Yeah, this was my favorite part [emoji23][emoji23]

Otherwise not too bad.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

 

In a sense this statement is correct.
Exhaust scavenging and intake charge inertia At high rpm combine to give close to 20% higher cylinder filling than actual displacement.
Achieving 120% volumetric efficiency is the same as running 3psi of boost on a super charger

 

Lol!!!

 

"In general, the S85 is an overall reliable engine if used wisely and regularly serviced as indicated by the manufacturer bean counters. Some frequent problems with the VANOS were signaled by clients. The connecting rod bearings are subject to premature wear-out and need replacement every 80,000 kilometers on average.

Like 15,000 mile oil intervals?

 

And saying it was derived from the P84/5 is such a stretch it's fictitious. The S85 was inspired by, and was a celebration of BMW's F1 efforts but to say any piece of the architecture beyond # of cylinders and bank angle is shared with a formula racing motor would be fabrication. Furthermore, I know I've read in factory documentation that the V10 was only selected because engineers decided on creating a high-output 5 liter motor for this celebration of motorsport, and with the optimum displacement for a cylinder being .5 liters the V10 architecture was elected. A bit too fanboy'ish and furthering of misconceptions people often have about this motor.

 

I count at least 4-pcs of F1 architecture in the s85, the main one being the bed plate of the E41/4

BMW Engines in Formula 1's V10 Era

The struggle to make a promising engine compete at the highest level of motorsport during its greatest modern era is a fascinating tale.

www.roadandtrack.com

 

More like 4 concepts. No different than saying V10, 90 deg, split-crankcase oh must be F1 - not really.

Split bedplate has been around (at least) since the 80's fyi...

 

Marine diesel engines have bed plates as well, is the M5 also derived from a tugboat?

 

is the M5 also derived from a tugboat?

Weighs as much as one...that's for sure.

 

The independent cooling for each cylinder head is also a bmw F1 feature

 

Volumetric efficiencies greater than 100% doesn’t mean supercharging per se, there are a few naturally aspirated production engines that have greater than 100% VE. Supercharging refers to a means of delivering air to the engine at pressures above atmospheric using artificial external means.

 

Just because certain concepts were shared, cooling circuits (and I assure you the BMW_SAUBER had vastly more than two cooling circuits like the s85, modern F1 cooling is fascinating, far beyond complicated and worth research), cylinder count, use of bed plate (so does the N54, yet people don’t call it an F1 engine) or bank angle is a distant cry from being right when you telling everyone at the bar your German taxi has an F1 motor in it. Furthermore, Formula 1 is the business of everyone copying everyone else’s great ideas and coming up with a few unique ones of their own. These concepts have been around and BMW may or may not have came up with some of them, but because BMW leveraged it in an all out 18k screamer and a road-going screamer, says nothing more than the the concepts were good for both a race engine and high performance road car engine. They have different goals, measures of success, efficiencies and lifespan.
In no way is the s85 a race on Sunday buy on Monday engine - that level of carryover ended pretty soon after we started optimizing cars to race and simply never happened in the pinnacle of Motorsport where motors in this era only had to hold out for a single qualy session or a couple thousand race/practice kilometers.

 

Some interesting reads on v10 F1 effort

https://www.fsb.unizg.hr/miv/MSUI/___Formula_1/10%20Years%20of%20BMW%20F1%20Engines.pdf

BMW F1 Engine Comparison: V8 vs. V10

F1 News - Comparison between V10 and V8 engines - BMW Sauber F1 Team - 01 March 2006

Comparison between V10 and V8 engines - BMW Sauber F1 Team - 01 March 2006 - Major Formula 1 News for the month of February 2006 includes F1 news on the teams, drivers and regulation changes.

newsonf1.net

 

Some interesting reads on v10 F1 effort

https://www.fsb.unizg.hr/miv/MSUI/___Formula_1/10%20Years%20of%20BMW%20F1%20Engines.pdf

nice find. I wish FIA didn't meddle with max fuel injection pressure throughout the years. There's a chance that some form of direct inject would have propagated through the system at some point. I'd gladly deal with carbon soot on the valves in exchange for the massive power and torque bumps.

 

I just want to say, that if you want to compare engines that are F1 inspired, they must first have 10 cylinders! Then we can talk !!!


Oh yeah, one other thang, naturally aspirated !!!

 

Came across this while reading some M5 literature, they at least were cast at the same plant (F1 engine and S85). Doesn't really matter other than neat history if you like such (I do).

 

You all are taking very large hits on very large bongs if you believe S85 is an 'F1' engine.
Yes it has 10 cylinders, yes it has ITB's, yes it burns gasoline, yes the castings were probably done at the same place (probably really Becker), yes the cranks were made at the same place (Alfing).
Thaaaat's about it.
Otherwise, it's a road car engine. F1 engines are constructed a bit differently and do use different technologies in the various engine subsystems.

