Since my radio modual or amp has kicked it its got me thinking about alternative solutions for our cars audio and ui. Having recently played with i drive from a new 1 series I pose the question how hard / expensive would it be to retrofit in place of our system. Not including the interior modification just strictly from a electronic point of view.
Fanatech
I'm curious of this as well. My main concern is there may be some "checks" in the system where it simply wont function without input from the host car or some of it's specific modules communicating something.
I think the biggest problem may be the different electronic systems used but I'm curious to see what anyone has to say on this.
I think the biggest problem may be the different electronic systems used but I'm curious to see what anyone has to say on this.
Hi,
How many multiple thousands of dollars are you wishing to dedicate to this ?
I'm sure someone, somewhere will reverse engineer the later idrive type system, work out how to interface the E39's electronic signals Bus with the iDrive's optical based one, then make an interface box, test it, fix any bugs problems etc.. quite how much they can/will get done or if successful remains to be seen. I think over the last 8+ years, there's been people who've 'wanted' it and it seemingly hasn't got past the 'dream' stage, once the realities of how much it could cost becomes known!
There's someone asking the same over on another forum, with no responses as well (I just added one though!)
Cheers, Dennis!
How many multiple thousands of dollars are you wishing to dedicate to this ?
I'm sure someone, somewhere will reverse engineer the later idrive type system, work out how to interface the E39's electronic signals Bus with the iDrive's optical based one, then make an interface box, test it, fix any bugs problems etc.. quite how much they can/will get done or if successful remains to be seen. I think over the last 8+ years, there's been people who've 'wanted' it and it seemingly hasn't got past the 'dream' stage, once the realities of how much it could cost becomes known!
There's someone asking the same over on another forum, with no responses as well (I just added one though!)
Cheers, Dennis!
It can be done; but for the cost I would just get a good '09 or '10 M5 and be happy. If you really wanted to do this I would use the display from the early 1series as it should be much easier to fit as it will not require a display hood and is a folding unit mounted to the top of the dash. The integration for the MOST to I-bus is likely going to the hardest part and the show stopper. A car-puter with a 3d mouse the e82 display and a GUI that resembles the CIC's GUI will be easier, cheaper and possible more reliable.
If however, your radio or amp is duffed contact Clemster for a replacement. A newer BM53/4 radio, DSP amp, and Intravee (+ some alpine components) will give you very nearly everything that the CIC will and will work flawlessly with the e30's I-bus.
If however, your radio or amp is duffed contact Clemster for a replacement. A newer BM53/4 radio, DSP amp, and Intravee (+ some alpine components) will give you very nearly everything that the CIC will and will work flawlessly with the e30's I-bus.
I looked into this quite a bit recently and in studying the wiring diagrams, I think it would be a definitely possible retrofit, though maybe not the entire Idrive system. The media system is pretty standalone and is the main thing using the MOST bus. The Instrument cluster acts as a gateway to the other systems much like ours does to the rest of the car (DME, EGS, etc.). To get the media system working though, shouldn't be that difficult. The CIC is composed of the display and the Nav/Media computer as the necessary components. People have been successful in bench testing these things, so I can't imagine why it wouldn't work in our cars. The relevant signals from the rest of the car that would be needed in the Nav system would be vehicle speed which, just like our e39's, is provided by the rear ABS sensor. As for the amplifier side of things, you'll have to leave DSP behind from what I can tell, unless you also retrofit the amp from the idrive car. If you do that, there's no guarantee that it will sound correct since it's assuming different speakers and acoustics. According to the wiring diagrams though, there is a basic amp in the newer cars that wouldn't require much to make work. Obviously, you won't be using the OBD functions and climate controls of idrive, but the media system should work. You could then use a MOST version of bluetooth TCU, MOST version CD-Changer, and anything else MOST bus equipped by simply daisy-chaining the components.
Of course, all this assumes that the instrument cluster is not needed to make all this work. I think there is a MOST controller that is separate from the cluster, but if not, then you might be able to hide an e60 cluster in the trunk somewhere. This seems unnecessary since, like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure people have bench tested these things before with only the media computer and display powered up. I hope someone decides to take this project on, because it'd be really cool. I'm not in a position right now to purchase all these components with the fabrication skills I don't have. I imagine there will some remote locating of some of the computer components to get it to fit in our dash, or it could be mounted in the trunk somewhere and relocate the control buttons to the dash.
The concept is out there guys, someone run with it!
