geez, first it's my suspension bushings 2 months ago and now this..my ses light came on, and i've taken it in to local indep shop that did the suspension work. i need to replace my vapor ventilation valve (under intake manifold) as it's leaking. the part is $112 but they also have $700 in labor to replace it and reprogram everything...has anyone had this done and does this sound about right? i'm still not comlaining too much, these are the first repair items i've had in 55k miles, but i'm starting to get worried about having a steady stream of problems in the car's old age....thx
cohenfive
SOunds like you are getting screwed.
Call the dealership- ask what is the book time to change the Evaporative Purge Valve. Ask parts how much the valve costs.
I think it is 2-3 hours. No reprogramming. Somewhere I read $300 for labor.
If true, this should be a warning never to trust these guys again. Period
A
PS I have the same fault and the dealer ordered the part to install. Under CPO, so $50.
I have the instructions on how to do it from Ondemand.. I was gonna go to a shop to do it, but it seems so easy that you can do it yourself.
the valve is 68.60 from Pelicanparts.com
I'm doing this myself in a couple of weeks
keep in mind you may also need to get the carbon canister changed.. it's $170 from pelican
the valve is 68.60 from Pelicanparts.com
I'm doing this myself in a couple of weeks
keep in mind you may also need to get the carbon canister changed.. it's $170 from pelican
ok, updated info...got different part info from the indep shop so maybe i'm not getting hosed, just an expensive part to get to...
part to be replaced: 13 907 830 766
evidently it's an updated valve and that's why there is some reprogramming to do when the original one is replaced...and it's under the intake manifold so is a bit of a pain (ie, lots of labor) to replace....
part to be replaced: 13 907 830 766
evidently it's an updated valve and that's why there is some reprogramming to do when the original one is replaced...and it's under the intake manifold so is a bit of a pain (ie, lots of labor) to replace....
well i just got to the bottom of this and i'm getting hosed but they've already started the work. the part is $69 at pelican, $89 plus tax at my bmw dealer (who is very expensive), and $429 for labor to install the part at the dealer. the independent service shop is charging me $112 for the part, and $825 in total including $234 for the 'diagnostic' charge. that equates to 2 full hours to diagnose the problem, seems pretty high to me given that the electronics will tell you exactly where to look...
before i blast this shop here and elsewhere, am i missing something or do i have a right to be ticked off....i told them i will pick up my car and they will never see me again. i guess i'm back at concord bmw from now on...
before i blast this shop here and elsewhere, am i missing something or do i have a right to be ticked off....i told them i will pick up my car and they will never see me again. i guess i'm back at concord bmw from now on...
Did you sign an estimate that allowed them to charge $234 to diagnose it?
I am an absolute prick about that stuff up front with shops, but I will NOT get screwed like that...
Maybe someone else will chime in, but many times the "book time" or Mitchell Guide number will INCLUDE 'diagnosis and replacement'...
They are just screwing you with the diagnostic time, especially since the plenum isn't gonna take them 3 hours!
(Moral of the story? Ask here first!
)
A
I am an absolute prick about that stuff up front with shops, but I will NOT get screwed like that...
Maybe someone else will chime in, but many times the "book time" or Mitchell Guide number will INCLUDE 'diagnosis and replacement'...
They are just screwing you with the diagnostic time, especially since the plenum isn't gonna take them 3 hours!
(Moral of the story? Ask here first!
)A
Consider paying by credit card, and dispute the charge as unauthorized if they don't have a WRITTEN estimate signed off by you (most states require written estimate before mechanics can charge anything).
I am a little surprised they haven't agreed to at least match the dealer charges since they are so over the top on this.
If you have one of those action reporters on local TV, this might be a great consumer interest story. I bet they scurry away like rats if the TV cameras show up!
Good luck on dealing with these bastards.
Regards,
Jerry
I am a little surprised they haven't agreed to at least match the dealer charges since they are so over the top on this.
If you have one of those action reporters on local TV, this might be a great consumer interest story. I bet they scurry away like rats if the TV cameras show up!
Good luck on dealing with these bastards.
Regards,
Jerry
Fuddy, Ha, ha, ha.... I was wondering when you were going to post that part. That job is all in removal of the intake plenum and the 8 seperate runners. What they also neglect to mention is the fact that you have to break your hand in 5 places to get the purge lines off the valve. That valve is buried in a place that was never meant to be seen with the motor in the car. I always love how they casually say "remove hoses". LOL!!! I guarantee that picture of the valve is taken with the motor out of the car.
