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Brake disc runout

22K views 27 replies 8 participants last post by  Clayton Usher  
#1 ·
Gents,
What is the maximum permissible runout allowed,at present I am having heavy vibration during braking,

Drivers side runout 0.28mm, disc thickness 30.8mm

Passenger side runout 0.18mm, disc thickness 31.4mm

Thanks
 
#2 ·
I hope that is not being a dick or a douche bag or spreading any "poo" around.

Here are the specs:

Image
 
#4 · (Edited)
Hello Clayton,

I'd like to share some little known facts about the condition usually referred to as "warped rotors". If I say these things myself, a whole bunch of people will turn red in the face, and call me ugly names -- so I'll post a link below, to StopTech's technical White Papers.

Meanwhile, I'd suggest that you try buying some 120 grit Garnet paper, and thoroughly scuffing your rotors and pads., then go out and rebed the brakes. IF you've caught this early enough, you'll remove the pad deposits which initiate the transformation of your iron rotors into Cementite, in certain spots. More likely, it's way too late for this, if this vibration has been occurring for more than a couple of days.

I caution you very strongly not to have the rotors machined, but instead, if scuffing them does not work, buy new quality rotors, because the metallurgy of certain spots on the rotors will have changed, and the vibrations will happen again, after you get the brakes hot. Machining also reduces the available heat sink, which just compounds the problem.

Here's the link :
-Warped- Brake Disc and Other Myths
 
#5 ·
Aw hell, since I just wrote an article on the subject for a mechanical forum, I'll go ahead and risk the controversy, and post it here:


Installation and Care of Brakes


There are very many DIYs and videos on installing new brake rotors and pads on a BMW. Some are good, some are terrible. They all seem to miss some really crucial points.


Firstly, you’ve GOT to buy good parts. Brakes are life or death. If you drive your car only on the street, however fast you drive, then OEM pads and rotors are truly excellent. I’ve never been able to fade BMW OEM pads on the street, once they were properly bedded, and you’ll be hard pressed to exceed the abuse I’ve given them…..


By the way, “DUST” is a byproduct of braking – SOMETHING has to wear, and this will create dust. If you don’t like dark front wheels, WASH THEM! Buying brake pads because they dust or don’t is like buying steak because it doesn’t get your grille messy.


Excellent rotors: BMW, Brembo, Balo, Zimmerman, Meyle, Textar, DBA.


Excellent pads: BMW, Jurid, Pagid, Textar, Akebono, Performance Friction, Hawk.


Avoid drilled rotors, especially if you intend to use the brakes hard. Drilled rotors crack much more easily, and are of no real advantage. Slotted rotors provide a very small advantage, in track or extreme autobahn use, without the drawbacks of drilled rotors.


Secondly, you must install the brakes correctly. Start by cleaning all “contact points”, after you’ve removed the old pads and rotors. Use a stiff wire brush, to clean rust off the wheel hubs (and the inside of the wheel, where it contacts the hub). Proceed to the caliper brackets, where the ears of the pads ride. Clean all the black deposits off of the caliper slide pins, too – brake cleaner works well here.


Throw away any orange gluey “anti-squeak” crap you bought. Metal-to-metal contact points need to be lubricated, NOT glued. These points will include where the brake piston(s) and caliper touch the backs of the pads, as well as the ears of the pads, and the caliper slide pins. Just before you install the new rotor, lubricate the hub, where the center of the rotor contacts it. Put on the rotor, and lubricate the rotor retaining bolt before installing it. Do not overtighten this bolt – just barely snug is plenty! Its only use is to hold the rotor while you assemble things, it is NOT structural!


Anti seize, (copper or aluminum) or a high-temperature synthetic grease, made for brakes and usually coming in a small black tube are fine lubricants for all of the above spots.


If you buy coated rotors, as signified by silver anti-corrosion paint, do NOT clean those rotors! If you buy rotors which are bare metal, you need to clean the faces with brake cleaner, because there’s grease on them.


The sensor should be replaced. The little spring clip usually loses tension, and the plastic sensor chips easily, when you try to reuse it.


If you use your car on the racetrack, I highly recommend that you have two sets of rotors, and two sets of pads. Mark them when you remove them…. Tape each corner’s pads together, and mark where they came from, mark each rotor….LF, RF, LR, RR. There is really no such thing as a dual-purpose pad, beyond your first few HPDEs.


Make absolutely sure that you bed your pads and rotors correctly! This process is to progressively cook the volatile resins out of the pads, and deposit a smooth layer of the pad compounds onto the brake rotors, to promote adhesive friction between rotor and pads.




Brake Bedding



For street pads, you’ll want to find a traffic-free area; bedding brakes will appear to be erratic driving to uneducated drivers, and police officers.


