In the market for a new car. E63 or F10 M5? - Page 5 - BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums
F10 M5 Discussion 2010- Discussion about the next upcoming generation M5 based on the next generation 5-series, the F10.

 6Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
post #41 of 59 Old 21st October 2014, 04:18 PM
Kelster
Registered User
 
Kelster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 2,022
Thanks: 989
Thanked 376 Times in 256 Posts
Kelster is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #42 of 59 Old 21st October 2014, 04:34 PM
w8pmc
m5board.comoholic (>1000 posts)
 
w8pmc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: North West England
Age: 49
Posts: 1,222
Thanks: 6
Thanked 57 Times in 51 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelster View Post
Here's the write up for DINANTRONICS Stage 2 from Dinan's website:

DINANTRONICS Performance Tuner Stage 2 for BMW F10 M5 - Dinan, Leader in BMW Performance Parts and Upgrades

--Ray
Thanks, that makes sense. Thought the numbers were a bit rich for purely a piggy back tune. Exhaust & intakes will account for most of the torque gap. Am amazed they get away with charging so much for a tuning box. I can accept they're a well known brand in the US, but i'd be wanting a Custom Tune & then some for that kind of outlay. I guess it's market forces though.

Am surprised they state an extra 15bhp from the CP post piggy back. Whilst the standard cars differ by 15bhp i'm surprised Dinan can get an extra 15bhp post tune as isn't the power difference in the stock cars purely software related? Wasn't aware of any hardware differences under the bonnet?

Paul

MY15 LCi F10 M5 (DMS Stage 2 Tuned) in Monte Carlo Blue With Extended Sakhir Orange Interior. Options: Bootlid Operation Powered, Loudspeaker System Harman Kardon, Reversing Assist Camera, Surround View, Universal Remote Control, Internet & Sun Protection Glass
w8pmc is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to w8pmc For This Useful Post:
Kelster (21st October 2014)
post #43 of 59 Old 21st October 2014, 08:17 PM
Kelster
Registered User
 
Kelster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 2,022
Thanks: 989
Thanked 376 Times in 256 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by w8pmc View Post
Thanks, that makes sense. Thought the numbers were a bit rich for purely a piggy back tune. Exhaust & intakes will account for most of the torque gap. Am amazed they get away with charging so much for a tuning box. I can accept they're a well known brand in the US, but i'd be wanting a Custom Tune & then some for that kind of outlay. I guess it's market forces though.



Am surprised they state an extra 15bhp from the CP post piggy back. Whilst the standard cars differ by 15bhp i'm surprised Dinan can get an extra 15bhp post tune as isn't the power difference in the stock cars purely software related? Wasn't aware of any hardware differences under the bonnet?

Dinan products are on sale at the moment. I guess the development costs for the added computers in Dinantronic are a factor in his pricing. I am completely satisfied with my installation.
Kelster is offline  
 
post #44 of 59 Old 22nd October 2014, 10:47 AM
w8pmc
m5board.comoholic (>1000 posts)
 
w8pmc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: North West England
Age: 49
Posts: 1,222
Thanks: 6
Thanked 57 Times in 51 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelster View Post
Dinan products are on sale at the moment. I guess the development costs for the added computers in Dinantronic are a factor in his pricing. I am completely satisfied with my installation.
Still seems awfully expensive for an off the shelf tune. I can accept being a piggy back tune they have production costs for the units but once the 1st unit is developed/produced, very little changes. How much customisation/custom tuning takes place for individual cars?

Paul

MY15 LCi F10 M5 (DMS Stage 2 Tuned) in Monte Carlo Blue With Extended Sakhir Orange Interior. Options: Bootlid Operation Powered, Loudspeaker System Harman Kardon, Reversing Assist Camera, Surround View, Universal Remote Control, Internet & Sun Protection Glass
w8pmc is offline  
post #45 of 59 Old 26th October 2014, 04:42 PM
sdg1871
Junior Member, warming up (<31 posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New York, NY
Age: 48
Posts: 25
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by w8pmc View Post
Thanks, that makes sense. Thought the numbers were a bit rich for purely a piggy back tune. Exhaust & intakes will account for most of the torque gap. Am amazed they get away with charging so much for a tuning box. I can accept they're a well known brand in the US, but i'd be wanting a Custom Tune & then some for that kind of outlay. I guess it's market forces though.