Anyway, I've been watching this discussion and figured I'd chime. Having had some experience with those valves in the past.
Better to be on the lookout. Watch what shops are up to and don't be afraid to ask questions. In this case I'd also be careful what you read on the internet.
Let me break this job for to you.... Car comes into shop. Service writer greets and signs in customer. Technician is assigned vehicle. Road tests and verifies customer complaint. Any proficient technician will then perform a charging system test before proceeding with any type of electrical system diagnosis (not often a problem, but it can run you in circles if the charging system is weak). If it's a dealer or a high end shop they will then hook up the BMW GT-1 diagnostic tool (A tool which happens to cost around $16,000 and is necessary for most programming procedures). Once the tech retrieves faults it is necessary to understand them. I'm guessing this purge fault was a 232 which states "purge valve malfunction", but doesn't point a finger at what is malfunctioning. It could be a vacuum supply problem, an electrical fault with the signal to the valve, a valve with a faulty electrical actuator or a valve with a faulty plunger. If it isn't diagnosed correctly it results in a second or third removal of the intake plenum (not good....). Whether that is at the shops or the customers cost depends on which shop it is and how honest they are. A tech armed with the GT-1 can activate the valve to make sure it's getting signal. A noid lamp or voltmeter can verify that signal if the valve is faulty electrically and not making a "clicking" noise when opening/closing. More often than not the valves will continue to open/close even though the plunger is faulty. This is where a lot of untrained techs will go wrong and assume it's OK. You must then check the plunger to make sure it's actually sealing it's orofice. If the valve proves faulty then you're good to go with the repair. If not, then the tech must report to the service writer advising that they will need further diagnostic time. Provided it's just the valve (as it usually is), the tech turns in a diagnosis to the service writer who provides a request for parts to the parts guy who calls the parts house (presumably the dealer for OEM parts). Once the price is obtained a repair estimate must be created, the customer called and the repair needs to be OK'd. Once the part is ordered and arrives the technician then has to install the part, clear faults, road test and report back to the service writer whether it is repaired or not. Oh, and in this case, because there is an update... The computer must be reprogrammed using said GT-1.
So that's it... Just a simple little repair that ends up being not so simple. The other issue is that diagnosis is impossible with the intake in place so frequently you have to go out on your own dime and remove the intake. If the customer doesn't approve the repair at that point then your stuck with the wasted time of removal and installation just for the sake of a diagnosis.
The added parts expense of buying through a shop is usually what's necessary to get yourself a proper warranty. I've never been to a shop that will warranty parts from an outside source. Even if you do source your own parts you are frequently close in terms of cost once you've paid shipping, plus you may be up to a week out on getting that part delivered. What's having your car worth to you while you wait to get that part delivered?
That's about it... Make sure you always look at the whole picture. If you look at what Jon posted above you see that it's pretty realistic, but he doesn't break out the diagnostic or the parts price for you. It's also goofy what he says... BMW is soo far off on their times sometimes. They quote 1.7 to replace the valve, but 1.8 to remove the intake. Now, unless you're Kasper the friendly ghost you can't remove that valve without removing the intake and yet they call for less labor to do the valve than to do the intake by itselft.
Being a tech myself I sometimes feel the need to reply to these things. There are a lot of honest techs out there looking to do right by you, just as there are a lot of sheisters out there. The most important thing you can do is build a relationship with an honest shop. They'll then value you as a customer and make sure to take great care of you. Look how busy a shop is and you can usually figure out how solid their customer following is.
Anyway guys.... Good night, take care. If you've got questions, feel free to e-mail me. Now that I've finally signed on here I'll be sure to post more frequently. I may even think of trading the M3 for it's big brother one of these days.
Anyway, I've been watching this discussion and figured I'd chime. Having had some experience with those valves in the past.
Better to be on the lookout. Watch what shops are up to and don't be afraid to ask questions. In this case I'd also be careful what you read on the internet.
