Did they check the bushings that hold the exhaust above the center support? #6 on the drawing.

 

Update - had the car at Indy #2 this morning. Originally, their thought was to change the transmission fluid back to OEM from Red Line as a start. I already had the appt so I thought why not go in and discuss a lot of the stuff in this thread. They put the car up, and without prompting, started looking at the mounts. They took off the connecting support (#5) and noticed some wear on the exhaust. It was in the shape of an oval, maybe pea-sized or slightly bigger, driver side. They didn't have replacement mounts (#6) in stock so they put some shims in to lower the plate. We decided to hold off on the transmission fluid change for now. And, they didn't charge me a dime.

I then drove to the office which is all highway and played around with the gears and RPMs. I'd say the problem is still there but I'd also say it's better than it was. They ordered up some mounts just in case.

I'm cautiously optimistic we're on to something. It might be time for a mount-a-palooza. I also got a look at the guibo, I know this is DRod's pet peeve but it looked really fresh. More to come.....

 

BMW Dealer #1 mentioned that as a possible cause, i.e., the bushings could be failing leading to the exhaust sitting on the transmission. I honestly don't know if that's been checked or not but will bring that up.

 

The trickiest thing about vibrations, particularly on these cars, is that it's usually more than one thing contributing to it. I would check transmission mount bushings and engine mount bushings as well. People have also noted that a vibration around 2500 is caused by the oil filter and power steering reservoir mount bushings.

I had significant vibration in my driveline/shifter area which was probably a combination of mount bushings and the guibo which was shredded pretty bad. CSB looked fine, but I installed a re-manufactured drive-shaft just to make sure everything was refreshed.

 

Let me ask this though - if it's the mounts/bushings, how would those contribute to the feel I get of a wheel turning and hitting something, at the same point/frequency in each revolution? Wouldn't bad mounts/bushings simply cause a "standard" vibration?

 

I had an RPM based vibration on my car that I felt through the center console. It turned out to be something on the exhaust banging the under side of the car. My mechanic simply bent whatever was too close and hitting the underside out of the way.

So it could be this, or one of those bushings as mentioned above. See if you can get under the car and check the exhaust for clearance. Also, check your exhaust weld hangers.

 

OK, this is making sense and I appreciate the out of the box thinking, i.e., not centered on the driveline components. However, the vibration only comes up when the car is warm, not when the car is dead cold. I will say though that it's pretty rare for me to be in 6th when all the lights are on the tach so I can't 100% say that if the car is cold the vibration goes away, but I can say it's not really there in 3rd or 4th when the lights are on.

 

I've noticed that bushings that are starting to wear out tend to have noticeable symptoms as they heat up. They operate pretty normal when cold. After a while (when really bad) they have symptoms whether hot or cold.

 

BMW Dealer #1 = clueless, sorry but everytime I hear about what a great relationship someone has with the service manager/advisor/sales person what usually follows is a bunch of nonsense.

BMW Dealer #2 = clueless, but at least they didn't try to sell you something.

Indy #1 = OK, if they pulled the exhaust to actually check the center bearing, everyone likes to do some high margin fluid swapping

Indy #2 = clueless, but at least they only tried to sell you a few hundred $ in BMW fluids

Esteemed magazine guy - did you talk about ow the bearing is supposed to be pre-loaded?

Obviously you are on your own, the only way to figure out what is going on is to take a look under the car yourself and see what is going on. Odds are it is the center exhaust hanger or the driveshaft/guibo, which are failry easy to spot. Rule that out before you even think about the transmission.

Good luck.

 

Trust me, the thought of a new transmission was creating a massive pit in my stomach. I'm about 99% sure Indy #1 didn't take the exhaust out when they looked at the center bearing. Only question I would have though is from what I posted before - if it's the exhaust hanger, why would it not present itself, or at a minimum present itself less, when the car was cold?

EDIT: Saw Matt's posting that came in as I was responding. OK, makes sense.

 

i'm in a very similar situation... not sure about 6th gear vib but definitely feeling it when i am hard on the throttle at lower RPM in 2nd,3rd,4th gear... PO complained about the situation and had it checked out by a shop, they checked the exhaust clearance and even put new exhaust hangers in... i'll reinspect their work and any other obvious contact areas when i'm under the car this weekend to replace the PS reservoir and diff fluid. will report back any findings.

 

Is yours a straight vibration or does it have a cadence/regular frequency to it like my analogy of a wheel spinning and something hitting the wheel at the exact spot every time.

 

Did the backup test in my garage at work. The shifter didn't jerk and there were no new sounds. I will say that the vibration did come up thru the shifter, albeit muted, but at the same cadence as the vibration does when I'm driving normally.

I took a video on the way home. Surprisingly, you can hear what the vibration sounds like, particularly when I put in the clutch or let my foot off the gas. The shifter vibrates at that exact cadence.

Yes, I do use the cupholders which is probably why I'm on my 2nd set.

