who have done all of the above and beyond,
Like Kamm's and Chippy's car to name 2, because they are over here in the UK. It would be silly for me to directly compare my car to theirs just by looking at the threads and posts on here and seeing the work, detail and parts that have been lavished on these cars, but at the same time i'd never be ashamed to park next to these guys at a meet up and feel embarrased by my car, i know i've spent well in areas the car needed to be spent on and whilst its not perfect, its a car i can be proud of, and my achievements in doing it myself, for a budget that continously grows as ownership rolls on, but one i am comforatble with reagrding my earnings and other priorities in my life at the same time.
If someone suggested i cut corners or didn't do it properly because i'm £20000 in instead of £40000 then i'd be more than a little dissapointed at that attitude to be honest. More so becasue my figure accounts for zero labour. Its another infinately variable cost that can make 2 identical builds worlds apart in terms of cost, and yet its solely cost that seems to be the bench of so many when comparing cars or doing things right by each other.
I don't think the figure bandied is a small some of money nor are expectations overly high. In my mind taking on so much always uncovers more work needed that crops up unexpectedly, hence my reasoning for the £2000 left in the pot. Mike thinks more parts can be had in that £10K and who am I to argue given he knows how good a base car he has, the truth of the matter may lie somewhere in between the 2, but given he isn't being unreasonable saying he wants it all for 2 conkers and a frog then its not like i'll find pleasure in proving or disproving it.
Will it be the worlds best E39 for a 10K spend? Well of course it won't but personally I can't think of many ways to sink 10 bags into making a car go faster and having something that far exceeds the sum of its parts in terms of performance worthy of something costing a hell of a lot more.
I say good luck.
It's late, I've done a full days work and some and am on Minimal sleep so this reply isn't as long as it could be.
Jamie is spot on with his assessment. If I was going to spend a lot of money on a car to the tune of £30k it wouldn't be my M5, but £10k to £12k is a doer, as once done I think it'll hold reasonable value.
Many of the suspension components have been replaced by the last two owners and the car feels a lot tighter than my first one did that hadnt had the same treatment. Imo currently it only needs new shocks and springs / Coilovers, but we will see as hopefully the person doing the rod bearings and guides will be kind enough to give the car a once over and let me know if in their respected opinion (mine at least) that items should be replaced.
Regarding a break down, its not so straight forward. I get trade discount on many parts as I also run a performance parts company (inland revenue registered) so I will naturally pay less for parts than others, which means my nett spend will be less on any given part.
If I can get somewhere near 600bhp at the flywheel with meth I'll be a happy man. If not then I'll still be a happy man.
Jamie is spot on with his assessment. If I was going to spend a lot of money on a car to the tune of £30k it wouldn't be my M5, but £10k to £12k is a doer, as once done I think it'll hold reasonable value.
Many of the suspension components have been replaced by the last two owners and the car feels a lot tighter than my first one did that hadnt had the same treatment. Imo currently it only needs new shocks and springs / Coilovers, but we will see as hopefully the person doing the rod bearings and guides will be kind enough to give the car a once over and let me know if in their respected opinion (mine at least) that items should be replaced.
Regarding a break down, its not so straight forward. I get trade discount on many parts as I also run a performance parts company (inland revenue registered) so I will naturally pay less for parts than others, which means my nett spend will be less on any given part.
If I can get somewhere near 600bhp at the flywheel with meth I'll be a happy man. If not then I'll still be a happy man.
Interesting to review this thread after the passage of so much time. Just to update it: We have had one customer make 756 whp @7400 rpm with 19 psi boost on a built engine and a Frank Smith tune. My old engine recently put down 673 whp with only 14 psi boost @7200 rpm until it blew up because the racer lost his water pump belt and didn't realize it until a couple of piston ring-lands had melted. Partee Racing NA HO builds are expected to put out 500-525 bhp with stacks and headers and an Epic Motorsport tune. Finally, our race S62 (with two ringed pistons, vanos delete, and a Dailey dry sump) maxes out at 640 bhp and needs a rebuild about every 25 hours of race time.
The nearly ineradicable issue presented by high-powered FI S62s is head bolts/studs. If you use studs, you will get the seal you want, but in our experience, distort the cylinder walls and seriously limit the engine's life. If you use BMW head bolts, you won't distort the cylinder walls and will get the seal you want UNTIL the bolts stretch beyond spec and start pressurizing the cooling system. Originally we specd this as happening at 20 psi or so boost, but we've seen it happen with less boost, so now, we tell our clients to keep it at 14 psi or below unless they want to regularly change their headbolts or shorten the engine's life by using distorting studs. Some advocate milling the block for inserts and using M12 BMW headbolts from the S54 intstead of the stock S62 M10 headbolts. We have yet to try that technique because the vast majority of our customers either are NA or lower-boost FI. Others are having custom studs made by ARP that allegedly will not distort the block the way other commercially available studs for the S62 do. We shall see!
Just a description of my experience; yours may vary!
--Peter
The nearly ineradicable issue presented by high-powered FI S62s is head bolts/studs. If you use studs, you will get the seal you want, but in our experience, distort the cylinder walls and seriously limit the engine's life. If you use BMW head bolts, you won't distort the cylinder walls and will get the seal you want UNTIL the bolts stretch beyond spec and start pressurizing the cooling system. Originally we specd this as happening at 20 psi or so boost, but we've seen it happen with less boost, so now, we tell our clients to keep it at 14 psi or below unless they want to regularly change their headbolts or shorten the engine's life by using distorting studs. Some advocate milling the block for inserts and using M12 BMW headbolts from the S54 intstead of the stock S62 M10 headbolts. We have yet to try that technique because the vast majority of our customers either are NA or lower-boost FI. Others are having custom studs made by ARP that allegedly will not distort the block the way other commercially available studs for the S62 do. We shall see!
Just a description of my experience; yours may vary!
--Peter
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