Let me break this job for to you.... Car comes into shop. Service writer greets and signs in customer. Technician is assigned vehicle. Road tests and verifies customer complaint. Any proficient technician will then perform a charging system test before proceeding with any type of electrical system diagnosis (not often a problem, but it can run you in circles if the charging system is weak). If it's a dealer or a high end shop they will then hook up the BMW GT-1 diagnostic tool (A tool which happens to cost around $16,000 and is necessary for most programming procedures). Once the tech retrieves faults it is necessary to understand them. I'm guessing this purge fault was a 232 which states "purge valve malfunction", but doesn't point a finger at what is malfunctioning. It could be a vacuum supply problem, an electrical fault with the signal to the valve, a valve with a faulty electrical actuator or a valve with a faulty plunger. If it isn't diagnosed correctly it results in a second or third removal of the intake plenum (not good....). Whether that is at the shops or the customers cost depends on which shop it is and how honest they are. A tech armed with the GT-1 can activate the valve to make sure it's getting signal. A noid lamp or voltmeter can verify that signal if the valve is faulty electrically and not making a "clicking" noise when opening/closing. More often than not the valves will continue to open/close even though the plunger is faulty. This is where a lot of untrained techs will go wrong and assume it's OK. You must then check the plunger to make sure it's actually sealing it's orofice. If the valve proves faulty then you're good to go with the repair. If not, then the tech must report to the service writer advising that they will need further diagnostic time. Provided it's just the valve (as it usually is), the tech turns in a diagnosis to the service writer who provides a request for parts to the parts guy who calls the parts house (presumably the dealer for OEM parts). Once the price is obtained a repair estimate must be created, the customer called and the repair needs to be OK'd. Once the part is ordered and arrives the technician then has to install the part, clear faults, road test and report back to the service writer whether it is repaired or not. Oh, and in this case, because there is an update... The computer must be reprogrammed using said GT-1.
So that's it... Just a simple little repair that ends up being not so simple. The other issue is that diagnosis is impossible with the intake in place so frequently you have to go out on your own dime and remove the intake. If the customer doesn't approve the repair at that point then your stuck with the wasted time of removal and installation just for the sake of a diagnosis.
The added parts expense of buying through a shop is usually what's necessary to get yourself a proper warranty. I've never been to a shop that will warranty parts from an outside source. Even if you do source your own parts you are frequently close in terms of cost once you've paid shipping, plus you may be up to a week out on getting that part delivered. What's having your car worth to you while you wait to get that part delivered?
That's about it... Make sure you always look at the whole picture. If you look at what Jon posted above you see that it's pretty realistic, but he doesn't break out the diagnostic or the parts price for you. It's also goofy what he says... BMW is soo far off on their times sometimes. They quote 1.7 to replace the valve, but 1.8 to remove the intake. Now, unless you're Kasper the friendly ghost you can't remove that valve without removing the intake and yet they call for less labor to do the valve than to do the intake by itselft.
Being a tech myself I sometimes feel the need to reply to these things. There are a lot of honest techs out there looking to do right by you, just as there are a lot of sheisters out there. The most important thing you can do is build a relationship with an honest shop. They'll then value you as a customer and make sure to take great care of you. Look how busy a shop is and you can usually figure out how solid their customer following is.
Anyway guys.... Good night, take care. If you've got questions, feel free to e-mail me. Now that I've finally signed on here I'll be sure to post more frequently. I may even think of trading the M3 for it's big brother one of these days.
i think they do reasonable work so i should be thankful for that, my questions pertain solely to cost--why am i being charged 62% more for the part than if i bought it myself online, or 25% more than my local bmw dealer (which could be the most expensive dealer on the planet for service). on the labor, the dealer says 3 hours for the replacement but i'm being charged 6 in total. in this case there was no test drive and no service guy writing this up with me (i dropped it off the night before and told them i had a fault and that the car was running perfectly). i told them to figure out the fault and they did. i understand your point, and if 6 hrs labor plus what i consider to be an unfair price for the part is reasonable for this repair than i stand corrected...but it doesn't seem reasonable to me, especially when i am getting hosed on the part--that's what got me investigating in the first place.