BMW E39 M5 vibration noise at 2K RPMs - YouTube

 

I took a video on the way home. Surprisingly, you can hear what the vibration sounds like, particularly when I put in the clutch or let my foot off the gas. The shifter vibrates at that exact cadence.

BMW E39 M5 vibration noise at 2K RPMs - YouTube

very similar to mine.

 

I'm afraid I don't have any experience with that noise. Mine was more of a physical vibration - less sound. What does it feel like? Your shifter looks great by the way.

 

Thanks for the props on the shifter! Standard F10 shifter using the e39 boot.

As for what it feels like thru the shifter, say you had a very thin and flat piece of wood and you rested your hand on that wood. Under the wood is a wheel with a very small nub on the outer surface. Put the wheel so it's touching the wood and start spinning the wheel. You can feel the wheel spinning around and when the nub passes the wood you feel a slight bump.

Other thing to note. I've also noticed a whoom-whoom resonating sound as well through the same RPM band (2-2.5K). I was hoping it'd show up in the video but not so much.

 

How would I know upon visual inspection that the bearing is/was bad? Wouldn't you have to somehow simulate the driving conditions in order to confirm?

 

That would probably make it easier to know it's bad. You can still see cracks, etc. from a simple look though. You can also verify if there is butyl installed above the bearing. Mine didn't have it (or the sound at the time), but I put the butyl strip in anyways with new driveshaft. It could be as simple as loose nuts. I think I remember someone saying that was all that was wrong with theirs. The trouble is that you have to remove exhaust and heat shields to see/fix it.

 

A couple of months ago I started noticing a vibration coming up through the shifter at around 2000-3000 RPMs. Since then I've replaced the tires (needed to go anyway) and the vibration is still there. The problem presents itself when the car is up to temperature and is under load. If the car is dead cold I get nothing. It's most predominant in 6th gear right at 2000 RPMs but is there in 3rd-5th as well. It's probably there in 1st and 2nd as well but it's harder to pinpoint. The tempo of the vibration appears constant no matter what gear I'm in.

I think what a lot of people are missing here is, based on the description above, the noise is engine speed related, not drive shaft speed related. The OP hears the noise at 2000-3000 rpm no matter what gear he is in. So I wouldn't worry about driveline stuff, I'd be concentrating on engine speed stuff, like those pesky oil filter mounts. From the video, it's also very dependent on engine load, but not likely to be from the engine itself, IMO, so maybe a transmission bearing on the input shaft (that whoom-whoom sound on the video is quite common when a ball/roller bearing is going bad). Or the exhaust mounts (engine torqued over under load bringing exhaust closer to the support). Or the engine mounts.

OP, if you have an hour or two to spare, read this. It describes just about every cause for noise and vibration on these cars. Spoiler alert - the OP never does get to the bottom of it.


http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/132848-anyone-solve-3k-vibration.html

 

I think what a lot of people are missing here is, based on the description above, the noise is engine speed related, not drive shaft speed related. The OP hears the noise at 2000-3000 rpm no matter what gear he is in. So I wouldn't worry about driveline stuff, I'd be concentrating on engine speed stuff, like those pesky oil filter mounts. From the video, it's also very dependent on engine load, but not likely to be from the engine itself, IMO, so maybe a transmission bearing on the input shaft (that whoom-whoom sound on the video is quite common when a ball/roller bearing is going bad). Or the exhaust mounts (engine torqued over under load bringing exhaust closer to the support). Or the engine mounts.

OP, if you have an hour or two to spare, read this. It describes just about every cause for noise and vibration on these cars. Spoiler alert - the OP never does get to the bottom of it.


http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/132848-anyone-solve-3k-vibration.html

I actually read through that thread quite a bit before posting. It was the fact that he never got down to the bottom of it that was discouraging.

I actually replaced the oil filter mounts a couple of months ago. The whoom-whoom has been there for a few months and was happening before the vibration started happening. Admitting my lack of transmission knowledge, would that bearing be inside the transmission or external (I suspect inside).

I'm going back to see Indy #2 next Tuesday to see if they have any ideas.....perhaps I'll have them check the engine and exhaust mounts as well.

 

Even though you replaced the oil filter mounts, check the banjo bolt on the filter housing close to the inner fender is not touching the fender. I had to pull the filter off to the side and massage the inner fender gently with a ball peen hammer to get some clearance.

Yes, the two bearings that support the input shaft are inside the transmission. If they are the cause of the noise, you could just learn to live with it because the bearings will probably last for years.

I have the noise and shifter vibration at 2500 rpm but not the whoom-whoom. Try pushing the shifter forward gently if in 2nd or 4th or backwards if in 3rd or 5th. Do you feel the vibration a lot more? I do, but I don't know what it means.

I changed the engine, transmission, and exhaust mounts but no difference. Like nightkrawler says in the War and Peace thread, it may be just a characteristic of the car.

Long shot, but it could be VANOS. Bad VANOS on one bank would cause different combustion pressures from the other bank and unbalance.

And as far as the noise is concerned, check for exhaust leaks around the header/pipe flanges and splits in the seams just in front of the cats.