 

But, but, but...

J/K

 

I love F1, unreasonably. Office walls are covered in Georgio Piola artwork and so many hours studying the technical and aero aspects of it's design...it's disheartening to see F1 engine tech compared to road car engine tech as means of bragging. The pneumatic valvetrains, depleted uranium counter-balance weights on the crank, the art of pulse-matched exhaust manifolds and as beautiful as they sound the N/A motors of the past are elementary compared to the modern hybrid P/U's and 45+% combustion efficiencies and has anyone heard of the turbulent jet ignition? Oh boy....

 

Elementary sure, I'd honestly hope so given the progression in time and technology. However, I think what makes any form of open wheel racing so exciting compared to nascar or even lmp1 and the like was/is the emotional aspect of the whole ordeal in addition to the technology.

Personally, I just can't get as invested or excited about teeny tiny hybrids. It's more about just performance to me. Not saying the new engines aren't impressive for what they are but I miss the theatre and drama that came with 90's F1 V12's to early 00's V10's.

Now I really only get that feeling at live NHRA events where I can feel the exhaust pulses in my chest.

Maybe I've just gotten bitter as I've aged and lost that child like wonder watching Senna and Schumacher go at it on a tiny CRT TV. Boo new stuff I want my old stuff.

 

but I miss the theatre and drama

...which is why I love endurance racing.

 

You’re not wrong about the emotional aspect. I’ll never forget my dad taking me to IMS to see Schumi take a win during the V8 era...the sound is burned into my gray matter for the rest of my life, how it felt in my chest.
The hybrids didn’t degrade my enjoyment watching them at COTA in 19 either, pretty cool being able to watch from the third row in the esses without earplugs...and the sound didn’t overwhelm the other senses when seeing just what these modern era cars can do.

 

If you aren't getting permanent hearing damage and breathing in carcinogens are you really experiencing racing?

 

Rumor is uncle Bernie is bringing back NA V8s for a few years...

 

 

Maybe BMW will get back in the game and then the 40 Jahre edition M5 will feature an F1 V8. 🤭

 

Bernie has less control in formula 1 these days then he does his bladder, at most they’ll get rid of the MGU-H to simplify the motors for the next gen cars...but most likely is a development freeze to control costs. With Honda leaving and Red Bull set to buy the intellectual property for the p/u from to remain a full works team, Mercedes happy with theirs as ever and Renault getting there, this is the route supported by the engine manufacturers as of late.
Support hybrid power units, lest we get no sound at all but dc motor whine!

 

State of F1/racing? I have an opinion on this matter.

I remember when KERS came in (pronounced correctly, just mis-spelled)...as a "cost reduction" and thinking huh?? We are going to bring in a zillion RPM little unit, all the rotor dynamics and power transmission issues it brings along, and it'll "make the sport better or reduce costs"? What? Now as to the current farce of the technical regulations, we have to do hybrids. Ok. Going from racing, you know, CARS to (functionally) U-boats sure as hell isn't a cost reduction. The development/manufacturing time alone on the battery packs is on the order of 2 years (at least as of a couple of years ago it was).

The frustrating part is this stupidity is percolating up into other formulae/series. Not only this but also making more components 'spec'. The best thing is it is all done under the BS virtue-signaling aegis of being more 'green'. Whatever.

I will say that I did get a chuckle in the dyno cell at a dyno rest point of 10k RPM, LOL.

 

F1 has devolved a lot since I was really into it, very few of the allowed technologies have real potential as tech transfer into modern production vehicles, in fact hybridization on production vehicles way before it was ever allowed in any form in and race series.

FIA and F1 take the position of having future technologies but have disallowed some of the most promising and innovative technologies that will continue to push the performance envelop for road going sports cars, namely active aero, active suspension, and active dynamics. I actually like LMP cars more than F1 nowadays. Certain “races” like Monaco are pointless, since there’s like no possibility for overtaking anywhere, so what’s the point of wheel to wheel racing.

I think the solution is to bring back Group B but require certain elements of safety to protect the drivers. keep the requirements for limited production requirements so silly ppl like me can buy one.

 

I was at COTA for the last two races (2018/2019) and while it is still enjoyable to be there for a race day, the cars do not sound like one would expect a car of that performance to sound. Watching current F1 races on TV however is tantamount to watching a glorified parade with maybe one or two race exceptions each year since the hybrid nonsense era started.

Safety is one thing (the halo) but being green is ridiculous, its racing not a tree hugging competition. Thank goodness so far there are still other series like endurance racing that still have proper engined cars that still race (i.e. pass by other means than a faster pit stop).