ARD, I also appreciate your opinion on this matter. It appears as though we'll not see eye to eye on the issue. I live this everyday and am trying to explain some of the nuances of the business to those that don't. There will come a time when popping a part in isn't an option and you're local qualified tech will become invaluable. If he's been put out of business because he hasn't billed enough to keep the doors open you'll be left in the cold or with the dealer. Things are changing in the industry. Qualified techs are very hard to come by. The guys who frequently work on your cars in the dealer are "parts changers". They often have little experience and even less time to worry about your car. I've dealt with some electrical conundrums that'd have electrical wizzards scratching their heads. How about power seats that didn't work because a rear dome light was bad. How about an A/C system that was overpressurizing because the CD changer had taken a bath in rainwater from a faulty tail light gasket.
I'm a tech that was faced with some interesting experiences in the past. Having owned BMW's that are under warranty I was privy to checking in on the dealer. I marked some supposed service parts on my car when it went in last only to find that they didn't touch those items that were billed to BMW under their service program. They absolutely didn't change my brake fluid and the valve cover never came off for the required valve adjustment.
Diagnostic time is a part of life. It is often a flat rate that doesn't adjust. Sometimes you're on the good end, sometimes the bad. I've spent 12 hours on diagnostics that we've billed the flat amount for and vice versa. It doesn't make it fair, but it's how it generally works whether you accept it or not. It's the same in many other industries that people rarely question. Heck, I just paid $600 for a single x-ray of my dog when I brought her to the vet. Ther result was back in minutes. Where was the value in that. I accepted it because I had no choice and I understand that I'm paying for the vets expertise.
In terms of getting quotes over the phone... I'd take them at little value. No shop in their right mind will quote repairs over the phone. There are too many variables. That's a good way to lure a customer into the shop, then spring extra charges on you. It's also a way to get yourself hung out to dry as a shop owner. People that shop us generally get quoted a diagnostic fee, whether they tell us what another shop had found or not. If your doc said you had cancer and you didn't like his prognosis would you be willing to go somewhere else and have them give you chemo even though they've never looked at you? It's the same from the other end. There's no way he'd work on you without his own diagnosis. If he did, I'd be very concerned.
PS At my shop we aren't parts changers. We diagnose problems first. I prefer not to "pop" a part in, then when it didn't fix the problem go back and diagnose further and charge for more parts. Try explaining that to your customer. "Well sir, we popped in the new part and it didn't fix it. Looks like I'll order something else and pop it in. Maybe that'll take care of it. If that doesn't work, then we'll order something else." I bet that'll end up being more expensive than a proper diagnosis in the long run. Aside from the fact that first you have to "pop" the intake off to get to the part. It's not like the non M cars where the purge valve is located on the left fender well.
Just in case anyone is curious... We shop customers just like customers shop us. We'll only work on cars where the customer has been pre-qualified. It's a joy of being an established shop that takes great care of our friends/clients. When people give us a hard time they'll frequently get quoted a higher rate in hopes that they'll bring it somewhere else. People who cause problems up front always seem to cause problems down the road.
Anyway... Sorry. Kinda got off on a rant. Cohenfive: good luck with it. Keep us posted. Hopefully some of what I've said has made sense. Just trying to give it to you from another perspective.
I'm a tech that was faced with some interesting experiences in the past. Having owned BMW's that are under warranty I was privy to checking in on the dealer. I marked some supposed service parts on my car when it went in last only to find that they didn't touch those items that were billed to BMW under their service program. They absolutely didn't change my brake fluid and the valve cover never came off for the required valve adjustment.
Diagnostic time is a part of life. It is often a flat rate that doesn't adjust. Sometimes you're on the good end, sometimes the bad. I've spent 12 hours on diagnostics that we've billed the flat amount for and vice versa. It doesn't make it fair, but it's how it generally works whether you accept it or not. It's the same in many other industries that people rarely question. Heck, I just paid $600 for a single x-ray of my dog when I brought her to the vet. Ther result was back in minutes. Where was the value in that. I accepted it because I had no choice and I understand that I'm paying for the vets expertise.
In terms of getting quotes over the phone... I'd take them at little value. No shop in their right mind will quote repairs over the phone. There are too many variables. That's a good way to lure a customer into the shop, then spring extra charges on you. It's also a way to get yourself hung out to dry as a shop owner. People that shop us generally get quoted a diagnostic fee, whether they tell us what another shop had found or not. If your doc said you had cancer and you didn't like his prognosis would you be willing to go somewhere else and have them give you chemo even though they've never looked at you? It's the same from the other end. There's no way he'd work on you without his own diagnosis. If he did, I'd be very concerned.