Of course, all this assumes that the instrument cluster is not needed to make all this work. I think there is a MOST controller that is separate from the cluster, but if not, then you might be able to hide an e60 cluster in the trunk somewhere. This seems unnecessary since, like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure people have bench tested these things before with only the media computer and display powered up. I hope someone decides to take this project on, because it'd be really cool. I'm not in a position right now to purchase all these components with the fabrication skills I don't have. I imagine there will some remote locating of some of the computer components to get it to fit in our dash, or it could be mounted in the trunk somewhere and relocate the control buttons to the dash.
The concept is out there guys, someone run with it!
I just found this site: E46 CIC installation, where a guy installed the CIC into his 2002 M3. He made two interfaces that made the CIC talk to the engine bus as well as the ibus. He created the site in 2010, but maybe he can still provide information on it or make the interfaces for people.
Im likely going to go with the BM53 with intravee route once I diagnose what is exactly wrong but in an ideal world I think an idrive system in our cars would be the "ultimate" choice at least if fully implemented and done without too much challange ie no e60 or e82 or f something cluster chilling in the trunk or anything like that. If a idrive system has been run completly outside a car just on a test bench in theory with just basic functionality it could be utilised in a e39. That being said if I were going to go that route I would want a implementation that would be almost oem like in functionality. Somthing that may be semi related is that I know of a Russian guy with a red gold e60 m5 had a I drive system from a new x5 put in his e60 m5. Now I imagine that would be much easier as both run idrive systems even though I believe the e60 one that was replaced is rather legacy compared to a new x5 one.
it has been done many times, but the price of parts (from junk yards) easily pass 2k USD mark.
see this thread: E53 Óñòà Ăîâêà CIC â ĂĄ53... - BMW Club (open with google translator if necessary)
see this thread: E53 Óñòà Ăîâêà CIC â ĂĄ53... - BMW Club (open with google translator if necessary)
Hi,
I've seen the E46 CIC retrofit page before and perhaps buying the various modules will be cheaper when picked up off ebay which is a bonus. Cancelling out that potential bonus is that if any of the newer modules fail, then there's very little in terms of having them overhauled and if anything can be fixed/replaced within them, it's relatively expensive. If nothing can be fixed, then a whole replacement unit must be sourced. Ongoing costs to keeping everything working will be potentially very expensive.
Looks like there's 2 interface unit's needed and some knowledge of programming the module to add those extra features mentioned. Any installation costs will be extra.
Further down the page, the paragraph where he mentions it might not be possible to retrofit the CiC seems a bit confusing. I 'think' he means to get integration with the rest of the car's systems might not be possible due to coding requirements etc.
So assuming the modules could be picked up for around $2K, I'd say a ballpark figure to someone who'd like to have the project done for them, would be perhaps $3-4K once all is installed, interfaces purchased, programmed etc.
The 8.8 inch TFT screen would look cool though!
Cheers, Dennis!
I've seen the E46 CIC retrofit page before and perhaps buying the various modules will be cheaper when picked up off ebay which is a bonus. Cancelling out that potential bonus is that if any of the newer modules fail, then there's very little in terms of having them overhauled and if anything can be fixed/replaced within them, it's relatively expensive. If nothing can be fixed, then a whole replacement unit must be sourced. Ongoing costs to keeping everything working will be potentially very expensive.
Looks like there's 2 interface unit's needed and some knowledge of programming the module to add those extra features mentioned. Any installation costs will be extra.
Further down the page, the paragraph where he mentions it might not be possible to retrofit the CiC seems a bit confusing. I 'think' he means to get integration with the rest of the car's systems might not be possible due to coding requirements etc.
So assuming the modules could be picked up for around $2K, I'd say a ballpark figure to someone who'd like to have the project done for them, would be perhaps $3-4K once all is installed, interfaces purchased, programmed etc.
The 8.8 inch TFT screen would look cool though!
Cheers, Dennis!
Just for clarification, the MOST (fiber optic network) is not used for anything other than the media/nav/TCU/etc modules to talk to each other. It is a completely separate network from the Ibus. The CAN bus for seats, climate, door locks, lights, etc. is a separate network and does not use fiber optic. There are CAN translators that you can get online that will convert the bus speeds and frequencies, but you might still need a gateway that parses the CIC messages to Ibus messages (should be fairly simple if you have a list of the messages for both, which I think I have and is certainly available online). You might only need a CAN bus translator alone for converting the engine CAN bus between ours and the PT-CAN that the newer cars use. I think the messages on that network are the same, just at different speeds. Once you have the basic system working, these functions can be added, but to simply run the media/nav, you shouldn't need these gateways. You also can then add additional MOST based modules to your system including the Combox for additional video options and other cool stuff.