You’ll accelerate to ~50 mph, and brake extremely hard, just short of ABS activation, down to 5-10 mph. Then you’ll accelerate up to ~50 again, and repeat. And again. After 4 applications, give the brakes a half-mile or a mile to cool, without using them. Then repeat this process, preferably from ~65+ mph, five times, and then at least a full mile, to cool. {Most race pads require additional bedding, PM bmwdirtracer or ask pad manufacturer}


You must NOT stop completely, during the bedding procedure, while the brakes are smoking hot. If you do, you will deposit a big lump of brake pad material onto the rotors, and this will likely eventually result in ruined rotors, which everyone will tell you is because they’re warped, which is not the case.


When you have really hot brakes, even when they’re not new, you should studiously avoid coming to a complete halt…and, if you DO have to come to a complete halt, keep your foot off the pedal, when you’ve stopped. Try to let the car keep moving, a couple inches at a time


If you transfer a bunch of pad material onto one spot, this spot will continue to overheat, every time you drive the car…because it’s thicker.


If you overheat the cast iron rotor in one spot, you will transform the metallurgy of that iron into something called Cementite. Cementite has little adhesive friction, and every time the pad glides over this area during heavy braking, a “pulse” will be felt. Worse than a “warped “ rotor, this cannot ever be fixed. The iron isn’t iron anymore.


Some mechanics will tell you to “machine” the rotor, because it’s warped. It’s not warped, but it is trashed.


IF you’ve been lucky enough to feel this pulsing right away, you can maybe save the rotor, by sanding off the deposits, on the rotor, and the pad faces, with 100-120 grit GARNET paper. This is sandpaper without the silica. Just trust me here. It is available at the hardware store.


If the pulsation recurs, after scuffing the pad and rotor with this, and then rebedding., the rotor is trashed. You’ll likely see a pad imprint on the rotor, recurring after the rotor gets hot.


Remember that brake pads and rotors are wear items, just like tires. When this type of item becomes worn in a bad way which you can’t address, you throw it away, and start again with a new good part.


And this is why you don’t machine BMW rotors, .….either they’re good, or they need to be replaced.
 
#21 ·


If you use your car on the racetrack, I highly recommend that you have two sets of rotors, and two sets of pads. Mark them when you remove them…. Tape each corner’s pads together, and mark where they came from, mark each rotor….LF, RF, LR, RR. There is really no such thing as a dual-purpose pad, beyond your first few HPDEs.

Do you really need two sets of ROTORs? I understand the rationale for track pads vs street pads.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Clayton, if you have "pure" runout, where the dial indicator starts at 0, goes up to 0.28 mm and comes back to zero in one revolution of the rotor (which is different from the thickness variation described in the link above), it is worthwhile removing the rotor and carefully cleaning the mounting faces on the rotor and on the hub, looking out for dings and high spots. In other words, anything that would cause the rotor to sit cocked on the hub.

Also, check the runout on the hub face to confirm it's running true.

Malcolm
 
#9 · (Edited)
GM's typical limit on disk runout is 0.005"which is measured at the largest diameter, so 0.1 mm (0.004" in real numbers) seems high for the much smaller diameter hub. But it is what is is. A new, properly machined rotor should get the runout down below the limit of 0.2 mm (0.008").

But, like bmwdirtracer is saying, the runout you have is not that much over the allowable and doesn't seem likely to me to be the cause of heavy vibration.

Malcolm
 
#10 ·
Also note carefully whether the vibration is felt through the brake pedal, or just in the steering. If you can't feel the pulsing in the pedal, it's likely your vibration may be coming from worn or broken upper control arm (thrust arm) bushings. Do you feel a single "thump" when you hit the brake pedal? Or a thump immediately upon hitting a bump?
 
#11 ·
Not noticed any pedal pulsation at any braking speed,the whole front suspension has been renewed and has less than 1000 miles on them,

Thrust arms replaced and preloaded
Lower arms replaced and preloaded
Centre link replaced
Drop links replaced
Power flex arb bushes
BC coil overs
Square setup and 5 mm spacers all round
Alignment done, 1.5deg neg camber
New pads all round
Refurbished calipers all round & slider pins

Tie rods not replaced as there is no play in them based on vibration/rattle test for the UK MOT,so a comprehensive list of new parts fitted,all I can do now is remove the calipers and check the hanger slides for the pads,if they prove to be ok, then it has to be discs,but like Malcolm said 0.28mm is frig all though
Thanks
 
#13 ·
New pads all round
How did you bed them in? You could have the problem described in the link.

(Although what I don't understand about that rather anal bedding-in procedure is millions of cars get new pads and rotors every year and you know how many of them get any bedding in! Do we have some kind of high tech pads/rotors that need this?)

Malcolm
 
#12 ·
Because it is all on rubber sometimes the vibs that are suppose to be absorbed end up just getting transferred to the play in the steering box. Are cars are old most have play in the steering box. What do you have to lose scuffing them up and re-bedding the brakes?

If you have no pulse then the rotors are fine. The math on the run-out appears to be hub or bearing. I don't know where you measured but the rotor is bigger, in my head it works but I have not measured.