PS At my shop we aren't parts changers. We diagnose problems first. I prefer not to "pop" a part in, then when it didn't fix the problem go back and diagnose further and charge for more parts. Try explaining that to your customer. "Well sir, we popped in the new part and it didn't fix it. Looks like I'll order something else and pop it in. Maybe that'll take care of it. If that doesn't work, then we'll order something else." I bet that'll end up being more expensive than a proper diagnosis in the long run. Aside from the fact that first you have to "pop" the intake off to get to the part. It's not like the non M cars where the purge valve is located on the left fender well.
Just in case anyone is curious... We shop customers just like customers shop us. We'll only work on cars where the customer has been pre-qualified. It's a joy of being an established shop that takes great care of our friends/clients. When people give us a hard time they'll frequently get quoted a higher rate in hopes that they'll bring it somewhere else. People who cause problems up front always seem to cause problems down the road.
Anyway... Sorry. Kinda got off on a rant. Cohenfive: good luck with it. Keep us posted. Hopefully some of what I've said has made sense. Just trying to give it to you from another perspective.
Oh, and incidently.... You absolutely road test a SES light. If you have a car with a faulty MAS you may get surging, stalling and various other driveability faults that customers frequently allow to go un-noticed as it's progressed slowly over time. Even just being down on power. Failing to notice these problems can lead you down the wrong path of diagnosis.
As for the charging system test... also imperative. Vehicles being scanned need a constant battery voltage. Drops or surges can cause faults during programming of control units or while retieving fault memories. There's a reason BMW makes a multi-thousand dollar charger that regulates voltage precisely for programming on the E65 and newer cars. Even the older cars are sensative. If the battery dies during programming you could end up stuck in the middle and potentially toast a control module. If you want to test that with a $2k DME, then I welcome you to open your check book. I'd prefer to warn a customer of potential problems up front.
As for the charging system test... also imperative. Vehicles being scanned need a constant battery voltage. Drops or surges can cause faults during programming of control units or while retieving fault memories. There's a reason BMW makes a multi-thousand dollar charger that regulates voltage precisely for programming on the E65 and newer cars. Even the older cars are sensative. If the battery dies during programming you could end up stuck in the middle and potentially toast a control module. If you want to test that with a $2k DME, then I welcome you to open your check book. I'd prefer to warn a customer of potential problems up front.
thanks and i hear you, just seems like a lot to me and to most others for the work that had to be done. i think i got hit by the high part price (very unfair by any standard) and the high diagnostic fee for something that took little diagnosis...another time as you say it might work differently, but this is the second time i've taken the car into that shop with specifics to be done.
emmmmm-
I can respect where you are coming from. And I agree an SES light without an underlying code needs a drive. When my light comes on I pull codes so I just assumed the code was known. In the THIS case, however, of an evap purge valve there isn't a road diagnosis component, is there?
Any how about paying two hours of 'diagnostics' which includes removing the plenum, then paying again for plenum removal to change the part?
Being on you side of the business, I can understand the issues- and the rant.
Here's a question: Do you charge based on time or based on Mitchell book time? If the latter, why can't you give a phone quote?
"How much to replace the evap purge valve on my E39M5"
"3.1 hours at $92 per hour plus $64 for the valve"
A whole DIFFERENT question than:
"How much to turn off my ses light"
or
"HOw much to fix my car the evap purge valve is throwing an SES light".
I guess we'll disagree on the necessity of doing a charging system DIAGNOSTIC with every time you read codes from the DME. Any other mechanics want to comment on this? Jon? Joe?
Good luck Cohenfive- (have I seen you over on howardforums?)
A
I can respect where you are coming from. And I agree an SES light without an underlying code needs a drive. When my light comes on I pull codes so I just assumed the code was known. In the THIS case, however, of an evap purge valve there isn't a road diagnosis component, is there?
Any how about paying two hours of 'diagnostics' which includes removing the plenum, then paying again for plenum removal to change the part?
Being on you side of the business, I can understand the issues- and the rant.
Here's a question: Do you charge based on time or based on Mitchell book time? If the latter, why can't you give a phone quote?
