New to board as I am considering buying an E60 M5 or E63 M6 if I move to Europe next month. Been doing as much research as possible and searched the M6 part of the forum as much as possible but found nothing. Wanted to see if the M6's have the same Rod Bearing issues as the M5's. I would assume so since they are the same engine, however, as mentioned could not find anything when searched. Thanks in advance for any feedback!:M5thumbs:[/quote yeah mate both are S85 motors (as you stated), i really dont think the small difference in weight would absolve it from having the same issues (if we can call it an issue)its a medium to high maintenece car. You either have to be well off or a good mech or maybe a little of both to own this car. Its not for the guy who wants to drive and not worry about anything other than the oil and filter. If you like wrenching and dont mind the occasional error popping up then i say go for it, its a great motor and the E60 E63 are just fun to drive.

 

Cheers, thanks for the reply. Changing out the rod bearings, or any other preventative maintenance isn't a big fear of mine. What scares me is the motor blowing (which seems frighteningly common on these motors, so much so in fact that I'm shocked their isn't a class action lawsuit yet). Was also looking at used S5's and used RS4's, but they too have some pretty big motor problems, apparently those FSI motors can get seriously gunked up with sludge and carbon buildup after as little as 40k miles. Some nice photos and youtube vids out there of people chiseling carbon off their valves. Would rather spend the time replacing rod bearings!

This motor for being over 500hp at the crank, is pretty solid, you really dont have to worry too much about it blowing on you. If you factor in how may people own s85's i would estimate maybe 2% have had engine failures and those failures MAY have been avoided with proper care and maintanence. The M5/M6 are great cars and a true joy to own. Just look at the few people who have had failures, they chose to keep the car and fix it and are over joyed when they finally get them back. If you really like a raw n/a performance car look no futher than an M5 or M6 it really is great.:M5thumbs:

 

New to board as I am considering buying an E60 M5 or E63 M6 if I move to Europe next month. Been doing as much research as possible and searched the M6 part of the forum as much as possible but found nothing. Wanted to see if the M6's have the same Rod Bearing issues as the M5's. I would assume so since they are the same engine, however, as mentioned could not find anything when searched. Thanks in advance for any feedback!:M5thumbs:[/quote yeah mate both are S85 motors (as you stated), i really dont think the small difference in weight would absolve it from having the same issues (if we can call it an issue)its a medium to high maintenece car. You either have to be well off or a good mech or maybe a little of both to own this car. Its not for the guy who wants to drive and not worry about anything other than the oil and filter. If you like wrenching and dont mind the occasional error popping up then i say go for it, its a great motor and the E60 E63 are just fun to drive.

Cheers, thanks for the reply. Changing out the rod bearings, or any other preventative maintenance isn't a big fear of mine. What scares me is the motor blowing (which seems frighteningly common on these motors, so much so in fact that I'm shocked their isn't a class action lawsuit yet). Was also looking at used S5's and used RS4's, but they too have some pretty big motor problems, apparently those FSI motors can get seriously gunked up with sludge and carbon buildup after as little as 40k miles. Some nice photos and youtube vids out there of people chiseling carbon off their valves. Would rather spend the time replacing rod bearings!

 

OP...My thoughts...I think the failures of the motors might start from rod bearing failure, releasing metal into the VANOS pump and causing a catastrophic failure. Once the motor has blown, there is so much metal in the system. We know the VANOS has failed, but was caused the VANOS failure? I don't know the answer.

A few of us have replaced the rod bearings ahead of any catastrophic failure. I suppose I was lucky when I caught my worn out rod bearings. Mine was an easy decision; my lead numbers came in very high at 65ppm. Others, like WallyM5's numbers came in at 13ppm -- well within the tolerances considered "safe". When he pulled his bearings at 94,000 miles, the showed signs of wear.

The problems with these cars (s85s and her s65s cousin in the m3), Motorsport gave us detuned F1 race engines that can require F1 type budgets to maintain them in top form. It really is no different than owning an exotic Ferarri or Porsche facing a rebuild, valve job, or valve guides.

