Don't pay it a second thought man.

I OWN a GTO Pontiac 5.7 Litre (Holden Monaro).

Whilst a nice shopping car for the wife, even she admits it falls WAY short of the beast.

It is uncomfortable. It doesn't Stop, It doesn't go and it certainly doesn't handle.

It looks nice, and it was cheap. Thats it. Lets call a spade a spade. Its a nice cheap car. Its no BEAST. Not even close.

It does not know the meaning of the word, smooth or refinement. It is raw, and rough and cheap, just as you would expect.

Remember I OWN one of these and a Beast. I drive both. They are nothing alike. Nor should they be.

Obviously, those guys have never OWNED a Beast. :cheers:

 

Ycchan- Thats a bit ignorant of them. Instead of discussing the differences between getting 400hp out of a 4.7L and getting 400hp out of a 6.0L they had to go and bash your car. I know your not going to let it bother you but it is still aggravating. I personally like the M5 better and I find it more amazing getting 400hp out of a NA motor with less than 5.0L. Who cares about gas mileage? If you were worried about gas mileage you would be driving a toyota prius (55mpg average). Did anyone say anything about BMWs engineering to get lots of hp out of a smaller engine and still have a decent amount of tq?

Enjoy your amazing car! :wroom:

 

Pontiac? pffffftttttt

Numbers schmumbers,

If two people valet park at a restaurant, one with a Pontiac and the other with a M5, which one do you think will be parked out front and which one will be in the back with the minivans and other family cars?

 

Re: Pontiac? pffffftttttt

Numbers schmumbers,

If two people valet park at a restaurant, one with a Pontiac and the other with a M5, which one do you think will be parked out front and which one will be in the back with the minivans and other family cars?

We have a winner. :flag:

Three weeks ago I was at the Gold Coast Sheraton Mirage.

I enjoyed a fine meal with friends, and when we returned to the lobby, Guess What was on display for all the world to see, right out front of the main entrance doors. :hihi:

Master YODA.

Adfdeluca, you are quite right. cherrsagai

 

Re: Pontiac? pffffftttttt

Numbers schmumbers,

If two people valet park at a restaurant, one with a Pontiac and the other with a M5, which one do you think will be parked out front and which one will be in the back with the minivans and other family cars?

Enough said! Do we need to say more? Mark just backed it up!

I enjoyed a fine meal with friends, and when we returned to the lobby, Guess What was on display for all the world to see, right out front of the main entrance doors.

Master YODA.

hiha Congrats to Master YODA (best name for any car!)

 

Ycchan- Thats a bit ignorant of them. Instead of discussing the differences between getting 400hp out of a 4.7L and getting 400hp out of a 6.0L they had to go and bash your car. I know your not going to let it bother you but it is still aggravating. I personally like the M5 better and I find it more amazing getting 400hp out of a NA motor with less than 5.0L. Who cares about gas mileage?

First, on the engine, then on the car.

On the engine: by and large, they're right. Specific output (HP/liter) does not matter. It does not matter. The M5's S62 is a nice piece of work. It's powerful, makes great torque, has a nice broad usable rev range, feels and sounds great. But the GM LS1/LS6 family engines do that, too. They weigh about the same, and because they don't carry bulky DOHC valvegear they're physically smaller - you could never fit the S62 into an engine compartment as low as the Corvette's.

Because they're built on the same production line that GM's truck engines are, they're also dirt-cheap to make - I estimate an LS6 costs 1/4 as much to build as the S62 (you can get a complete LS6 crate motor for under $7000, and I bet there's a fair amount of profit in that number) and because they're not hand-built GM can crank out as many as they want. They've also got remarkably good part-throttle BSFC (HP/unit of fuel consumed) and while you may not think this matters, it's critical to GM when it comes to the US government's CAFE numbers. And, because they're common and cheap, they're cheap to modify - you can build a complete 7-liter, 500HP+ engine with a torque curve like the Sierras for less than what Dinan's M5 bolt-ons cost.

The S62 is a great piece of engineering, but the LS1/LS6 family is a triumph of engineering economy, and as far as I'm concerned they're probably the all-around best gasoline passenger-car engines built anywhere, by anyone, right now.

Now, on the car: MIB notes that the Holden Monaro isn't the car the M5 is. Agreed. But compared to the utter trash GM and Ford put out in the US, it's incredibly good.

Furthermore, the Monaro is something that used to define the American car business, and is today common as dirt in Australia, but pretty much ceased to exist in the US twenty-five years ago: an attractively-priced, usefully-sized rear-drive car with a big torquey V8 lump under the hood.

