[Wolverine]

Well, I thought we could not compare the M5-Porsche!

Porsche is rumored to be working on a M5 fighter sedan- with- ahem- a stick shift! . But it is likely to also feature: forced induction + AWD. Dare I say it, but I think if they do this the M5 will feel sharper.

Im with you on the CSL. Not worth it, IMHO. But the lightweight roof probably pays dividends with lowering the CG.

I don't quite understand the 'lightweight CSL' concept. To paraphrase one automotive journalist - "why would I want to pay $20,000 more for a car that eliminates my radio and air conditioning to get the performance I could have by just driving around with a 1/4 tank of gas?". IMO the M5 is such a great car because they have packed so much performance into a car that doesn't force you to make compromises. That's the real engineering trick - anyone can make a car go faster by eliminating or replacing heavy parts.

 

[vndkshn]

Well, I thought we could not compare the M5-Porsche!

If you notice, I didn't compare the M5 and the Porche, I compared the M6 and the Porche, which is a much more realistic comparison.

 

[António Duarte]

I don't quite understand the 'lightweight CSL' concept. To paraphrase one automotive journalist - "why would I want to pay $20,000 more for a car that eliminates my radio and air conditioning to get the performance I could have by just driving around with a 1/4 tank of gas?". IMO the M5 is such a great car because they have packed so much performance into a car that doesn't force you to make compromises. That's the real engineering trick - anyone can make a car go faster by eliminating or replacing heavy parts.

Are you joking?! Granted, the M3 CSL might not be better, bang for buck, but performance wise it really is. If the price premium is worth it, depends on the buyer. CSL is 185Kg lighter than regular M3. I don't know what kind of petrol u use but if you can make that diference on the gas tank, congrats and please tell your secret. Tiff Needle put it this way: The CSL is 2secs/mi faster than the regular M3 and if any F1 team could buy 2secs/mi for 20k they would be thrilled". So, if you track your car and money is of little meaning for you (i know a guy who makes in excess of 250k euros/month, so a CSL for him is peanuts...) you might find it a good car...

And if your answer is that some1 with so much money can just buy a GT3 and blow everybody away, that's true... but it's for the guy with the $$ to decide and BMW had no probs selling the CSLs (except GB, importer fault...) so... they are doing something right...

 

[Wolverine]

Are you joking?! Granted, the M3 CSL might not be better, bang for buck, but performance wise it really is. If the price premium is worth it, depends on the buyer. CSL is 185Kg lighter than regular M3. I don't know what kind of petrol u use but if you can make that diference on the gas tank, congrats and please tell your secret. Tiff Needle put it this way: The CSL is 2secs/mi faster than the regular M3 and if any F1 team could buy 2secs/mi for 20k they would be thrilled". So, if you track your car and money is of little meaning for you (i know a guy who makes in excess of 250k euros/month, so a CSL for him is peanuts...) you might find it a good car...

And if your answer is that some1 with so much money can just buy a GT3 and blow everybody away, that's true... but it's for the guy with the $$ to decide and BMW had no probs selling the CSLs (except GB, importer fault...) so... they are doing something right...

My point is that it doesn't take great engineering to remove or replace parts on a car to make it lighter. If you want a race car, then maybe the CSL is for you, but I don't really see the point as a street car.

 

[António Duarte]

well, that's why it was a limited edition... and the point of the CSL is that by spending more money and time u can use more refined engineering. In this case, the engineergin refinement was the use of lighter parts... and it takes lot's of engineering to replace a material for a part. If u think not i can tell you that just changing the type of alloy for a door or hood, for example, is quite hard. It's not a simple swap due to the different carachteristics. You have to reengineer the mould because of that. It might not be any great news, but very different stuff can only be done project wise. Like the 360CS, what's so different about that?

 

[Enigma]

My point is that it doesn't take great engineering to remove or replace parts on a car to make it lighter. If you want a race car, then maybe the CSL is for you, but I don't really see the point as a street car.

If I bought a CSL it woudl replace the Lotus, not the daily driver. The nice things about those cars (and GT3, 360,cs, Z06) is they are a fully track ready cars that you can drive aroun on the street without a problem other than losing your confort items.

I still think the best thing BMW could do for itself is offets all the CSL type parts as cost add options. You want a CF roof for your m5, $5k and its yours. People that want to spend some extra $ on lightness can choose their own degree

Personally on the M6 if I could get a super lightweight roof that saved 60kg or so I would spend a few extra $. Same with some ot the other weight saving options. However my daily driver is keeping the heated seats and sound system.

