if you want a true 3 pedal sports sedan, nothing beats E39 M5 in terms of price/performance/quality, you'll just lose your time looking around

 

I drove a 335 auto and the gas pedal has a lag to it which was horrible, also the brakes were horrible but that could have just been that specific car.
Also drove a 335is auto, which was much better and definitely a fun ride.
And I drove an (e92) m3 manual which I didn't like because the clutch was obviously much different than I was used to and I just didn't have the confidence to push it like I do the m5 (but I guess that's pretty normal for the first time in a different car).

I've actually had thoughts about getting a 335 to replace the m5 but having an M car just feels a little more special.

 

Although there are several owners on this board you drive 15K or more in a year, if I was to drive 10K to 15K a year I wouldn't choose the E39. I myself drive 4K to 5K a year and couldnt see the E39 as a daily driver. Again, thats just me.

A newer 335i or 550i would be far more relaible, cheaper to maintain and may be even under warranty.

 

I tend to agree. If I did go with an M5 it would not be my only DD, it would be my 1/2 time DD. And the other half would either be in the 740i or in something else if I decide to sell that one too. If I get a 335i or 550i then it would be my DD.

I do like having a "special" car tho. And I agree that while the 335 and 550's are nice cars, they don't have that same specialness as an M5. So I could certainly see a scenario where I ended up with a E39 as my "special car" which would then see 10K miles or less. In fact I may just go completely old school and make the compliment a E36 M3 coupe - I've been pining for another one of those ever since I sold my sedan back in 2003 which is also when I got my first M5. I always felt those 2 cars made a nice pair!! :1:

 

But that said, the platform is showing it's age at this point and the cars can be rather expensive to maintain properly. I tend to do most of my own work on my cars, and the E39 doesn't scare me in terms of complexity - in fact, it's more suitable to DIY than the E60 in many ways which relys on tons of computer modules. But in terms of raw cost, there are items that concern me - vanos, carbon build-up, rod bearings, driveshaft issues - the rest are common BMW stuff that needs to be replaced on a schedule and same holds true for most of the newer cars too.

It's true they are expensive, but some of the "common" E39 M5 issues aren't really that common or as bad as people often make them out to be. VANOS is usually not an actual problem that affects anything other than a rattly idle (which basically all E39, and E60 for that matter, M5s have). Carbon build-up is a similar near-non-issue - if it does happen to you, a few hundred bucks for a chip (which will give you a performance boost anyway) effectively solves the symptoms. Rod bearings are kind of luck of the draw, but the general consensus has lately become that there was just a bad batch of bearings and had little to do with how the car is used. There are plenty of people who track their M5s, run them past 200k, with no rod bearing issues. It's not a ticking time bomb, but more of an unlucky few who have that issue.

Of course, all those aside, it is still pricey, but compared to all the other cars it's cheaper to purchase (even with low miles and in pristine condition) than all of them. I've driven an E60 M5 and E92 M3, and while they are great (I actually really liked the E92 M3), I can't see spending that much more for what IMO may or may not be a better experience (I certainly liked my E39 better than the E60). The S4 is cramped, hard-riding, understeery, and not as quick compared to the E39. 335i is decent but like you said, no LSD and they're simply everywhere, although the performance available for cheap is tempting. 550i would be the closest thing to the E39 M5 probably, at which point you're pretty much trading specialness for age. I don't have experience with the S6, but it'll probably cost the most (?) and I've heard mixed reviews. Also, with the E60 M5 be prepared for catastrophic gas mileage.

All of them have their merits, but in the end the E39 is going to be the cheapest to buy, one of - if not THE - most special to drive, and has the lowest depreciation. You know you like it, but it's also nothing new to you. I guess for me, knowing that I love the E39 M5 and it's just so much car for the money, I'd personally hate to spend more money on a car I know is less special like a 335i or S4 and not fall in love with it as I watch the value of it continue to fall steadily. I bought my E39 nearly 3 years ago and looking at those for sale now, it would be worth nearly the same today (certainly after I've fixed up a few things). Probably can't say the same about the other options 3 years later. Let us know what you decide. Having driven all of them, which did you simply like driving the most?

