Engine Oil FAQ

kees · Feb 9, 2006

Excellent work Adam. You've really put a lot of time into this! :thumbsup:

Beamer_usa · Feb 9, 2006

Very nice compilation of facts. Thanks!

IMHO stick with the oil recommended on the under hood decal and/or owners manual. This way there is no risk of "voiding" any warranties. Don't give $tealers a leg to stand on, as they already have the upper hand on most situations!

KevinM · Feb 10, 2006

Thanks for the big effort it must have taken to compile this information. I am sure it will be very useful, as oil threads are (as you know better than I) so common.

I confess I that I find it somewhat amusing (or irritating depending on my mood) that BMW can take something as simple as what oil to put in your car and shroud it in secrecy and mystery...

(Not that Mercedes is any better in my experience. We had to find some Mobil-1 oil to put in my wife's Merc on a trip and could not find a clear answer as to the weight recommended in the owner's manual OR after calling the Merc roadside assistance!)

Ridgeback_Pilot · Feb 10, 2006

Ard: Nice job drafting the oil FAQ. I found it well written and logical.

The only statement I'd comment on is your sentence on the last page: "At lower starting temps oil can put very high stresses on parts AND can lubricate poorly if too thick."

Actually, the problem with cold starts is lack of oil causing increased wear of engine parts. Unless I'm mistaken, the oil itself doesn't put stress on engine parts. Rather, the oil is too cold and thick to do its job, resulting in metal-to-metal contact until the oil warms up sufficiently to begin lubricating properly.

This issue is an even bigger deal in aircraft engines. The Continental TSIO-520, six-cylinder engine in my Cessna Turbo 210 is equipped with an electric engine heater that warms the oil sump and each cylinder. I use it anytime the overnight temperature falls below about 40F, especially if I'm planning an early morning flight. The heater brings the engine temperatures up to about 65F, which reduces the viscosity (thickness) of the oil and allows it to begin lubricating almost immediately.

So, you might want to revise your statement to read something like: "At lower starting temps the oil can be too thick to lubricate effectively, and engine parts can experience greater wear. For this reason, warming up a cold engine before launching in low temperatures is extremely important."

Thanks again!

Mike

ard Discussion starter · Feb 10, 2006

Thanks for the input. I think we are saying the same thing about cold oil failing to lubricate.

I'd look for comment on the stress cold, thick oil can place on the oil pump and other components.... this might not apply to the M5...

Thanks again... let's get this to the point it can be released.

General commnent: Anyone have other references for more recent BMW recommendations??? like these purported BMW TIS and UK documents?

A

M5at · Feb 12, 2006

Nice writeup. This has already been useful to me. When I took delivery of my 03, it was 1qt. low. I went to the parts counter the next week, and they sold me the expensive stuff (10/60 @ $16/qt.) "Holy smokes" I thought. Now I realize that they were confused and that BMW 5/30 which I know runs less than half that price is actually recommended.
BTW, does anyone know what the warranty implications are if you change your own oil and reset the service indicator? TIA.:cheers:

ard Discussion starter · Feb 12, 2006

M5at said:
Nice writeup. This has already been useful to me. When I took delivery of my 03, it was 1qt. low. I went to the parts counter the next week, and they sold me the expensive stuff (10/60 @ $16/qt.) "Holy smokes" I thought. Now I realize that they were confused and that BMW 5/30 which I know runs less than half that price is actually recommended.
BTW, does anyone know what the warranty implications are if you change your own oil and reset the service indicator? TIA.:cheers:

Hey Ash-

You're using the wrong counter.... my dealer gets $8.85 a qt for the 10-60, which is what I use in my 03. To be clear, there is some contention over WHY bmw recommends 5-30 for the later years in the USA... some cynics believe this coincided with their offer of free maintenancne- the 5-30LL has lower cost AND can go 2x longer on changes as compared to the 10-60.

Legally there is no implications- you may do whatever service you want. You must be able to prove it. I've never had an issue. I save receipts and keep contempraneous records of my service (all vehicles). I figure a folder with UOA reports dated ever time I change oil as well as receipts for oil & BMW filters should be pretty adequate to defend any claim that "you didn't serivce the oil correctly".

Actually, adding the issue of DIY and Warranty to the faq (as it pertains oil service) is a good idea.