I have the second engine creation from Motorsport: s38b35 motor in my e28 m5. Dual chains guards and chain tensioners are the "rod bearings" of that motor. The plastic chain guides wear out; it's a fact. The s38 was a detuned desendant of the m88 which was raced in the M1. Three years ago, I started the process of replacing my chain guides...a simple procedure, but not cheap either. Unfortunately, I fell down the slippery slope of upgrading everything "while you're in there". Now, my euro restoration (still incomplete) is a bored and stroked s38b38 modern Beast from the premier s38 Yoda Master Paul Burke. Hopefully, when we're done, my s38 will be 400+ to the wheels from 3.8 liters on a sub 3000 lb chassis.

For the s85, I looked at my rod bearing replacement in the same light of my s38 project. It's a simple fact of ///M ownership.

 

MIGHTY5 Great post, this made me feel much better!

 

Replace it and you will drive relaxed

i did many S85 S65 and S54 engines all got the same problem in there rod bearings !

One of problem is the high rpm ... higher than 8000 and the small size of the Bearings !

When you buy and used M Car with around 80000- 100.000 KM change it ! Rod Bearings are a Problem on all M Engines. I changed it at so many engines (20-30 at the moment) , and had 3 Engines who failed and was rebuild by myself.
A good friend of me is working in BMW AG in Munich , he only repairs M Engines . All Engines around the World who are destroyed comes to him.. every week over 10 engines...

And when some people says these engines got no problem with the bearings , sorry but they dont know much about these engines. How many engines did you ?? Sorry but this makes me angry ..

Important :

1. Its depend on you the car was driven . When you drive a lot around a Track we got S65 Engines who got rod bearing failure at 56.000 KM .. !!!!
So 80.000 to 100.000 is a good time to Change it when the car was normally driven like an M CAR !
2. How often do you change your oil ... 25000 KM it a too long interval for 10w60 ! Change it EVERY 10.000 KM !!!


Here are some pictures from the engine i build up new a few weeks ago ! 89.000 KM Rod Bearing FAIL !!

and some pictures from other i did !














80000 KM with Race Trac !



113.000 KM (My Old M5 )




S65 M3 Engine nearly Engine DAMAGE , 98,000KM THIS GUY GOT LUCK CRANK WAS OK !









SO I can go on with pictures for 10 Sites when you want ... !
Believe the right guys and not those who only write ..


And the VANOS FAILURE IS A DIFFERENT THING ! When i got time i can explain it to you ...

And if you change it or not its your thing

 

AMAZING response from someone who truly knows, thank you very much for this info! Do you do rebuilds as well or just your friend? I'm considering a move to Luxembourg and would be willing to take my care to someone that is an EXPERT in M Cars and M Engines to have the Rod Bearings replaced. I can't send Direct Messages yet as I am a new member, so just have to post this here. Also, do you have to replace rod bearings with the stock ones or are their any good aftermarket ones which are better and more reliable?

 

Duschanio what country are you based in?

 

I do the job myself with my friend.
I live near Munich.
I use only Rod Bearings from BMW ! They changed the Rod Bearings in 2010 Model Year, becouse the old Bearings got lead in it. After 2010 Bearing Rods should not contain lead ! So BMW had to change the bearings into unleaded.
Result is the new bearings are harder than the old one, BUT when you got a little metal in it you immeadetly have an Bearing Rod issue. With the old, it has incorporated a little becouse the Surface was softer.
I say that the new bearings are better but i only changed mine with 30.000 KM becouse my oil pan was set off and they looked very good !
I want to say that i dont want to scare all members in this board but when some people write these engines got no problems with bearings I MUST WRITE !
Becouse for everybody who got an engine fail its very expenisve !

 

I do the job myself with my friend.
I live near Munich.
I use only Rod Bearings from BMW ! They changed the Rod Bearings in 2010 Model Year, becouse the old Bearings got lead in it. After 2010 Bearing Rods should not contain lead ! So BMW had to change the bearings into unleaded.
Result is the new bearings are harder than the old one, BUT when you got a little metal in it you immeadetly have an Bearing Rod issue. With the old, it has incorporated a little becouse the Surface was softer.