I just pulled this up to show that I was wrong about needing the cluster hidden in the trunk, the main nav/media computer is the gateway to the K-CAN bus and creates the MOST network. Everything media related is then connected to it by fiber optic cable in a ring bus configuration and it doesn't matter what order the units are plugged in, just as long as the network is a closed ring.
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Hi,
Good stuff!
I'm just looking at the 'whole' picture as it were - For someone with no knowledge experience of fitting etc, is my estimate of $3000/4000 USD about right to collect the modules needed, fitting them up (including a custom bezel to hold the 8.8 inch wide LCD) and having whatever coding needed to make it all work in an E39? (E46, E53 and any other cars too!)
If that's about right, it's one very expensive way of then essentially only having a wide LCD and the ability to change options with a rotary controller! sound quality would be at oem level assuming the oem speakers can connect to the CIC unit, any extra options like digital radio, Bluetooth, TV, would need the purchase of another module etc - with these added, the price would bump up to perhaps $4000/5000+ ?
I'm sure a few guys out there will do such a project, but like it's been for the last 5-10 years or so, the costs of doing this for 99.9% of owners means it's just not worth doing at all.
Cheers, Dennis!
Good stuff!
I'm just looking at the 'whole' picture as it were - For someone with no knowledge experience of fitting etc, is my estimate of $3000/4000 USD about right to collect the modules needed, fitting them up (including a custom bezel to hold the 8.8 inch wide LCD) and having whatever coding needed to make it all work in an E39? (E46, E53 and any other cars too!)
If that's about right, it's one very expensive way of then essentially only having a wide LCD and the ability to change options with a rotary controller! sound quality would be at oem level assuming the oem speakers can connect to the CIC unit, any extra options like digital radio, Bluetooth, TV, would need the purchase of another module etc - with these added, the price would bump up to perhaps $4000/5000+ ?
I'm sure a few guys out there will do such a project, but like it's been for the last 5-10 years or so, the costs of doing this for 99.9% of owners means it's just not worth doing at all.
Cheers, Dennis!
I also just remembered that I'd found this before: http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e6...-m5-e61-m5-touring-discussion/214354-any-interest-e60-can-bus-code-hacking.html where he is trying to decipher the messages on the K-CAN bus in his e60. By having only the M-ASK/CCC connected to the CANshield, you could get only the messages you want from the unit and translate them to Ibus messages that are pretty well known and vice-versa. An arduino uno for $30 can do the translation needed, though you might need two can shields to talk to each bus. Still, the integration equipment wouldn't cost much, just need the e60 components themselves and figure out how to mount the LCD and button controller. Both e39 and e38 would have a good location to mount the idrive controller in the center console next to the shifter or behind it.
The reading and broadcasting of the CAN bus has come a long way. Check out Complete: E46-LS1 guage solution using OBDII to Can signals for a start.
Insane the amount of misinformation and downright inaccurate info out there surrounding this stuff. Also reminds me of that guy who wanted to paint his car recently. Its weird to me when someone wants to do some obscure engine build everything is all for it, but want to do anything cosmetic or update the entertainment amnenities? Better go OEM or with established alternatives, otherwise don't even bother is the general mindset here... when we should, IMO, be encouraging people to at least try new stuff or at the very least when people say they want to do it, to maybe say "Yeah, go for it" and see what happens. Isn't that what car modifying is about? Isn't what what car enthusiasts like to do - make their cars... theirs?
This mindset is why stuff like this isn't often attempted, but as blackknight has stated, there are workarounds already established for these problems. It's already been done before, I'm unsure why everyone is so 110% positive that it can't be done again without selling a kidney. Figuring this stuff out is more a factor of staring at wiring diagrams 10 hours a day vs. spending $10,000 (which would inevtiably just pay someone else to stare at wiring diagrams all day). COST is the smallest factor here, yet people keep bringing up "may as well buy an E60 M5" or "for that money you can buy an E39 M5" ...no... no you can't! And even if you can it's missing the point! We are asking how to do it, not why we shouldn't. Even if it did cost as much as an E39 M5 to make it work, who cares. We don't want a second E39 M5. We want ONE E39 M5 with an iDrive system working in it! Saying we may as well just buy another car is missing the point entirely.
/rantoff
Sorry about that - but this negativity is preventing us from opening new doors and figuring out new exciting things and I really don't like it. The E46 link blackknight posted even linked to an aftermarket module that, based on what I can tell, makes easy work of all this stuff! Nobody is ever going to force any of you to have an iDrive system in your car, so I dont understand why are you guys being negative about us wanting to do so to our cars?
