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There are some dyno places and operators who use these machines to great effect to give surprisingly very close to factory figures.

Operating a dyno is not just about strapping a car down and doing a power run. There is so much more to it.

The lack of attention to detail by 95% of dyno operators creates this problem of varying figures.

Sure, power figures will differ slightly between dynos of different makes but not by much unless your taking about a dynojet.

My dyno reads within 1 % of many other dyno's which are used properly and scientifcally as possible. These are different dyno makes too.

Here are some examples of stock cars I have dynoed:

E46 325i 192 bhp - dynoed at 193 bhp
E92 M3 414bhp - dynoed at 411 bhp
E39 528i 193 bhp - dynoed at 191 bhp
E46 M3 338bhp - dynoed at 335 bhp
E39 M5 400bhp - dynoed many and most between 395 and 410 bhp
E31 840i 286 bhp - dynoed at 280 bhp
E92 335d 286 bhp - dynoed at 290 bhp
..... etc etc .....the list goes on.

The setup and cooling are essential to get these figures. Not only this but intake temperatures have to be monitored from the ECU's point of view. Coolant temps and oil temps need to be analysed before a dyno run is attempted.

Tyre pressure and strap strength play a role also. Get these wrong and you'll get tyre slippage which will massively skew the figures and the shapes of the curves.
 
I agree.
The mapping should be done live ideally on a bespoke basis.
Every vehicle is different, even M5 which is especially so after 15 yrs of use.
A base map for the main load sites can be achieved on the rolling road & can then be optimised on the road where ambient temp,
air flow & pressure is real world.
However, mapping with greater heat soaked air is no bad thing initially.
Alot of time can be saved by inital setting up on a rolling road that is operated
carefully & with operator skill.

Altitude & atmospherics are rogue elements that mean a conservative approach to the overal calibration.

RPM limits beyond 7,500 rpm with std crank, bolts & production balance !
Not recommended.

Ascertaining the true condition of the engine prior to any planned tuning work
is recommended.


Cheers
Real world intake temperatures, coolant temps and oil temps can be replicated on a dyno on some cars.

In the case of the E34 M5 it's not actually very difficult with correct fan placement and one very big powerful fan.

I have seen onroad temperatures for the above and can replicate them on the dyno.

Road mapping for fuelling is quite easy but the M5 does not really require much help in this region as the fuelling is usually nearly always 14.7 AFR under light to medium loads.
Sometimes they do run a little rich under full load but this is easily fixed. Usually it's best to leave them running a little rich. Most of time time it's only costing around 3-5 bhp and I'd rather lose this little bit of power in place for some additional safety for the engine.

The ignition timing mapping MUST be done on a dyno. You can achieve minimum best timing far more safely and accurately which equals a relatively safe mapset. This level of ignition timing I have found on the S38 to be way way before detonation will ever occur and it is det we are trying to avoid.

I find there is little point in revving past 7250 rpm, the power will start to fall around here anyway and revving past this yields no extra BHP. I have dyno evidence to back this up.
 
Oh my God, is this is a custom made air box? Who sells them?
That carbon airbox will be so loud on an S38 engine that would think it would be pretty much impossible to run the car as a daily driver.

I have a carbon intake system on my car which just replaces the intake muffler and that is LOUD under load!

The standard plenum in my opinion is a master piece as far as all round performance and torque are concerned. The resonator flap is just pure engineering excellence.
 
E46 325i 192 bhp - dynoed at 193 bhp
E92 M3 414bhp - dynoed at 411 bhp
E39 528i 193 bhp - dynoed at 191 bhp
E46 M3 338bhp - dynoed at 335 bhp
E39 M5 400bhp - dynoed many and most between 395 and 410 bhp
E31 840i 286 bhp - dynoed at 280 bhp
E92 335d 286 bhp - dynoed at 290 bhp
..... etc etc .....the list goes on.
So are the figures that you have been quoting actually measured at the rear wheels, or extrapolated crankshaft figures? From the table above, i'm assuming the latter, which would explain your high figures. The figures that I quoted for my car were was was measured at the rear wheels, and I'm assuming that the same thing is the case for DaytonaM5

John
 
Mine are estimated flywheel figures. I can quote wheel figures too but BMW do not quote these.

I am trying to show the correlation of what BMW quoted for these cars and what I got.

If you look at the variance it's only within a few % +/-.

My point is that dyno's can be very close even when using crankshaft figures if used properly.

I don't personally get to hung up on the final peak figures, I use the dyno more for comparing different maps, upgrades and live mapping. It's the difference the changes make which count and enable you to make a decision as to whether or not the changes are worthwhile.
 
Yes, the 3.6 does a self test on start
up.

For the 3.8, warm up the car normally, open bonnet and rev past 4k rpm, if the resonance flap does nothing it is not functioning properly.

Lantz
 
Thanks alot, i am going to run this thru with the person who does everything on my car and see what we can come out with, i also have a company who tuned two of my previous cars wich were 525 tds both, they did a good job but i don't know how they would do on the 3.8 M5 as i am not sure what technique they would use on it.
but here is a link to their website anyway http://www.autotuneheinz.be
check em out and let me know how they look, thanks!