Adam

Tenzin · May 17, 2007

ard said:
my dealer gets $8.85 a qt for the 10-60

My dealer (Peter Pan of San Mateo) quoted me $8.95 a qt for the 10-60 this morning. I know it's a bit off topic by now, but I thought I'd throw it in for reference.:belgium:

mancm5 · Feb 12, 2006

what about mobil one o/40 for a 3/2000 m5 e39 would this oil be ok

E55AMG2 · Feb 12, 2006

The BMW High Performance Synth Oil that my dealer (as well as all the other dealers) carries is made by Coastal (not Castrol). It says so on the back of the bottle, as well as the carton for the case. Might wanna include that

ard Discussion starter · Feb 14, 2006

E55AMG2 said:
The BMW High Performance Synth Oil that my dealer (as well as all the other dealers) carries is made by Coastal (not Castrol). It says so on the back of the bottle, as well as the carton for the case. Might wanna include that

Funny, not on the bottles I have.

How about posting up a digital picture? We can lay this rumor to rest right here in the FAQ?

In hundreds of posts discussing the lineage of the BMW 5W30 High Perf Syn oil, I have never seen a reference to Coastal...

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003103

So, how about some data?

I note you've posted this assertion before and it has been ignored, but this time we need some proof... after all what good is a FAQ without facts?

A

16251 · Feb 14, 2006

Ard-

Very good collection of facts. An interesting and informative read- thank you for the effort!

My questions: why would people want to change the oil type from BMW supplied/recommended brand/weight etc? I'm not debating frequency- just questing type. And, what are the issues surrounding voiding warranties, engine damage etc? I don't get it. Are these things happening? Or is it just prudent caution that we are talking about it?

Thanks again- good work. :cheers:

ard Discussion starter · Feb 15, 2006

VancouverM said:
Ard-

Very good collection of facts. An interesting and informative read- thank you for the effort!

My questions: why would people want to change the oil type from BMW supplied/recommended brand/weight etc? I'm not debating frequency- just questing type. And, what are the issues surrounding voiding warranties, engine damage etc? I don't get it. Are these things happening? Or is it just prudent caution that we are talking about it?

Thanks again- good work. :cheers:

Why? Why would someone want to mod? It's like asking why you breathe.

There is a whole spectrum of reasons people mod cars, or mod the oil (or brake fluid, or tranny fluid , or whatever..) In the case of oils, there appear to be legitimate concerns that BMW's recommendation is not entirely based on what is ‘best’ for an S62. Others believe that a more precise matching of their use, the environment in which it is used, and the oil specs can be achieved by a choice different from BMWs guidance. As you know, BMW make essentially one recommendation for the entire planet – they choose an oil that will offer the most users the best overall fit.

I believe the draft FAQ does touch on warranty and what is at risk- let me know if it should be changed or emphasized.

A

PS And I am still awaiting proof from E55AMG2 on the Coastal rumor…

StevenZ · Feb 15, 2006

Don't forget about cost and more emphasis on use of the car

Good response Ard. Please add cost and put more emphasis on the use of the vehicle.

BMW oil and parts can be very expensive at some dealers. Apparently dealers can charge whatever they want for parts which causes many of us to order online when our local dealer is way expensive (almost always for me). That makes Mobil1 from Wal-Mart a whole lot cheaper. Of course I don't want to trash my engine either which is a main motivation for our constant interest in this topic.

The recommended 10W60 oil is probably a must for tracking the car. I would use this oil for tracking any year E39 M5. That use is a world of difference from starting the car on a cold morning. I believe 10W60 is way too thick to adequately protect the engine on cold morning starts. If you were to choose one oil to use under all conditions including extreme tracking then yes - 10W60 without regard to cost. For more regular driving including winter driving, well, I don't think so. Just my opinion, but I'm always looking for facts on the M5board. I love this place second only to driving my M5!

Beamer_usa · Feb 15, 2006

StevenZ said:
Good response Ard. Please add cost and put more emphasis on the use of the vehicle.

BMW oil and parts can be very expensive at some dealers. Apparently dealers can charge whatever they want for parts which causes many of us to order online when our local dealer is way expensive (almost always for me). That makes Mobil1 from Wal-Mart a whole lot cheaper. Of course I don't want to trash my engine either which is a main motivation for our constant interest in this topic.

The recommended 10W60 oil is probably a must for tracking the car. I would use this oil for tracking any year E39 M5. That use is a world of difference from starting the car on a cold morning. I believe 10W60 is way too thick to adequately protect the engine on cold morning starts. If you were to choose one oil to use under all conditions including extreme tracking then yes - 10W60 without regard to cost. For more regular driving including winter driving, well, I don't think so. Just my opinion, but I'm always looking for facts on the M5board. I love this place second only to driving my M5!