This mindset is why stuff like this isn't often attempted, but as blackknight has stated, there are workarounds already established for these problems. It's already been done before, I'm unsure why everyone is so 110% positive that it can't be done again without selling a kidney. Figuring this stuff out is more a factor of staring at wiring diagrams 10 hours a day vs. spending $10,000 (which would inevtiably just pay someone else to stare at wiring diagrams all day). COST is the smallest factor here, yet people keep bringing up "may as well buy an E60 M5" or "for that money you can buy an E39 M5" ...no... no you can't! And even if you can it's missing the point! We are asking how to do it, not why we shouldn't. Even if it did cost as much as an E39 M5 to make it work, who cares. We don't want a second E39 M5. We want ONE E39 M5 with an iDrive system working in it! Saying we may as well just buy another car is missing the point entirely.
/rantoff
Sorry about that - but this negativity is preventing us from opening new doors and figuring out new exciting things and I really don't like it. The E46 link blackknight posted even linked to an aftermarket module that, based on what I can tell, makes easy work of all this stuff! Nobody is ever going to force any of you to have an iDrive system in your car, so I dont understand why are you guys being negative about us wanting to do so to our cars?
I've seen CIC kits for as low as $500 with my junkyard parts locator - including screen, trunk module, and a handful of other modules - I'm figuring $1000 for all the needed hardware and sensors etc - no way would it cost anything close to $3000. The hardware is cheap in the US if you know where to look, the hardware and software needed to let the two different systems talk to eachother exists and is not a huge cost either. Getting done what I want to do - basically just nav and media, is *probably* going to be extremely simple. To do everything else, like the guy in the E46, is a bit more involved. But it basically comes down to the iDrive being somewhat easy to make work with the media and nav portions, everything else is just gravy if you can make it work and its just more features we are adding to the car.
I'm thinking maybe I'll get a cheap E39 around summer, experiment with making an iDrive unit mate up and once I figure it out, learn from my mistakes and do it even more proper in an M5 down the road.
I'm thinking maybe I'll get a cheap E39 around summer, experiment with making an iDrive unit mate up and once I figure it out, learn from my mistakes and do it even more proper in an M5 down the road.
Just for another bit of information, the CIC main unit has a basic amplifier built-in, but when you connect the Top-HIFI amp to the MOST bus, it uses that instead, much like the e39 DSP, except that you don't have a separate non-DSP amp. This should help to get the integration started and leave room for expansion later.
This is the minimum components you need to do this: BMW CIC NAVIGATION Retrofit Kit 328 335 M3 Radio LCI E90 E91 E92 E93
It could probably be found cheaper if you know where to look though. Once you have those parts, you could get the nav and media components working properly in your car without needing any CAN convertors or parsing the messages and such. Everything else is add-on. The only thing I can think of that you would need if mounting the main unit in the trunk area is an extension cable for the display.
It could probably be found cheaper if you know where to look though. Once you have those parts, you could get the nav and media components working properly in your car without needing any CAN convertors or parsing the messages and such. Everything else is add-on. The only thing I can think of that you would need if mounting the main unit in the trunk area is an extension cable for the display.
Here's another kit even cheaper than the previous one I posted: E90/E91/E92/E93 CIC Retrofit Kit FIRESALE [$1135/Shipped] - Bimmerfest - BMW Forums
Here's just the nav unit, but it's a 2012 with built-in Sirius for $450+shipping: x5 e70 and x6 e71 cic navigation cic headunit - Bimmerfest - BMW Forums
A few years ago I remember seeing a photo of an e38 with a retrofitted I-drive system out of an F01 7 series. It looked amazing integrated. It was done by someone in Germany.
This project is probably the closest anyone has come to integrating I drive into an e39: http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1533487-BMW-E39-iDrive-Project
Unfortunately it wasn't finished due to the car being totaled in an accident.
This project is probably the closest anyone has come to integrating I drive into an e39: http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1533487-BMW-E39-iDrive-Project
Unfortunately it wasn't finished due to the car being totaled in an accident.
Just did a bit more investigating of the wiring diagrams, and I found something very interesting. The pinout for the big black connector (very similar if not exactly the same as our e39 flat pin plug), is pretty much identical between the CCC/CIC and our radio module (BM53 for example). The only wires that are different are the TEL-ON and TEL-MUTE wires on the e39 are not used and instead, the CAN high and low wires are there (well, one is shifted one pin to an unused slot). This means that you could effectively just plug the CCC/CIC into your radio slot, connect the required antennas and display, and connect the four pins on the ibus controller to the CAN bus, power and ground on the CCC/CIC and you're in business. It's possible that the e39 black plug will fit right into the CIC, but if not, I think the retrofit kits that people sell have an adapter cable, much like the BM53 retrofit cables. This should get the basic system working.
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