 

All of them have their merits, but in the end the E39 is going to be the cheapest to buy, one of - if not THE - most special to drive, and has the lowest depreciation. You know you like it, but it's also nothing new to you. I guess for me, knowing that I love the E39 M5 and it's just so much car for the money, I'd personally hate to spend more money on a car I know is less special like a 335i or S4 and not fall in love with it as I watch the value of it continue to fall steadily. I bought my E39 nearly 3 years ago and looking at those for sale now, it would be worth nearly the same today (certainly after I've fixed up a few things). Probably can't say the same about the other options 3 years later. Let us know what you decide. Having driven all of them, which did you simply like driving the most?

All of these cars are very enjoyable to drive actually. Not sure I have a favorite, but the E39 M5 is as good as any of them and better in most ways than a 335i / 550i - even just for the V8 soundtrack. 550i was so quiet!! I actually drove a 2006 E90 330i too and really liked that car a lot too - I could probably get one of those plus a E39 M5, which may be somewhat the best of both worlds - new and modern 3 series as the primary DD plus an M5 for special days and when I want to feel the V8 power. Although then I keep going back to the fact I could buy an E60 M5 for what those 2 would cost me. Although I like variety so 2 cars is better than 1 in many ways.

 

I am also in the Bay Area, also in outside sales and drive 20K+ a year. Bought my car last March at about 63 and just hit 80. I think it is a great daily. If you spend so many hours in your car you better like what you drive. I would hate driving all day in some generic company car.

I think in sales you also need to consider what you drive and how that appears to customers. I think the e39 M5 is an amazing car, but to some it just looks like an older BMW. To me the 550 looks 'newer' and also more expensive. Again this would be the customers perception. It is hard to find a car that plays a balance between, " I am a good salesman and make enough money to drive something nice" and not, "maybe we are paying too much for our stuff since our Sales Guy is driving a 80K car.". I think the e39 fits that bill perfectly. My last car was an Infiniti G35 and I think that fit right in between as well.

I know this is probably blasphemy on here but my plan was to buy a 50-60K milage M5, drive it, enjoy it, keep it maintained, but drive it to the ground and sell for 10K or so when I am done. I get payed milage so I pretty much will break even when all is said and done and I got to drive an amazing car everyday for work. Might even buy another when this one is done.

Good luck with your search!

 

All good points. I'm not sure what statement a Corvette makes, but interesting when I started at a new company (smaller pre-IPO) my boss, who is also the CEO was teasing me about it saying I must have made a lot of $$ at my last job. Which may or may not be true - I'm not saying :3: But in reality I paid $30K for it, which is about average what I pay for my primary DD's, which over the last ~10 years have been: Q45, E36 M3, E39 M5 (ok, paid a lot more for that one), CTSV, Evo, S4.

E39 M5 does pretty much fly under the radar at this point. It's funny, my sedan now is the E38 740i and people have the perception that it's a really expensive car. Of course it was new, but I paid $13K for mine a few years ago! But I am a bit concerned with buying a newer M5 or M3 because people know those are high-end cars in the $80K range new and even if you buy one for $40K which you could drop on new G37 sedan, the perception is very different when you roll up in a E60 M5 vs. a new G37. Speaking of G37, we had one for a year for my wife and I didn't care for it much. I really haven't found a Japanese sports sedan I have liked since that old first gen Q45.

I get mileage on this job too - used to just get a car allowance which was taxed as income so made it easier to write off the car for business. Now I will need to deduct the mileage reimbursment from my actual expenses - I typically use depretiation and actual costs, which also means that all repair expenses and consumables - tires, etc. are deductable for me. Buying $30K cars seems to work out better generally for the taxes and sometimes leasing can be advantagous too, but I don't let that color my decisions too much.

 

Well, I LOVE the E39 M5, and it's the best car I have owned. I don't believe I'll ever get rid of it. That said, with your mileage needs you really can't go wrong with a manual S4 or E92 335is (the latter if a coupe is acceptable). Both are great choices and you can buy them both new or slightly used without much of a time investment.

If I didn't own a E39 M5, I would definitely want one in my stable. My M5 is my daily driver (for over 7 years!) but if I was buying one now I'm not sure I would make it my DD as these are truly special cars. I have even toyed with buying another one in addition to mine, but after 12 years of driving the E39 platform I've decided to keep my car but will likely buy the F3X M3 when it arrives.

Have fun - you can't go wrong!

P.S. I was very disappointed with the steering feel of the F10 550...definitely test drive first!

 

The E39 M5 takes a lot to maintain, both time and dollars. I think you have to Love this car to be in it. Of course you can get away with $2k a year, keeping it in mediocre condition, but that would miss the point of getting an M. Either commit fully to it or get something else, I'd say an S6 is a nice alternative.