"How much to replace the evap purge valve on my E39M5"
"3.1 hours at $92 per hour plus $64 for the valve"
A whole DIFFERENT question than:
"How much to turn off my ses light"
or
"HOw much to fix my car the evap purge valve is throwing an SES light".
I guess we'll disagree on the necessity of doing a charging system DIAGNOSTIC with every time you read codes from the DME. Any other mechanics want to comment on this? Jon? Joe?
Good luck Cohenfive- (have I seen you over on howardforums?)
A
A SES light will always have an underlying code. The light is never triggered without a fault. Sometimes faults aren't current, but there will always be a fault stored.
If my understanding of the situation is correct, then he brought the car in with a light on asking for diagnosis (hence the diagnostic fee). He didn't diagnose it himself first, then ask to have the situation remedied. He is also comparing apples to oranges by calling the dealer with the fault already diagnosed and asking for an estimate. Call the dealer for a SES diagnosis and see what quote they give you. That's a much more true comparison.
Just so I'm clear... What is the part number they are quoting and the price being asked. I'm curious to see how big of a price difference there is. Also, are you making an equal comparison by getting a parts price from the dealer, or is it from an online parts house. If it's significantly higher than the dealer price I would question it. An online parts house is a different story. You are paying for convenience and OEM parts from the dealer. Ordering a part and waiting a week isn't the same deal.
Anyway.... ARD if you own your car long enough you'll have your chance to deal with this purge valve for yourself. Every customer we've had with a E-39 M5 has had it replaced at one point. Some at 50k, some at 100.... The earlier the better, that way you can avoid replacing the rubber intake blocks and plenum seals that add another couple hundred $ to the estimate.
If my understanding of the situation is correct, then he brought the car in with a light on asking for diagnosis (hence the diagnostic fee). He didn't diagnose it himself first, then ask to have the situation remedied. He is also comparing apples to oranges by calling the dealer with the fault already diagnosed and asking for an estimate. Call the dealer for a SES diagnosis and see what quote they give you. That's a much more true comparison.
Just so I'm clear... What is the part number they are quoting and the price being asked. I'm curious to see how big of a price difference there is. Also, are you making an equal comparison by getting a parts price from the dealer, or is it from an online parts house. If it's significantly higher than the dealer price I would question it. An online parts house is a different story. You are paying for convenience and OEM parts from the dealer. Ordering a part and waiting a week isn't the same deal.
Anyway.... ARD if you own your car long enough you'll have your chance to deal with this purge valve for yourself. Every customer we've had with a E-39 M5 has had it replaced at one point. Some at 50k, some at 100.... The earlier the better, that way you can avoid replacing the rubber intake blocks and plenum seals that add another couple hundred $ to the estimate.
part number: 13907830766
cost online: $68.60, cost at concord bmw (as i said while good, possibly the highest priced dealer on the planet) $89, my cost $112. now i know that in this case the part price is only a small piece of the puzzle, but there is no doubt i'm getting hosed on the part price at 63% above the online price (which is already marked up!) and 26% above the dealer. if the part price wasn't ridiculous i probably wouldn't have questioned the labor, but once i saw that i had to inquire.
i understand the diagnostic arguement, i am only pointing out that effectively i'm paying for 3 hours of diagnostics for this (3 hour bmw book labor for replacement vs 6 hrs labor i'm being charged) which seems ridiculous to me (and evidently to some others here). they did not do a test drive, did nothing with electrical or other systems, just pulled the code and got into the engine to test the part, replace and then program. if that's six hours then i'm wrong..
cost online: $68.60, cost at concord bmw (as i said while good, possibly the highest priced dealer on the planet) $89, my cost $112. now i know that in this case the part price is only a small piece of the puzzle, but there is no doubt i'm getting hosed on the part price at 63% above the online price (which is already marked up!) and 26% above the dealer. if the part price wasn't ridiculous i probably wouldn't have questioned the labor, but once i saw that i had to inquire.
i understand the diagnostic arguement, i am only pointing out that effectively i'm paying for 3 hours of diagnostics for this (3 hour bmw book labor for replacement vs 6 hrs labor i'm being charged) which seems ridiculous to me (and evidently to some others here). they did not do a test drive, did nothing with electrical or other systems, just pulled the code and got into the engine to test the part, replace and then program. if that's six hours then i'm wrong..
Ha, ha... that's funny. It's definitely a pattern failure deal. Luckily your car is CPO.