And, when Ford's about to release a new Mustang with a stick-axle rear suspension not even as good as the twenty-year-old design Ford recently quit using in Australia, the Monaro's suspension starts to look awfully good by US standards.

 

I can't believe they would make the GTO without the hood scoops.

MJ
'03 Black/Black

 

I think you deserved to get flamed over there :hihi:

Going on their board and s*** talking about the fact that it takes them 5.7L to make 400HP isn't a fair comparison... GM does it at a third of the cost.

Consider the fact that the 360 Modena gets 400BHP out of 3.6L... 112BHP/Liter. Now by that standard, the S62 doesn't look very impressive either. Of course in this case, it is BMW doing it at a third of the cost. It's all relative to your perspective.

I owned a Vette and own an M5 now... both cars have a spectacular amount of power; the Vette does it less expensively and the M5 does it with class. There really is no fair way to compare the two... totally different animals.

Now if only I could get my hands on a 360 I could complete this comparison...

 

The other factor relative to specific output of course is area under the torque curve. The Ferrari motor makes nice peak numbers but doesn't have the midrange torque to pull a 3700lb sedan around.

 

If two people valet park at a restaurant, one with a Pontiac and the other with a M5, which one do you think will be parked out front and which one will be in the back with the minivans and other family cars?

Maybe in OZ. In Northern California, both cars would get put out back, probably right next to a jacked up pickup truck whose doors would be opened and put a dent in yours. People don't know or appreciate the difference. Oh yeah, and you'd have nothing left of your clutch and you'd have 40-50 more miles on the odometer, ala Ferris Bueller. grrrrrrr

There's nothing wrong with Chevy engines, and it is amazing what they've managed to get out of a pushrod design. But the cars are not even in the same class. There's more to a car than pure hp and skidpad numbers. hmmm

 

What forum was this? If it was an American Car or Pontiac/GM forum, then I wouldnt expect anything less from the other users.

As stated before, Chevy makes a great car. I have one sitting in my driveway, a GMC Yukon XL, with a 8.1L that can pull a 12,000lb boat very quickly over the Rockies and to Lake Powell. In any area of cars, whether it be motorsport or luxury, GM has the resources and ability to destroy any competition (the same goes for Ford, but on a smaller level...GT40 vs Ferrari). If Chevy wanted to win an F1 championship next year, they could do it. If they wanted to build a better luxury car than a Maybach or a Rolls, they could do it in a few months. But as the worlds largest company, they have taken a middle of the road approach. This is how they make money. Im a die-hard Bimmerhead, but I make a yearly trip to Detroit to the Woodward cruise where you see Detroit iron from the beginning of cars to the latest cars; some cars have a good 1500hp and a sound that will make you go nuts. With BMW in a dilemma with the HP wars (this is obvious with the new M5 going V10 and the M3GTR going V8), you might see bigger displacement from BMW, similar to the American "no replacement for displacement." If the M5 can make a stellar 550hp out of 6 litres, and from a $20,000 engine, but I can go to my local Chevy dealer and pick up a 572 crate engine that makes a comfy 870hp and enough torque to make you eat dirt for $8,000....guess which one wins?

Lets also not forget the GM directed Lotus/Opel Omega...a car produced in 1991 that would give an E39 M5 a good run for its money, and maybe even beat a stock E39 M5. Sure, it has turbos, but BMW would not have won the 1983 F1 championship without a turbo....

 

.

It is uncomfortable. It doesn't Stop, It doesn't go and it certainly doesn't handle.
QUOTE]

Mark my friend... you allow your wife to drive in something that is that unsafe :hihi:

If you were a loving and devoted husband / father you would get yor wife a BMW too.. need not be the beast but at least get her something that handles well and stops.. :blink:

 

.

It is uncomfortable. It doesn't Stop, It doesn't go and it certainly doesn't handle.
QUOTE]

Mark my friend... you allow your wife to drive in something that is that unsafe :hihi:

If you were a loving and devoted husband / father you would get yor wife a BMW too.. need not be the beast but at least get her something that handles well and stops.. :blink:

Hey Andre my man,

I have to sledge it, because I want to buy her a Mini Beast. :hihi: She thinks a mini Beast is too much to use as a shopping trolley deflector, thats why she wanted the Monaro.

Boy do those trolleys bounce of it. hiha

Seriously, I was only comparing to Yoda or a stock Beast.

As a Normal vehicle its O.K, but it has no place in a comparison to a Beast.

It shines against Toyota's and Fords. But you soon notice its short comings when compared to a BMW.