 

If you can afford it I would go with the B8 S4. Awesome car, much better than the B7. Performs quite well as a daily driver and is very quick, everyone I know who has one loves it. Bigger initial expenditure than an E39 but less rod bearings worries and such.

 

I could lease one, but there are almost zero manual trans cars in dealers lots. Our local Audi dealer had 15 2012 and 1 was stick, so I inquired about a price on it and was informed it had sold. Go figure. Dunno why dealers only order AT on a hard-core sports sedan. Same story with BMW - did a search at a dealer on 2011 335i sedans and out of 45 cars they had exactly one manual. I could also order a new F30 335i and lease it. I did find a nice CPO 2008 335i in a color I like with the options I want, plus manual. Price is decent - could get it for around $30K. 39K miles. I would feel better about CPO with that car - some of the turbo issues can get expensive to fix. In many ways I would be less concerned about owning an E39 M5 out of warrantee assuming proper maint and condition when I bought it.

 

I was considering some of the cars you are looking at as well, except for the 550i and S6. I eventually decided on the e39 M5, but drive a lot less miles.

If you are driving 15k miles a year for work I would recommend the e90 335i. It is compact, quick with lots of low end torque and decent mileage. Compared to the e39 M5 it is much more modern (SAT, Bluetooth, decent audio), which will make time behind the wheel more enjoyable. I would expect the 335i to be more reliable except for the possible fuel pump issue that plague the N54.

Good luck

 

from the experience of people that had both 335i/d and M5 E39 car, E39 was more reliable..BMW is simply not meant to make turbo engines, we have to live with that

 

any consideration for the CTS-V?

if you have lived with a vette this long, I think that should be on your list as well...

I have had my M5 about 5 days now, and I love the car, but I am already racking up the $$$$ doing maintenance to get it where it needs to be..

newer car would be much less of a headache..

 

nah - I left that off the list because I did own a 05 CTSV and it wasn't a very good car. Had a bunch of issues and ended up getting lemoned back to GM. Chassis brakes and engine were all good, but the trans and shifter was terrible. Fit and finish was also way off the mark of a BMW. I live with that in a vette because it's a sports car, so spartan is OK. not so in a sedan. I've owned too many germans to go back there now.

 

I know I'm going to regret saying this, but except for the thermostat, and one pot hole that took a tire and wheel out, my M5 has never let me down. I did the two day drive out here to Scottsdale for Barret Jackson and averaged 22 mpg and it was a very comfortable ride. In the bidders parking lot yesterday there were tons of Corvettes, newer 7 and 5 series BMWs, Caddies and SUVs, but I was the only M5. It's a great travel car except for the fact I have a real tire and wheel in the trunk for a spare and it takes up a lot of room. As for maintenance and upkeep, that's the price an enthusiast pays to keep his Beast running like the day it pulled out of the showroom and worth every penniy to me. I considered similar cars too and am glad I ended up with the M5. If you've never been to Barret Jacckson in person, this is one thing every car enthusiast should do at least once in their life!

 

But in terms of raw cost, there are items that concern me - vanos, carbon build-up, rod bearings, driveshaft issues - the rest are common BMW stuff that needs to be replaced on a schedule and same holds true for most of the newer cars too.

I've seen you over on Xoutpost. I have an 01 4.4 X5, and an 00 M5, and I'd say they're about equal in terms of annual cost and time to repair/maintain. I DIY 100% of the time, and I actually feel that the M5 is a little easier to work on. E53's have their own potential for high $$$$ (and PITA) repairs, like front drivetrain/trans case/auto trans, air susp, sketchy cooling system, water cooled alternator... I've had VANOS and driveshaft issues in the Beast and both were inexpensive to repair.

Basically, I'd say to double the time and money spent on your 4.6is to get a ballpark figure of what to expect when owning an e53 and a Beast.

 

And I probably wouldn't consider an E39 M5 if I still had the 4.6is, but it has gone to a new home and we picked up a Mazda CX9 SUV as our family car - duty is split between my wife and I. That was a really great SUV and the maint / repair bill wasn't bad over the 2 years I owned it which took the mileage from 95K to 125K. We drive a lot as a family. Decided a new SUV was a good way to go. Don't need all the vehicles in the stable to be new tho!!