BTW: if bmw were to do a "manual" they would also have the option of doing it "by wire". The clutch pedal and gearshift simply operate electronic inputs and the computer processes them much like the current throttle. They could also then prevent misshifts and still offer an auto mode. They are just diffrent inputs into the same system. Since this would just be 95% software development and keep the repair cost safeguards in place for BMW I could almost believe it. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

 

[Wolverine]

well, that's why it was a limited edition... and the point of the CSL is that by spending more money and time u can use more refined engineering. In this case, the engineergin refinement was the use of lighter parts... and it takes lot's of engineering to replace a material for a part. If u think not i can tell you that just changing the type of alloy for a door or hood, for example, is quite hard. It's not a simple swap due to the different carachteristics. You have to reengineer the mould because of that. It might not be any great news, but very different stuff can only be done project wise. Like the 360CS, what's so different about that?

I am a design engineer, and while everything that's produced for a car takes some level of engineering, it doesn't take a lot to remove a radio, or an a/c unit, or substitute a carbon fiber hood for a steel one. I'll tell you how to save 185 kg on your M3 for your next race - take out the seats. Saving 185 kg on a 1600 kg street car isn't really comparable to saving 185 kg on a 600 kg formula 1 car either. If you want to pay BMW to 'strip' your car for racing, then fine. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me for a car you'll be driving on the street.

 

[M6 Forever]

It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me for a car you'll be driving on the street.

Exactly right, which is why several of us think the M6 CSL is even more silly an idea. It's only really the M3 that the CSL makes any sense. I just find it odd to see a large luxury coupe/GT to be stripped down without all the defining features.

 

[vndkshn]

I agree Wolverine... doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that removing the super adjustable electric seats and other comfort items is going to save a boat load of weight. So, swapping a few heavy electrical comfort parts for manual uncomfortable parts and sticking on super sticky (and low mileage) tires is worth $20k? I am in the wrong business...

Personally, I would save the cash, get a regular M3, remove some luxury stuff, add the intake, and stick some sticky tires on the car for race day. Then after race day, put the seats and regular tires back on the car.

The current CSL is not enough to justify the cost difference.

 

[MEnthusiast]

I think BMW's official line is SMG= greater performance for the vast majority of drivers and I don't think they will change it for the M3. I also think youll get a similar high red line (as they like the "high revving concept"). I'm sorry to say but I would be surprised to see a stick shift on any of their cars in the near future. I hear the E90 will be the last new BMW generation to even offer a stick shift in the series model....


As to the CSL. What you pay for is speed. I just happened to see 5th Gears show where they compare the regular M3 with the CSL. I think their conclusion went something like this "if any competition team could save 3 seconds/ lap for 20k, they would do it in an instant and call it a bargain". So once again, the CSL discussion, just like SMG and many of the other things we've discussed lately, comes down to your point of view. If you wanted the ultimate factory built track E46 M3, then the CSL is your ticket to thrills. But I want more of a road car and from my viewpoint the CSL makes no sense.

 

[vndkshn]

Again I wonder... if you put the CSL's tires on the regular M3, what percentage of those 3 seconds a lap do you get? I wouldn't be suprised to see it is a pretty considerable percentage.

 

[MEnthusiast]

Neither would I. Tires are the most important component you have.

 

[JohnH]

You obviously havent driven or owned a CSL!! It is so different to the standard M3. The handling, feedback, SMG performance and engine response in fact the whole package is a huge improvement over the standard M3.

It does worry me that people put so much faith in one-off tests done on TV or in a magazine when to really get to grips with cars like the CSL does take a few weeks of ownership.

 

[MEnthusiast]

Sounds fair- but its just a subjective thing. I wouldn't find the benefits worth it since I don't track my cars. And if I did, I'm not sure Id want to do it with something as expensive- and thats just a personal call. I do think the tires on the CSL have to account for most of the advantage over the stock M3. But even in the TV review, Tiff is enjoying the extra engine noise, and precision the CSL offers. So they do discuss that.

 

[noel]

I have to weigh in on this. I've been a BMW owner for the past 27 years... most all models, mostly with stick & clutch, a few with auto including our current X5 4.6; I bought those BMWs largely because of the availability of a slick shifting manual that I could control as I saw fit... i.e. which gear do I need/want right now.