I just checked... Part is dealer only. Wholesale list is $70. Same as Pelican parts, but it's special order. Even my wholesaler said it's a dealer only item. The shop probably has its hands tied and cannot get the part from any source but the dealer. If they buy it for $70, I'd expect a 40% mark-up. You gotta make something, ya know?!?
I also just looked into it.... There is definitely programming for that year/model car. Programming is then followed by EWS alignment. A car that is a year newer would already have the updated programming. If that car was in my show I'd charge additional for the programming and alignment. Either the shop is generous with their programming or neglected to remember that when quoting. Either way, feel fortunate that you're not being charged for that.
Gotta love BMW's, right? They definitely aren't honda's on the service end, but they sure are fun to drive. I guess I figure that if I can afford a car like this then I'd better be able to bite the bullet and pay for it's maintanence. Like you said Cohenfive..... This is only the second time your cars been in the shop. That's pretty good. I know there've gotta be people out there with horror stories. I could only imagine what it would've cost to get the bearings in my motor replaced three times. Luckily BMW took care of that out of their pockets when they realized their ineptitudes in design.
I just checked... Part is dealer only. Wholesale list is $70. Same as Pelican parts, but it's special order. Even my wholesaler said it's a dealer only item. The shop probably has its hands tied and cannot get the part from any source but the dealer. If they buy it for $70, I'd expect a 40% mark-up. You gotta make something, ya know?!?
I also just looked into it.... There is definitely programming for that year/model car. Programming is then followed by EWS alignment. A car that is a year newer would already have the updated programming. If that car was in my show I'd charge additional for the programming and alignment. Either the shop is generous with their programming or neglected to remember that when quoting. Either way, feel fortunate that you're not being charged for that.
Gotta love BMW's, right? They definitely aren't honda's on the service end, but they sure are fun to drive. I guess I figure that if I can afford a car like this then I'd better be able to bite the bullet and pay for it's maintanence. Like you said Cohenfive..... This is only the second time your cars been in the shop. That's pretty good. I know there've gotta be people out there with horror stories. I could only imagine what it would've cost to get the bearings in my motor replaced three times. Luckily BMW took care of that out of their pockets when they realized their ineptitudes in design.
Here is how I would feel comfortable... And generally we don't talk hours (we bill by the job), but in this case I'll try to break it down this way.....
-2 hours diagnostic. This covers the service writers talking to the customer, entering info in our system, etc. It also includes a base charging system test. Code readout and whatever other diagnostic is needed to be comfortable selling the job (we really hate comebacks and prefer to fix it right the first time). Calling the customer back, selling the work is included in this.
-3ish hours for the repair.... I say "ish" because BMW calls for 1.7 to repair. Their numbers are notoriously off because they only want to pay their flatrate technicians as little as is possible. They make up for the low hourly quotes by charging more per hour. It ends up being the same at the customer end. If they say 1.7 for a repair I always assume at least an extra hour, but this is open for a bit of debate (same with Mitchell manuals. They are for reference only. Their times aren't in any way gospel and aren't enforced by any party). Techs frequently are asked what they really need for the repair. In this case I would tell a service writer that I need 3-3.5 hours for the repair and another hour for the re-program. That would include all repair work, programming, then a final road test.
In all honesty..... I'd say 6 hours is very close. There is a lot more behind the scenes handling of your car than you could imagine. Everyone in the shop has to bill for their time. The service writer and parts guy are still liabilities for a shop. They have to be paid, too.
I would actually be very interested in seeing what ARD really thinks of this repair.... If it's so simple, then why hassle with bringing your car to the dealer, paying the $50 deductible and wait for a loaner car (probably a lowly 323i). That when (if the part is really available) the part is only $68 online. That's only a $18 savings. Why not do it yourself and have it done today? I challange that.... If he's so confident I'll bring the beer and we'll meet up at his house to watch him do the work. If he gets it done in less than 3 hours I'll buy dinner. Even then if he gets the work done that quickly he'll still need to bring it in to have the programming done if his car falls in the production date bracket.
All I'm saying here is look at the big picture. Make sure you understand what it really takes to keep your vehicle working properly. They aren't 2002's anymore. We're all enthusiats and we're all looking out for our best interests, but don't shoot the messenger. The shop is trying to do what you ask of them. I'd get all the details before biting their head off. If they don't justify the work to you, then blow them up. If they do things to your satisfaction, then recomend them to a friend.