I read a few months back on a thread, somewhere on this board that the TWS 10/60 oil is rated to a temp. of 17F. I noticed your car is a 3/00 build, what type of oil do you use and how is your oil consumption. I have a 4/00 build and I use TWS 10/60 (as recommended on decal under hood) and have zero consumption between 5k change intervals.

StevenZ · Feb 15, 2006

Beamer_usa said:
I read a few months back on a thread, somewhere on this board that the TWS 10/60 oil is rated to a temp. of 17F. I noticed your car is a 3/00 build, what type of oil do you use and how is your oil consumption. I have a 4/00 build and I use TWS 10/60 (as recommended on decal under hood) and have zero consumption between 5k change intervals.

I am currently using 10W40 for the winter with no oil use. I believe I have the new piston rings and you should for sure with 4/00 build. I will try Mobil1 0W40 next winter if the oil consumption remains nil. I get on my car (of course) but I never run it long and hard like track use. I am sensitive to start-up wear so I tend to think in terms of lighter oil in the winter. Summer is a different matter and I will run the 10W60 during the core summer months even though it is substantially more expensive.

Please note that I am no expert, but I have been reading everything on this topic on the forum and several off-forum references. I expect that I am wearing my engine less in the winter not using 10W60. Remember that lighter oil is OK with BMW for engines with the new rings. So I figure lighter oil in the winter and heaver oil in the summer and always heaver oil if track-like use. If you are running the engine at high RPM under load for a time (track) you are generating a lot of heat and you need the 10W60. I think that is why BMW still recommends it - it is the best choice for hot-and-heavy use. Again this is my opinion based on what I have read.

ard Discussion starter · Feb 15, 2006

Why not run UOAs so you KNOW how your oil choice is impacting wear?

mr_bock · Feb 17, 2006

I will throw this in as this is about oil and wear... When I got my 2002 new and learned that the first scheduled oil/filter change was at 1,200 miles... I took it upon myself to change the oil at 400 and again at 800 miles. I believe in flushing out the break-in metal shavings early and frequently. Also proper break-in is the most important phase that helps insure a long trouble free engine life. I now have about 33k miles and do not use any appreciable amount of oil. At 35k I will have the oil analyised for a baseline. I intend to keep this car for a very, very long time!!!!

Thanks for your time and effort!!!!!!

mottati · Feb 17, 2006

ard said:
Funny, not on the bottles I have.

How about posting up a digital picture? We can lay this rumor to rest right here in the FAQ?

I note you've posted this assertion before and it has been ignored, but this time we need some proof... after all what good is a FAQ without facts?

A

Same here, the bmw 5w30 is a castrol product that i have in my garage.
Mike

willsyachts · Feb 17, 2006

Thank you very much. I have still not figured out why it is so difficult for bmw to get it straight!

mobidic · Feb 18, 2006

Thanks your effort...

aaronmiles · Feb 18, 2006

Nice article.

Wasn't there a pose from someone that described what went into the base product for the TWS that made it an expensive race type oil? could be worth adding?

I have a 6/99 built car and just use the TWS 10/60, cant afford to replace an engine and I'll keep doing what BMW tell me. Luckily a good friend of mine works for the local dealer, so I get TWS cheap, but at RRP, enough oil for a complete change is about AUD$160... (USD$118) so its not cheap here

.

Need4Spd · Feb 18, 2006

That use is a world of difference from starting the car on a cold morning. I believe 10W60 is way too thick to adequately protect the engine on cold morning starts.

That is an important concern but could be dependent on where you live. If my car comes out of my relatively warm garage in California, I may not have the same concern as someone living in Michigan (or Arkansas). During the summer when I drive out into the valleys where the temps can easily top 100F, I have less worries with 10w-60 because I use the same oil year around. Since I'm not as diligent about checking the oil as some people, I choose to opt for 10w-60 even though I *can* use BMW 5w-30. Using 10w-60, I hardly consume any oil between changes at 8k mile intervals (though I DO check; just not every fill-up). The cost for me is not an issue for a car that costs as much as an M5 and where I change the oil so relatively infrequently. Also, 10w-60 oil is always in stock at dealers here because there are so many M3s running around that require this oil. As a result, the (discounted) price is closer to $9/litre than $16, although the 5w-30 stuff can be had for under $4, which is less than I'd pay for Mobil 1 at WalMart. So, my choice of oil costs me maybe $70/yr. ($5 differential x 7 bottles x 2 changes.) If I lived in a climate that had more extremes in temp variation with the seasons, I might choose a different oil or change it seasonally.