 

Your username remind me of when I was riding in my friend's 600hp cobra racing against a huge turbo C4. We went from 60 and the C4 got sideways staying right with us until we hit about 80 or so, at which point it caught traction and just took off like we weren't even trying.

[/closed course/professional drivers]

 

I came up with this handle long time ago when I had a 1991 Corvette C4 race car, so it's a vette referrence not P-car. Eventually sold it and got into spec racing with NASA in the CMC series for awhile, then realized I didn't have the time for it and was getting hard to justify the expense too so bailed a few years back.

 

I drove about 18k miles my past (first) year of owning the beast.
Went through alot of maintenance items but once its done there is noting to worry about..
The carbon buildup isn't really an issue there are solutions that are much much cheaper than cleaning it out..
The vanos there are DIY's to show you how to fix that issue..
For the Rod bearings.. OK $2500 every 100k miles isn't that bad.. Overall the E39 M5 is great and if you're good with DIY's working on the beast is rewarding.
My verdict.. E39 M5 and an E36 M3.
The E60 has many electrical gremlins..

 

I do have the ability, time and interest to do most al DIY jobs, and the costs don't concern me so much either. I could definately see a E39 M5 + E36 M3 coupe sitting side by side in my garage. I am a bit of an old school kinda guy and don't need the latest and greatest. I've owned several classic cars over the years too. I even like the E34 M5 a lot still!! I have a buddy who DD one of those and swears by it. E39 is a new car compared to that one!

 

I was referring to a C4 vette, which had a turbo that looked like it could swallow a baby. I didn't even know there was such a thing as a C4 Porsche heh

 

I used to own a 2007 335i, currently own both a 2008 535xi wagon (with JB4 tuning) and a new-to-me 2001 M5, and my father has a 2008 550i. I'll try to keep it short.

All three cars offer very similar acceleration and performance on the street. The turbo motor has the most torque, the 550 and M5 have similar peaky NA powerbands. The 535 and 550 have better brakes and more precise steering than the M5, and if you get the comfort seat option those are also better. If you only drive at 7/10's, you could choose any of the three and be content. For strictly a daily driver, my choice would be a 535 just for the gas mileage - 23mpg versus the 17mpg of the V8's. The HPFP issue is not an issue - BMW warranty was extended to 100K on the HPFP's for all 135/335/535's so you don't have to worry about it. I bought my wagon last year with 45K miles, it currently has 73K miles (I drive a lot) and the only issue so far was the electric water pump. Otherwise it's been great.

That being said - the M5 is a driving machine. It offers greater driver feedback, better engine sound, and is an exciting car to drive. It's an enthusiasts' car that can be daily driven. I would much prefer to daily drive the M5 over my fun car (996 turbo) which is well known for also being daily drivable. I cannot comment much on maintenance as I just picked up my car, but my service advisor at Peter Pan BMW has a 02 M5 with 140K miles, and he says they are generally reliable.

If you want the technology and gadgets go with the 335 or 550, if you want the driver's car go with the M5.

 

You think the S62 is "peaky"?

 

F10 550i yes, V8 twin turbo.

AWD launch:
BMW 550i X-Drive (F10) 0-100 km/h in 4,8 s 0-200 km/h in 16,7 s verified by PerformanceBox GPS - YouTube

 

no - those new 5's are way too big for me. Same size as my E38 and I'm looking for something smaller and more nimble, not equivalent.

 

I understand your dilemma, I nearly pulled the trigger on an f10 550. Great car,but I really love my e60 m. In the short term I would do it, but I am 2.5 years left on my 08 and would like to keep it LNG term. I so, I would probably get the 750i if I stayed with BMW otherwise I would probably get a Maserati gran tourismo.


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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.457708,-117.605155

 

I have to admit that is a tough list, but I have to admit the 550i looks to be an attractive candidate as a DD in that list...with the M sport package.

 

I've never even seen one for sale with the M-sport package. I'm sure some were built, but even a sport w. manual trans is very very hard to find. Maybe 1 in 20 cars if that, and not that many 550i on the market anyway.

 

ya - that massive low end of the new bmw turbo motors is due to using 2 small turbos, so there is also very little lag. the cars don't even "feel" that fast, because the motor never has a point where it comes alive, like a S62 at ~3500rpm as it really starts to come up on the cams and sing. That high-end rush is what makes the cars fun to drive. The 335i is fast in an efficient way, if not as pleasing to the senses. Although actually the 550i motor doesn't have that high end rush like a S62 either. Feels pretty similar from idle up to ~4K, but from 4-6K it doesn't pull nearly as hard or sound nearly as good.