-2 hours diagnostic. This covers the service writers talking to the customer, entering info in our system, etc. It also includes a base charging system test. Code readout and whatever other diagnostic is needed to be comfortable selling the job (we really hate comebacks and prefer to fix it right the first time). Calling the customer back, selling the work is included in this.
-3ish hours for the repair.... I say "ish" because BMW calls for 1.7 to repair. Their numbers are notoriously off because they only want to pay their flatrate technicians as little as is possible. They make up for the low hourly quotes by charging more per hour. It ends up being the same at the customer end. If they say 1.7 for a repair I always assume at least an extra hour, but this is open for a bit of debate (same with Mitchell manuals. They are for reference only. Their times aren't in any way gospel and aren't enforced by any party). Techs frequently are asked what they really need for the repair. In this case I would tell a service writer that I need 3-3.5 hours for the repair and another hour for the re-program. That would include all repair work, programming, then a final road test.
In all honesty..... I'd say 6 hours is very close. There is a lot more behind the scenes handling of your car than you could imagine. Everyone in the shop has to bill for their time. The service writer and parts guy are still liabilities for a shop. They have to be paid, too.
I would actually be very interested in seeing what ARD really thinks of this repair.... If it's so simple, then why hassle with bringing your car to the dealer, paying the $50 deductible and wait for a loaner car (probably a lowly 323i). That when (if the part is really available) the part is only $68 online. That's only a $18 savings. Why not do it yourself and have it done today? I challange that.... If he's so confident I'll bring the beer and we'll meet up at his house to watch him do the work. If he gets it done in less than 3 hours I'll buy dinner. Even then if he gets the work done that quickly he'll still need to bring it in to have the programming done if his car falls in the production date bracket.
All I'm saying here is look at the big picture. Make sure you understand what it really takes to keep your vehicle working properly. They aren't 2002's anymore. We're all enthusiats and we're all looking out for our best interests, but don't shoot the messenger. The shop is trying to do what you ask of them. I'd get all the details before biting their head off. If they don't justify the work to you, then blow them up. If they do things to your satisfaction, then recomend them to a friend.
i hear you. i may be being a bit harsh but do think they are upcharging me on labor somewhat and absolutely the part though. oh, and it's not that their labor rate of $117 is cheap by any standard (and not that much less than the dealer). i'll hopefully be able to work something out with them that we're both comfy with, otherwise i'm looking for a new shop.
I have to give some deference to eemm power as he is in the business. But I have a hard time when an indy charges substantially more than a dealer to do the same repair, especially when dealer rates are higher than indy rates.
My expereince is that most indies get 15-20% minimum off of parts and then mark them back up to somewhere around retail. It might be different on dealer only, but 40% markup has NOT been my personal experience.
If I were ard, I would have the dealer do it too for $50. Same reason I let me mech do the oil change for $10-20 even when I supply the oil and filter. I don't have to lay on the ground, fight with the drain plug and dispose of the old oil. While the tech does the oil change, I can watch and shoot the breeze with the owner. Worth $20 to me, YMMV.
I still think the OP is getting hosed by the indy based on the dealer quote. Some jobs take longer than flat rate, but few, and rare. If a mech can't regularly beat the flat rate, he probably won't last long.
Again, just my experienc over (censored!:biggrinbounce: ) years of working on my cars, and having my cars worked on by others.
Regards,
Jerry
My expereince is that most indies get 15-20% minimum off of parts and then mark them back up to somewhere around retail. It might be different on dealer only, but 40% markup has NOT been my personal experience.
If I were ard, I would have the dealer do it too for $50. Same reason I let me mech do the oil change for $10-20 even when I supply the oil and filter. I don't have to lay on the ground, fight with the drain plug and dispose of the old oil. While the tech does the oil change, I can watch and shoot the breeze with the owner. Worth $20 to me, YMMV.
I still think the OP is getting hosed by the indy based on the dealer quote. Some jobs take longer than flat rate, but few, and rare. If a mech can't regularly beat the flat rate, he probably won't last long.
Again, just my experienc over (censored!:biggrinbounce: ) years of working on my cars, and having my cars worked on by others.
Regards,
Jerry
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