Anyway, thanks to Adam for putting together the FAQ and this thread! :cheers:

StevenZ · Feb 19, 2006

Ard, thanks for a great start on an important FAQ topic. Why is this topic important? Why don't we just use the manufacturer's recommended oil and be done with it? Good question! I use the oil recommended by BMW for my 535i without all of this consternation (cool word).

My concern is that BMW is recommending 10W60 and 5W30 for the same engine without regard to climate or use. This can't be right. My limited understanding of oil viscosities tells me that 5W30 is vastly different than 10W60. At high engine temperatures (tracking or road racing for miles, especially in the summer) 5W30 is probably like water. But BMW does not tell us to use 10W60 under these conditions, so we are left to ourselves to figure this out - correctly or not. Perhaps we can punish our cars this way with 5W30 and not damage our engines, but I don't believe it. If BMW said they extensively tested our cars under these conditions using this oil without problem, I might believe that.

How about cold weather (not southern California, Hawii, Miami, etc.)? 10W60 is a thick oil. When it gets below freezing I am very uncomfortable with 10w60 in a cold engine that has not been run for a few days. Ouch! Again, if BMW did extensive testing and said it is no problem then .....

Ard, I think it is important to state WHY we are concerned, not just that we are concerned. Otherwise it would be a no-brainer ... without clear evidence to the contrary, use the oil recommended by the manufacturer. Many of us believe that BMW has not adequately addressed this issue within the context of climate or use. I change my oil seasonally in my 535i according to my BMW manual which calls for different weight oil depending on the predominant air temperature. A chart is printed right in the manual. Racing and tracking are not issues with a 535i but obviously they are potential issues for the M5. I don't understand why BMW does not issue clear guideance for such a complex engine and address climate and use. Perhaps climate and use are not issues, but I believe they are both important issues. Apparently so do many other M5 owners.

For guideance, I use 10W60 during high ambient tempuratures (maybe not Alaska but continental US during the summer) or whenever extended hard driving. For winter I use 10W40, but my car is garaged and not generally driven with ambient temperatures below freezing (its my baby!). If my car were driven in temperatures well below freezing I would use 5W30 during the winter.

ard Discussion starter · Feb 19, 2006

Thanks for the inputs guys.

I will be revising this in the next few days- seems that there isn't much contention, just some additions.

I'd not ever seen a discussion on the 'rare components' of TWS- send me a link if you find it.

Given my warm climate, I was planning in 10-60 all year round. And in fact, the 100+ temps here in the central valley made me more comfortable. However, the thermal insulation of the more viscous oil may drive the operating temps up! (Mottati brough this up). More viscous oils have higher shear profiles and hence are more 'insulative'- they do not cool as quickly as thinner oils. I may need to rething this.. perhaps going with 15- 50 weight?

In keeping with the thrust of the FAQ, these additions will be discussed as 'considerations' to differentiae them from BMW recommendations.

Thanks

Adam

Finally, I don't rev past 2k until I hit 75C... just seems prudent.

Need4Spd · Feb 19, 2006

I don't understand why BMW does not issue clear guideance for such a complex engine and address climate and use. ... I use 10W60 during high ambient tempuratures (maybe not Alaska but continental US during the summer) or whenever extended hard driving. ... If my car were driven in temperatures well below freezing I would use 5W30 during the winter.

Very sound thinking, and I agree that BMW should clear this up. But absent that, your conclusion above is what I would do if I lived somewhere where there were more seasonal extremes. I think BMW went away from 10w-60 in later engines because it was possible to do so with the better oil consumption the later cars have, and because it was less costly, but not necessarily because using 5w-30 in a southwestern state in the middle of summer was good for the car. BMW knows their cars will last well past the warranty and maintenance contract periods, so they cost cut possibly at the expense of long term longevity, shifting the cost in the form of wear to the owners (or second or third owners). If you put 10-15k miles on your MY 2001+ car annually and you live in a climate where there are more temperature extremes than where I live, it would seem an easy thing to just time your oil changes to use 0w-30 or 5w-30 in the winter and 10w-60 in the summer. :lightbulb:

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