Its a Great CHEAP car. Nothing More, nothing Less.

Is it worth its sticker price? Yes, both vehicles are worth their sticker price. Does it compare to a Beast, NO. The Beast is more than Tripple its price.

Tripple the comfort, tripple the handling, 10 Fold on refinement, and tripple the smoothness.

No its not tripple the Power, but not much is. cherrsagai

P.S. Chuckc is getting a big head start on you buddy.

 

The Monaro's (GTO) use the LS1 motor. I'm not sure of the exact details, but it's the Canadian built item and has unfortunately not had much of a good reputation down here. I know four people close to me who have bought them and the list of troubles is rediculously wrong. They're pretty much just a bits car, built on the cheap to be sold cheap. And I guess they do the job, but to compare them to a beast is laughable.

 

The Monaro's (GTO) use the LS1 motor. I'm not sure of the exact details, but it's the Canadian built item and has unfortunately not had much of a good reputation down here. I know four people close to me who have bought them and the list of troubles is rediculously wrong. They're pretty much just a bits car, built on the cheap to be sold cheap. And I guess they do the job, but to compare them to a beast is laughable.

Hey Dom,

Nice to see another Aussie on the Board. I thought the Monaro's were built in OZ? Are you just referring to the Motors? Mine has the LS1 5.7 L Chevy Motor.

I saw some at the drive centre with the GTO Nose. They are for export only.

cherrsagai

 

The other factor relative to specific output of course is area under the torque curve. The Ferrari motor makes nice peak numbers but doesn't have the midrange torque to pull a 3700lb sedan around.

3700 lb. sedan? I think most of us wish our M5 was 3700 lbs, since I'm assuming you were talking about the M5. Unless you were referring to the car without the motor. I agree that if you go to another forum and level any criticism, just like others get when they come here and we are much more "mature" than most, you will & deserve to get flamed. Even if you owned a McLaren F-1, they would say, "a million + for that, I can modifiy a C-5 and get real close for 100 grand." Be comfortable in knowing you have what is to considered by many to be the best all-around sports sedan in the world. There are and will continue to be faster, cheaper, roomier, different looking, etc. cars out there, and all the arguing in the world won't convince someone it's any better than they think it is. Especially if you try and demean some aspect of what they drive or aspire to.

 

Hey Dom,

Nice to see another Aussie on the Board. I thought the Monaro's were built in OZ? Are you just referring to the Motors? Mine has the LS1 5.7 L Chevy Motor.

I saw some at the drive centre with the GTO Nose. They are for export only.

cherrsagai

Thanks dude! Good to be here, this place seems like a fun informative board. :cheers:

Nah, I was reffering to just the motors. It was a economical decision on GM's part to go with the Canadian built motor, since our dollar was the same as theirs at the time. Unfortunately it's bitten back at them and I think they should of stuck with developing the cast iron Holden motor, IMHO.

I know they're for export only and all, but, how long do you think it will be before some crafty lads get their hands on those GTO noses to bolt onto their current Monaros? :haha2:

Cheers,
Cam

 

first, I agree with the others saying its not really commendable to go to another forum and brag. I made that mistake once and I realized right after posting it was a mistake. It was more a rant on the new Bangle designs- but its the same concept.

second, I dont think you should get upset because people dont agree that the S62 is the end all be all. Youre allowed your opinion, dont get mad just because everyone doeesnt agree. As a matter of fact, I hope people can digest this notion, because (get ready for a Bangle rant) with the E60, youre going to hear a lot of- "the M5 might drive great, but I cant get past the looks on the outside and inside and the idrive." And while this conversation is interesting in an academic sense, I am picking up good knowledge on the LS1/6 engine and car engines in general, lets face it- you really shouldnt buy any vehicle because its got the "highest output/L" or other techical stat- unless maybe youre towing or hauling. You should want what feels best to you.

I want to also say that while GM takes the middle of the road approach- maybe too often- the new Corvette looks the business and will have the power to match. I wish they did more to the interior, but, the C6 looks like it will be a wonderful Corvette.

My last comment has to do with parking at a resturant. Which car gets parked out front? do you really care about that?! First off, you shouldnt. Secondly, you should never valet park- unless you personally know the valet. You wouldnt give the keys to your car that guy or gal if he or she was standing on the street- but they put a bow-tie on and now you give them the keys?! no no no no! There are two resturants we go to that require valet parking. One even always has a collection of Ferraris and Porsches out front. we take the X5 to those resturants- and I cringe every time I give the keys over. I know valet parking is almost a way of life in some places- but it shouldnt be.