I want to say that i dont want to scare all members in this board but when some people write these engines got no problems with bearings I MUST WRITE !
Becouse for everybody who got an engine fail its very expenisve !

Duschanio, do you still do the replacements? If so, can you message me a price? Many Thanks!

 

yes i do at the moment 1-2 cars at the weekend (Saturday, Sunday )

 

Excellent! I cannot reply to your PM yet (new user...) but if I buy the car I will definitely contact you! Thanks again for your help.

 

I'd like a price please

Would I need to run the car in or could I drop past nurburgring after you have swapped them out?

 

the first 400 miles not fast only 3-5000 RPM and after that you can go up shortly with the RPM and drive normally.

Oil Filter Change after 1000 miles and all is fine (when you want you can change the oil with filter but you dont must)

Price is around 1300 € .. with material

 

and here i post more pics... after this im out of this thread becouse i know all the problems who does these engine have and i dont want to discuss the whole day ...
Its right that we got Members with 200.000 and higher BUT its depend on how do you drove the car ! When you travel around with 5000 or 3500 rpm the whole day you can drive 300.000 this is for sure ... but then you can buy a 520 i .. !

http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/20130531215455aeiqs4xpfz.jpg

128.000 KM

https://imageshack.us/scaled/large/812/dsci0019d.jpg

143.000 km

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4917/imageelsa.jpg

71900 km

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/7023/foto1ym.jpg

and this was an 212.000 km Car normal use ! , no track

Directupload.net - 6lw8tkxg.jpg

Directupload.net - w4addjg8.jpg

Directupload.net - utcgtued.jpg


90.000 km ENGINE FAIL !!!

http://img1.bildupload.com/b6c5d5b1dc1b52daee0fd239583145dd.jpg

M6 53.000 km , sometimes TRACK use ENGINE FAILED

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

M3 S65 nearly engine Fail ! CRANK was ok lucky guy ...

Bild: img_417518kc0e.jpg - abload.de

Bild: img_416919ylew.jpg - abload.de

Bild: img_41651g9ppk.jpg - abload.de



Greez Stefan

 

Before you disappear my last question how long does it take?

 

Cant say how fast you are .

I Need 6 hours without hurry ! No hurry at this Job ...

 

6 hours with engine in car? Thats really fast! I will serious concider this for next years vacation. This year I had some other work done on the car in Frankfurt.


Sent from AutoGuide.com App

 

Excellent, I'll try and sort out dates with you in 2014 as I plan to go around nurburgring again.

I can't justify 1400 miles without some track action

 

when you do this the first time its normally that you will made it in 1-2 days.

I did the job on many many cars so i know what to do..

 

Duschanio, can you PM me contact details such as an email address?

 

Knowledge and experience friends.

Whatever you do in life, you must have knowledge and experience, like this gentleman who knows his work inside out.

Problem is, as with all TRUE experts in every business field, that there is one here and the next is 1000 miles away.

All the rest scratch their heads,

Like the three "professors" that almost killed me, saying for three days that it was not my heart in pain but my stomach.

GO FIGURE !


George

 

Are you sure it wasnt the Three Stooges? Wow George thats scarey stuff mate. Hope your doing better.

-isaac

 

haha dont worry i stay in this board

And all people will get PM from me.

But i dont want to discuss the whole day to some people here in this board who think they know better about that. ( I can promise you they never rebuild an S85 engine , they are all writers... )
People who do a lot work with this engines (s54,s65,s85) know about this and the only thing is i want to help you becouse an engine damage is an expensive thing .

All tune their cars here for many XXXX Dollars like Headers, Pulleys, Intakes ... so a bearing rod change is a cheap thing ! And dont forget all your tunes does not work without a working engine


I can write a lot more about Vanos timings and Vanos Pumps here in this board but i dont have the time , but 70 % of all from Diagnostic from Vanos Pumps etc. isn´t right.