If your indy fixes it, let us know.

 

Listen to 68FB. The fact that it sounds like a wheel turning (certain frequency) doesn't necessarily rule out areas that aren't usually associated with "wheel turning."

 

This morning on my way to work there was traffic. I noticed that it happens in 1st gear as well and I could replicate it at will.

Also, when I was at a light I decided to rev the engine with the clutch in. I don't know if I'm just hypersensitive to the issue, but I would say the vibration was definitely there, at the same cadence, albeit muted. I pulled into the garage, put it in N, and took this video. If you compare the cadence heard here to the cadence in my earlier video, they appear identical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlIUv33krzQ

I'm having a bit of a hard time with the idea it could be one of the mounts. It would seem to me that if it was a mount(s) there wouldn't be a very regular cadence to the vibration, it would instead be a bit more random?

I pulled slightly back on the shifter while in 3rd/5th and slightly forward while in 2nd/4th. No appreciable difference in the vibration.

I'm wondering if it's time to focus on the engine as the source vs. the driveline......

 

thanks for taking the time to make and post the videos, once i get my gauge cluster back i'll do the same.

 

After thinking more about my new discovery, I went downstairs with a friend and took the attached. Car was still a little warm, about half the lights are on. There's a couple of spots where you can hear the vibration (though at this point I'm not sure if I can keep calling it a vibration). That is, you can hear something at the same cadence as the vibration. At the 11-13 second mark you can hear it slightly. The 29-35 second mark is a little more pronounced. VANOS?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoO1GId0wpQ

 

Ok so I heard it in the 29-35 second range and I'm not gonna be very helpful. The fact it emerges within distinct RPM ranges, isn't constant, happens when revving in neutral...

Real PITA.

but it does narrow it down alot. You can pretty much remove steering/driveshaft/transmission from the list. And to me, this sounded like something with a bearing that's failing.

A relatively simple, cheap, and DIY friendly thing I'd recommend is to take off your pulleys and inspect them and then re-grease them. I mention this because it's so easy, they can be the source of weird noises when they dry out, and it's helpful to eliminate things AND do something useful.

IMHO, do a quick fan-clutch test to make sure it's out too. I doubt that's the case, but again it's so easy and those videos make it impossible to determine direction of sound. Why miss something easy in the hunt for something difficult?

After those easy things you are getting into VANOS/Timing Chain Noises based upon what I heard in the video between 27-35 seconds in.

last real question: Did whomever was revving the engine have the clutch pedal depressed to the floor during this?

 

Joe! Great to hear from you, thanks for chiming in.

Based on the fact that the cadence of "vibration" at idle is the same as when driving, I'm inclined to agree with you that it isn't a drivetrain issue. The noise is certainly louder when driving but of course there's more load on the engine. By the same token, I'd be really, really, surprised if the fan clutch would produce the problem. First, it's pretty cold here in STL so I'm not even sure how much the fan is spinning up anyway. Plus, something so small, producing something so distinct....seems like a longshot. THAT SAID, when I was at Indy #1 last week getting new thrust rods and rear upper arms, they did say my fan clutch was leaking a bit and advised a swap when the weather got warmer.

When my friend was revving the engine, I'm pretty sure the clutch pedal was not in, but I will ask him.

 

I threw fan clutch out there because I can't tell direction of sound and what not and it's really simple to test and a rotational part. Do the newspaper (or bare hand) test to see if it's failed or not. If it passes, great. If it fails, you need to replace it anyway.

 

And just for good measure here's another one of the engine when it was up to temperature. Will be doing the newspaper test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zgBtkK1-2c

 

i require a little edification here... what is this 'newspaper test' ?

 

Lots of posts on this both on this board and other places. Basically, when the car is up to running temp, i.e., gauge is in the middle, take a piece of rolled up newspaper and slowly stick it in the fan. If the fan is stopped by the newspaper, you need a new fan clutch.

 

ah okay, the test is easy enough to understand, just never heard it referred to as 'newspaper test'... maybe fan clutch viscosity test

 

Deleted.

 

Are you having any shifting or clutch-related problems other than the vibration/noise?

 

Not really. There's the usual tightness, particularly in 2nd, when the car is ice cold, and the shifter is notchy through 4th gear, but it's not like it's getting stuck in gear or grinding as the gears are changed. When the clutch was replaced over the summer they did not replace the flywheel as it was in good shape.

 

I'm still wondering why the vibration is being felt through the shifter. This could be a longshot, but I want to throw this out at least. There is an example of occasional complaints concerning the transmission, clutch, engine or acoustics reported. In most of these cases, there were engine or transmission related repairs which resulted in missing or damaged dowels necessary for centering the engine/transmission (at least according to field investigations). The effect is that flush alignment of the flywheel with respect to the transmission input shaft/torque converter is no longer guaranteed. The following complaints can occur as a result:

- Clutch judder/poor disengagement
- Transmission input shaft produces noise
- Gears jump
- Snagging gearshift