 

DELETED

 

Re: Pontiac? pffffftttttt

We have a winner. :flag:

Three weeks ago I was at the Gold Coast Sheraton Mirage.

I enjoyed a fine meal with friends, and when we returned to the lobby, Guess What was on display for all the world to see, right out front of the main entrance doors. :hihi:

Darth Vader GTO!

 

Re: Pontiac? pffffftttttt

Darth Vader GTO!

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! hiha hiha hiha . Maybe I've been locked inside for too long today, but **** that was such a funny come back.

But still, I dunno. Granted the new vette is going to be insane, but... it's still a vette. :confused2. Dunno about you guys, but if I bought one I'd have to start wearing polo shirts and bad baseball caps made to promote golfing products. And it's still a vette. Now was'nt there a V10 M5 somewhere around here? :wroom:

 

What forum was this? If it was an American Car or Pontiac/GM forum, then I wouldnt expect anything less from the other users.

As stated before, Chevy makes a great car. I have one sitting in my driveway, a GMC Yukon XL, with a 8.1L that can pull a 12,000lb boat very quickly over the Rockies and to Lake Powell. In any area of cars, whether it be motorsport or luxury, GM has the resources and ability to destroy any competition (the same goes for Ford, but on a smaller level...GT40 vs Ferrari). If Chevy wanted to win an F1 championship next year, they could do it. If they wanted to build a better luxury car than a Maybach or a Rolls, they could do it in a few months. But as the worlds largest company, they have taken a middle of the road approach. This is how they make money. Im a die-hard Bimmerhead, but I make a yearly trip to Detroit to the Woodward cruise where you see Detroit iron from the beginning of cars to the latest cars; some cars have a good 1500hp and a sound that will make you go nuts. With BMW in a dilemma with the HP wars (this is obvious with the new M5 going V10 and the M3GTR going V8), you might see bigger displacement from BMW, similar to the American "no replacement for displacement." If the M5 can make a stellar 550hp out of 6 litres, and from a $20,000 engine, but I can go to my local Chevy dealer and pick up a 572 crate engine that makes a comfy 870hp and enough torque to make you eat dirt for $8,000....guess which one wins?

Lets also not forget the GM directed Lotus/Opel Omega...a car produced in 1991 that would give an E39 M5 a good run for its money, and maybe even beat a stock E39 M5. Sure, it has turbos, but BMW would not have won the 1983 F1 championship without a turbo....

Sorry to burst any bubbles, but NO GM couldn´t start to build a F1 now and win next years championship... Just not possible.. Of course if they went and bought Ferrari; sure, but not otherwise.. Look at Toyota (No2 on the world market, Ford (jaguar) No3 etc..) Neither have won the championship, and Ford even took the easy route and bought Stewwart, and have a very long, distinguished history in F1 =still couldn´t do it by this time... Toyota started from scratch=2years been there (with a budget thats been said to be even more than those of Mc and Ferrari) and this year they might make it into the medium fast teams..

 

Re: Pontiac? pffffftttttt

Darth Vader GTO!

:7: USBx80i or something like that? The only letters I keep up with are things like GTO and C4s :flag:

 

Sorry to burst any bubbles, but NO GM couldn´t start to build a F1 now and win next years championship... Just not possible.. Of course if they went and bought Ferrari; sure, but not otherwise.. Look at Toyota (No2 on the world market, Ford (jaguar) No3 etc..) Neither have won the championship, and Ford even took the easy route and bought Stewwart, and have a very long, distinguished history in F1 =still couldn´t do it by this time... Toyota started from scratch=2years been there (with a budget thats been said to be even more than those of Mc and Ferrari) and this year they might make it into the medium fast teams..

Yeah, that's what they probably thought in the 60's as well when Ford got pissed at Ferrari. While the GT-40 wasn't an instant success, within a couple of years it was dominating. GM has the resources to do it and they would have to overspend bigtime, maybe luring Schumacher away to boot. Look at Montoya leaving BMW with a whole season to go, talk about a lame duck. All cars are designed & built by people. All it would take is a company with the resources and determination to create anything they wanted if they were willing to make the commitment. Look at the Chrysler supercar in Detroit, M4-16 or whatever it is. Veyron type numbers for less than half the price. Granted, Chrysler isn't known as an exotic maker, but you can't ignore what they've done and could do if they wanted to.

 

Jim,
so true. All cars are designed & built by people.

this is what I think most people are missing when they dont understand how BMW could do what its doing. its being run by a bunch of consultants! I think Dr. Panke and friends will be sent packing in short order- at least I hope.