 

Hi mate
Some of your pics show engine failure on approximately 40k miles run engine. Is that possible too? I'm worried as well as mine is approaching 40k. I only drive my car on the weekend though. Other than rod bearings what else have you changed on the engine internal?
Regards

 

40 k miles is around 75k kilometers.

Yes i had failures in this milegas but the car were used on tracks too with original service intervall changes (25k kilometers)
Please change your oil every 10.000 kilometers. Its very important for these engines. But when you are a normally driver change it at 100.000 k kilometers and all is fine and you can make another 100.000 i promise , Piston and Rings are no problem on these engines !

What else can damaged:

Vanos Pump (got no pressure) with line
Throttle Acuators
Idle Acuators
Vanos Solenoids
Vanos Gears (when they are very loud like an Diesel, you can change it if you want)

and only SOMETIMES ! we had Valve Spring Break on 2006 Cars becouse the deliver from the springs was not the best.
But this is also a problem when you took your rev limit out , you can turn over the engine.

 

Interesting Duschanio, so when you say VANOS gears, you mean on top of each head, the VANOS operating units?

Slightly off topic here, but I'm changing my VANOS pump when I change my rod bearings in a few weeks. What else needs to be changed on an 11/05 build S85 to switch to the new style VANOS pump? Just the drive gear on the crankshaft?

Don't worry, I'm keeping my fingers off the VANOS gears!

 

I mean the GEARS not the unit. You got 4 gears. 2 inlet and 2 outlet gears ! When the gears got too much axial play you hear this diesel noice.

When you want to replace your vanos Pump , you must change your drive gear on the crankshaft too pls dont put your old gears in !
The newer gears got longer teeth !
When you replace the pump you must adjust the pump . Play between crankshaft gear and pump gear is 0.06 mm - 0,08 mm. !
When you do this the first time it takes a long time , when the adjustment not fit your pump sings very loud and believe me you will turn the engine off immeadetly SO CHECK it and dont hurry !

When you replace the gear at the crank you must demontage more in front of the engine , your vibration damper and pulley etc .. the gear wheel is set to the crank with an imbus screw.
When you do this you can replace the vanos line too, then you have done the vanos system complete and will got no pressure faults .

 

Excellent info once again my friend. :thumbsup:

I would highly recommend anyone changing bearings on a MY 2006 S85 change the VANOS pump while you're in there. The new design is more reliable and the old design is responsible for many engine failures. Unfortunately there seems to be no real indicator on a lot of engines, before it goes. It's an expensive piece, for sure, but I'm holding off on doing the bearings until I have the spare funds to do the pump as well. You have to pull the pump to get to the bearings anyway, might as well do it while its off.

 

No vanos pump Must Not Been Took of while doing Rod bearings.

Your Oil pump you Must take off

 

No vanos pump Must Not Been Took of while doing Rod bearings.

Your Oil pump you Must take off

Really? We can swap the bearings without messing with the VANOS pump and backlash? That would certainly make the job easier, but I know the last few guys who have changed bearings themselves pulled the VANOS pump off.

Share the secrets!

 

no .. you dont have to put the vanos pump out !!

Oil pump you must took out and then you can do the Cylinder 1 and 5 !

Believe me

 

Well, that's very useful. Getting the backlash set correctly can be difficult as I understand it.

However, I think I really want to replace the pump while I'm in there anyway with a new one. I'm not sure I trust the old one at 70,000 miles already. I have to plan for 3 months to take this time off work to do the bearings, I don't want to go back in if it starts failing!

For everyone else, disregard my above statement. A lot of people pulled the pump, but it may not be necessary.

 

Duschanio, if we were to change the oil every 5 or 7,000 miles and send it for inspection to look for metal, would we be able to detect if the rod bearings are starting to go bad?

 

2 questions _ vanos pump - what happens when this goes? 2nd question anyone in the uk do bearing for good prices?