The BMW auto is a very good unit, the best I have experienced, but it is not appropriate for an M-car.

I have raced, nationally and competitively, in club and pro series in the US. And I know that the 500 HP range can get really ugly with a clutch for a street car. BMW is not selling these E60 M5s for use on a racetrack, but as daily drivers on the street, and with passengers. I think, on the one hand, I like their SMG concept as a viable approach in order to blend useable performance, longevity, and driving passion. Although the current M3 SMG leaves me short as a street appliance, I certainly enjoy it for performance street driving, or club days at the track.

If we are to believe BMW with their claims for SMG III (I think I do) then I think they will get it just about right... I will let you know after I actually get to take delivery on my new one (first position in line) next ____? And I will let you know how it compares to our 2005 911 Carrera S 6-speed, which exists in our world only because BMW would not let me buy the new M5 with a clutch! And we will see which one gets driven more often, and under what conditions.

In the meantime, I enjoy the 2000 M5 with its manual upshifts, downshifts, clutch and all.

It is what it is... Get in and drive... Or buy something else... Or both!

 

[KIP]

Clutch etc. problems are the kinds of problems I dont need in Finland, thats why I like the SMG or auto. In the USA and most places car parts are 30-50% cheaper and labor is even more expensive here. I want to use my car ruff now and then, but in the M5 a launch now and then means you usually screw the launch. New M5 with SMG (or auto)=launch mode, allways a good launch+ probably less repairs to do after the launch. Hence better performance and less worry. In Finland I can rarely drive with the dsc off sport mode on! If I would live in sunny California the situation would be different and I could drive with the sport mode on and dsc off all the time. I also refer to the following thread.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=48942

I am waiting eagarly for the new M5!

 

[António Duarte]

I am a design engineer, and while everything that's produced for a car takes some level of engineering, it doesn't take a lot to remove a radio, or an a/c unit, or substitute a carbon fiber hood for a steel one. I'll tell you how to save 185 kg on your M3 for your next race - take out the seats. Saving 185 kg on a 1600 kg street car isn't really comparable to saving 185 kg on a 600 kg formula 1 car either. If you want to pay BMW to 'strip' your car for racing, then fine. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me for a car you'll be driving on the street.

Well, if you take out the seats on CSL it also get's lighter... some stuff is easy to do to make a "regular" M3 like a CSL, like removing radio, ac, the removing bit.. yes, "anyone" can take stuff out or reprogram the engine (if they have the right hear for this reprog). But what about the CF roof? If you think that's easy or cheap, well, just do it and sell it. I bet if it's not so expensive you can sell to a lot of enthusiast owners . Maybe that's the right business to be in, or what you think? Likewise the boot and other different parts. Let alone that they are produced in much smaller numbers, the use of processes that take longer and are more complicated are the real cost increase. How much time to make a roof in stell: some minutes with steel presses. Time to make a CF roof: well, put tissue in mold, prepare it, take to autoclave, cook at high pressure for a few HOURS... i'm sure that being a design engineer you already got the picture, wolverine...
Anyway, it really depends if you want to spend the $$ or not... :byee55amg

 

[vndkshn]

then again, are all of the CF parts hand made?

I don't think that anyone is saying that CF and the like are not expensive.. but do they justify the minimal weight reduction?

I would love to see back to back comparisons between M3 CSL and M3 with Cup wheels and tires.

 

[Wolverine]

Well, if you take out the seats on CSL it also get's lighter... some stuff is easy to do to make a "regular" M3 like a CSL, like removing radio, ac, the removing bit.. yes, "anyone" can take stuff out or reprogram the engine (if they have the right hear for this reprog). But what about the CF roof? If you think that's easy or cheap, well, just do it and sell it. I bet if it's not so expensive you can sell to a lot of enthusiast owners . Maybe that's the right business to be in, or what you think? Likewise the boot and other different parts. Let alone that they are produced in much smaller numbers, the use of processes that take longer and are more complicated are the real cost increase. How much time to make a roof in stell: some minutes with steel presses. Time to make a CF roof: well, put tissue in mold, prepare it, take to autoclave, cook at high pressure for a few HOURS... i'm sure that being a design engineer you already got the picture, wolverine...
Anyway, it really depends if you want to spend the $$ or not... :byee55amg

How much do you think the roof panel in an M6 weighs compared to a carbon fiber roof? Take a guess.