I use WINOLS to program oem sofware. What we do is take out the eeprom, read it, put it on WINOLS software, reprogram/make changes/load the new program to the eeprom, and put the eeprom back. See the changes.

This explanation wont be liked by tuners, as i am explaining the details, but this is how it works on S38B38. If it was a S54 (M3), you dont need to remove the eeprom. just load the program through the obd port.

The main issue is to know where the full throttle and part load fuel and ignition maps are located inside the oem software, and this is found with winols software.
 
Mine are estimated flywheel figures. I can quote wheel figures too but BMW do not quote these.

I am trying to show the correlation of what BMW quoted for these cars and what I got.

If you look at the variance it's only within a few % +/-.

My point is that dyno's can be very close even when using crankshaft figures if used properly.

I don't personally get to hung up on the final peak figures, I use the dyno more for comparing different maps, upgrades and live mapping. It's the difference the changes make which count and enable you to make a decision as to whether or not the changes are worthwhile.
Yeah, that makes sense, that explains the discrepancy. There is no doubt that a dyno can be close, but my point is that without any defined and enforsed standards for calibrations, how do you know that the dyno is accurate? Here in Australia, all scales in Delis and Butchers need to be calibrated every 6 months, and then sealed with a lead seal. The technician who is calibrating them needs to be licenced as a Weights and Measures tecnician, and has to re-sit an exam every 3 years. The weights he uses need to be cabilrated every 3 months against standard weights that are kept under luck and key, and which are in turn subject to random checks from the authorities. All this ensures that when you are buying 250g of Mozzarella for your pizza, you are getting 250g. Same thing goes for petrol pumps etc.

But Dynos, at least here in Australia, are not treated the same way. What are the defined standards for calibration? What are the qualifications of the person doing the cailibration? How are the measures calibrated?

But you are 100% right, no point getting hung up about peak figures, dynos are far more useful as relative measures as you've pointed out

Cheers

john
 
Yes, the 3.6 does a self test on start
up.

For the 3.8, warm up the car normally, open bonnet and rev past 4k rpm, if the resonance flap does nothing it is not functioning properly.

Lantz
In both cases you are missing the SPEED-SIGNAL,,
it was like that on my S38B38,,

AND,,,,, if the flaps is not working ((the speed-signal is missing )) you are loosing a lot of performance from the engine ,, :grrrr:
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
In both cases you are missing the SPEED-SIGNAL,,
it was like that on my S38B38,,

AND,,,,, if the flaps is not working ((the speed-signal is missing )) you are loosing a lot of performance from the engine ,, :grrrr:
is this speed the speed of the engine? is there a wire coming from the tach to the resonator?
 
In both cases you are missing the SPEED-SIGNAL,,
it was like that on my S38B38,,

AND,,,,, if the flaps is not working ((the speed-signal is missing )) you are loosing a lot of performance from the engine ,, :grrrr:
What do you mean?

The two tests I mentioned have worked for many during resonance flap diagnosis.

Lantz
 
That carbon airbox will be so loud on an S38 engine that would think it would be pretty much impossible to run the car as a daily driver.

I have a carbon intake system on my car which just replaces the intake muffler and that is LOUD under load!

The standard plenum in my opinion is a master piece as far as all round performance and torque are concerned. The resonator flap is just pure engineering excellence.
Do you have any pics or vidoes of you car in action? Would be great to hear the sound.

Lantz
 
In both cases you are missing the SPEED-SIGNAL,,
it was like that on my S38B38,,

AND,,,,, if the flaps is not working ((the speed-signal is missing )) you are loosing a lot of performance from the engine ,, :grrrr:
In my car (3.8, anufactured 1992-04-26) resonance flap does absolutely nothing when car is sitting still, no matter how I blip the throttle. While driving that 12V solenoid valve bypasses vacuum towards the flap when rpm's are from appr. range of 2500-4300 and >6700->, hard to estimate exactly since engine revs quite fast on 2nd gear :biggrinbounce:

We just hooked up two meters hose to line betwen valve and flap, on the other end was a vacuum meter. Seems a little bit funny, but works.
 
Do you have any pics or vidoes of you car in action? Would be great to hear the sound.

Lantz
I will try and get a video made this week.

I had my business partner following me on the m1 today and he called me to say the car was throwing flames!

The sound these engines are capable of making with the right intake is absolutely phenominal. Think almost CSL loud but with a deeper pitch.

I was initially very hesitant about fitting one because of concerns about ruining the MAF and losing power.

After some controlled testing on the dyno it made an extra 3 bhp at peak with no loss in power in the rpm and the filter is dry on this system so no ruined MAF.

It's on my car permanently now :)
 
is this speed the speed of the engine? is there a wire coming from the tach to the resonator?
If the ECU s not getting a signal about the speed of the car,,, how fast the car is going.. there is a powerloss in the engine ,, THATS it,, and it have a lot to say in a S38 and S50
 
My Flywheel Figures:

Image


Made 283bhp @ Wheels with the chip and Carbon Intake.

The dyno RPM calibration was not 100% (you never get it right when it's your own car being dynoed!!). Car actually revved to 7200rpm stock with deCAT and around 7350 with the intake and chip.
This effects the torque figure / graph a little by reducing it because I'm showing to rev a little further than I actually am.
 
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