 

ya - that massive low end of the new bmw turbo motors is due to using 2 small turbos, so there is also very little lag. the cars don't even "feel" that fast, because the motor never has a point where it comes alive, like a S62 at ~3500rpm as it really starts to come up on the cams and sing. That high-end rush is what makes the cars fun to drive. The 335i is fast in an efficient way, if not as pleasing to the senses. Although actually the 550i motor doesn't have that high end rush like a S62 either. Feels pretty similar from idle up to ~4K, but from 4-6K it doesn't pull nearly as hard or sound nearly as good.

Your summary of these engines is very accurate - particularly how the N54's are fast but not exciting. I couldn't have said it better.

Good luck finding a 550 with M-sport and manual. I have a dealer's license, I can tell you about 3-4 good (no paintwork no accident) M-sports come up at auction every month, but M-sport and manual is a rare bird indeed.

 

I hear you, I went to IN to get my Estoril 4.6is!!

 

Nice - love the Estoril and Lemans Blue X5s.

 

Quick update - I drove a manual B8 S4 today, which I hadn't done yet. So now I've at least driven all of these cars in the exact config I would be getting. I was very impressed with it - very nice car. The interior is better than an E90 or E60 by a long shot. I simply love the Recaros wrapped in nappa leather. They fit me perfectly. The B8 has very little AWD tug in the steering, probably helped by the 40:60 center diff and this car also had the sport diff and 19" wheels w/ 255-35 summer tires. I really liked the way it drove and handled - felt rather neutral at least at the low limits I was able to get on the test drive. Also the back seat has similar leg room to a E60 - for sure more than a E90. Tho it is a narrow car, similar to E90 there. Anyway - I think it would fit my needs very well. In most ways I prefer it to the 335i. I see that the magazines are getting mid 4 sec 0-60 times, so this is actually faster than a E39. And the SC engine has very instant throttle response, no lag time for spool like a turbo motor. Has massive low end tq and then flat up above 5K rpm, so doesn't have the accelleration rush like a NA motor, but the car is doing 85 before you realize it and feels like it's only doing 60. It's built to cruise all day long at 90+. Very sweet car.

Still, being a V8 guy I'm a bit gun shy as much as I do like it... I need to check into lease rates on them and see if it looks interesting from a $ perspective.

 

Well, I would look at the S5, much better looking. Not sure why you need another 4 door sedan if you keep the 740 (which is what you said early on).
And nothing against Audi, I have owned some and enjoyed them very much.

If it were me, I would let my E39 bias through, and pick one up as my special car and occassional DD. $20k gets a nice one. Slap on a supercharger and it will be an amazing weekend toy. Sale of the Vette and 740 should cover that.

I would look at the new 328i on a lease. It has all the bells and whistles, which is not bad for a true DD. It comes with 240 hp (same as the E36 M3 in the U.S) in a very fuel efficient turbo 4. You can get a true 6 speed manual or a very good 8 speed auto. You will see mid 30's on the highway, not too shabby for a car that is close to the size of the E39. And since you have an E39 in this scenario, you can get by with 12k miles on the lease and drive the M5 when you need to save miles on the lease car (and with a new car, no maintenance costs and no repairs). No up front cost, so it affects cash flow.

At $.55 per mile reimbursement, you could do very well. Most of the lease payment is a writeoff, and business mile reimbursement is not income. If 10k business miles out of 12k business miles, you end up with $5500. That is over $450/month. 12k miles at 30 mpg is about $1500 year in gas ($3.75/gallon), or $90/month. With the tax writeoff, it looks like you drive almost for free!!!

Have fun deciding !!!!

Regards,
Jerry

 

If I leased a S4 I would likely not keep the 740i. Would be better off doing a 15K / year lease.

But the 328i idea as a DD on a 10K or 12K lease is a certainly a thought. Originally I was looking at doing a wagon, but the E93 I think it is stays with the older model with the 230hp I6 so it's a last year model, and the wagons do cost more. The lease deals are always best for the lowest model cars like the 328i sedan. As far as the business write off, I get that no matter what car I drive. And taking actual expenses including depreciation on an E39 M5 may be better than the 328i as my business car. Either way it's probably close to the same so that's a wash, and I'm taking that now against my C6, although I may be upside down on depreciation so that could get interesting come tax time next year...