You say preloaded on your arms. I get the thrust arms are suppose to be done at ride height but the last time I found my best result to remove my slight vib I had during braking was to torque at a compressed position. One equal to braking. I don't remember because it was an experiment but I think it was 1/2". It worked the first time so I never went back. I have the hoist so I am not sure how it might be done otherwise , but all I did was measure tire top to fender arch on the ground. When it was on the hoist I jacked the one wheel with a tranny jack until I reached my target measurement. If I recall it was as far as I wanted to jack a corner on the hoist, so I may never have got to my target, but close.

It might also be worth confirming your pads are not dragging. I see this frequently on Ontario cars and you guys seem to have more rust over there. Rust builds up under the seal in the caliper making one caliper pull away farther than the other due to friction. The one pad that does not retract as far will likely touch at your run out spot and leave deposits. That makes a momentary difference in the surface which could start your vib. So just spin the wheels and make sure you do not hear scuff scuff.
 
#14 ·
No we don't have super tech but we do push these harder. Our brakes are big so it is unlikely they will bed from DD. Mechanics are suppose to bed in the brakes as the last step in a brake job. They may not, since companies now have no drive policies. There are a ton of other reported ways to break in rotors and pads. One as simple as riding the brakes for 30 seconds and cooling for a minute or two and repeating.
I used to bed the brakes on our vans but none the less the drivers would always do more as the rotors were often tinted blue, ******** and fully loaded construction vans. Brake late and hard, it confirms your load is secure?
 
#16 · (Edited)
I still have some work to check out on the weekend, but for the moment here is the video of the run out

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_G36dBxHPmo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nIP83AkWmj4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Thrust arms loaded as per Sailors method,never went through a pad brake in procedure the thought never entered my head, all the tyres have a minimum 5mm of tread all over the surface,steering linkage is new and no play in the track rod ends, wheel spacers are all 5mm fronts are aluminium & rears are stainless steel, but i will swap fronts to rears to validate, may have to look at removing the powder coating on the wheel hub mounting surface, so got it planned for a strip down this weekend to double check caliper slides,etc,etc.
Will update on my findings
Thanks
 
#17 ·
How often do you drive that car? It is hard to see in the video but it looks like you have a pad mark and I see some deposits. If that mark is pad it can be made two ways, from the car sitting with the pad touching the rotor or from holding the brake on with the rotors very hot. The results of these two things is different.
In the first video it seems to be in the same place as the run-out is maxed. So I am wondering if the car sits.
In any event your rotors don't look great but might clean up even by just bedding them in.
 
#18 ·
The top video is the drivers side, this is where the vibration/judder is coming from, the car usually sits for weeks without moving,its last journey was Sunday, a 400 mile round trip of mixed driving styles, tried the heavy braking where possible, but made no difference, will update what i find over the weekend
 
#19 ·
My guess is you don't really have run out. If the caliper is not pulling away then the pad sits on the rotor. When the car sits the rotors rust slightly but one time they might rust a bit more. Where the pad sits it does not rust. If you mark that high spot then move the dial to the other side I think you might find that you have a high spot in the same place. That said some times the pad only sits against one side because the sliders are grabby in our cars.
Comparing the two sides will tell you if you have a high spot or run out. If you have a high spot you will need to turn the rotors or replace them.

I thought I had the spec for min thickness but I don't. Ultimately the caliper needs to be looked at to find why they are not pulling apart correctly.
 
#22 · (Edited)
An update from this morning,

Calipers removed inspected slider pins,piston,pads,all in great shape.

Disc runout front face 0.28m,
Run out rear face 0.25mm

Run out with caliper removed,front face 0.25mm
Run out rear face 0.25mm

Disc mounting face & hub face cleaned with a rotary wire wheel,reassembled and the run out is still the same, no improvement at all.tried sanding down the high spots with a coarse grade sand paper (that's all I had available at the time) little to no improvement on run out,what I did notice though is that the front face of the disc has far more wear than the rear face,not sure that's normal though?
The braking vibration becomes worse as the disc get hotter.

New discs ordered.
 
#25 ·
Was hard to tell really,didn't go that in depth to be honest,was hoping a strip down,inspect & clean up would yield a good result,3hrs of my life down the crapper & still have the same vibration,going to fit the new discs & put the old ones on a CMM or OPG for a more in depth measurement,
 
#27 · (Edited)
Very interesting to say the least. I have the same issue as Clayton. This is my second time I got excessive run out on my rotors for no explained reason.

I'm tempted to do the Center link / hubs / calipers, but this makes me reconsider. I had my old rotors cut (bad I know, but wanted to test my theory) and surprisingly the issue stopped. After which I put stoptechs, but now it's back. I plan to do a run out dial check eventually.

Just out of curiosity, did your old rotors have alot of pad imprints? Maybe the issue stems from low driving range.