Am surprised they state an extra 15bhp from the CP post piggy back. Whilst the standard cars differ by 15bhp i'm surprised Dinan can get an extra 15bhp post tune as isn't the power difference in the stock cars purely software related? Wasn't aware of any hardware differences under the bonnet?

Dinan products are on sale at the moment. I guess the development costs for the added computers in Dinantronic are a factor in his pricing. I am completely satisfied with my installation.
The main reason why Dinan products are more expensive than the others is the warranty. Dinan matches the BMW new car warranty in length. Accordingly if BMW disclaims warranty coverage on a repair because it has concluded that a Dinan mod has caused the repair Dinan will cover it. Dinan's main competition, BMS, offers no such warranty which is why their tuning products are fraction of the cost. Personally if I'm driving $100,000 car I would want the warranty.
sdg1871 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to sdg1871 For This Useful Post:
Kelster (26th October 2014)
post #46 of 59 Old 27th October 2014, 02:52 AM
limeypride
Member, P500 Sport, DSC On (>700)
 
limeypride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: WA
Posts: 756
Thanks: 25
Thanked 47 Times in 39 Posts
Garage
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by w8pmc View Post
Mine is a physical ECU tune. Took about 8hrs to amend the relevant lines of code & still a couple of hours to fine tune the remap applied a few weeks ago. I'd not touch a tuning box or piggy back tune with a barge pole on an F10 M5. Fine for a 320d but not an £80k motor.
I don't understand your position on piggybacks--have you had a bad experience or did other evidence lead you to conclude this?

This is my second F10 M5 and my fourth F10 since their launch; the other two F10s being 550Xis. I had Dinan Stage 3 on the first of the 550s and was happy... until someone told me about the BMS JB4 piggyback. So I bought one and stacked it on top of my Dinan Stage 3 and added a little less overboost than the BMS-norm--the car felt different in a very positive way and the numbers backed that (I'm afraid I forget the specifics, it's a while back).

When I sold my first F10 550 and got another new one, I simply pulled the piggyback-box out of the first 550 and installed in the second one--job done. I cranked up the boost this time knowing that I was now running stock-boost due to the lack of Dinan and ran the car for a few days. The new car with the BMS piggyback alone was significantly quicker than the Dinan only mod and exactly the same as the stacked Dinan + reduced BMS--so what was the $5,000 for that I'd spent on a Dinan ECU tune and an exhaust (there was certainly not $1,000s worth of exhaust note in there or drivability gains--they drove the same--and as for the warranty, I can take the piggyback out in about 10mins should that ever prove necessary but my dealerships don't care, perhaps others do, though).

Finally, I decided I wanted yet more power and got an F10 M5. Again, I took the very same BMS-piggyback box out of my 2nd 550, configured its firmware via my laptop changing the setting named "Future Use D" to 1" per Terry's (the "B" in BMS) instructions and set the boost to +3.5psi. I followed folks' guidance on the forums and performed a few 40-80mph 3rd+ gear runs numerous time a day and let it adapt. Finally, I took the M5s for a few independent dyno runs and they've consistently put down 620rwhp on pump 92octane gas.

So, in short, I don't do Dinan anymore.

To date, I've bought just ONE box from BurgerTuning and it's moved from car to car to car with me performing perfectly every time in every vehicle with no additional out-of-pocket expense beyond the original box and new cabling when I moved to an M5 (total BMS cost to date across all three cars = $500).

My first-hand and 5+ years experience with Dinan, with BMS, with four F10s and well-over 200,000 miles leads me to conclude that, at least in this particular car and comparison, there's just no reason to spend the money on an ECU tune when the piggybacks yield better gains and to my first-hand experience, offer the same levels of reliability.

Last edited by limeypride; 27th October 2014 at 03:05 AM.
limeypride is offline  
post #47 of 59 Old 27th October 2014, 10:53 AM
w8pmc
m5board.comoholic (>1000 posts)
 
w8pmc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: North West England
Age: 49
Posts: 1,222
Thanks: 6
Thanked 57 Times in 51 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdg1871 View Post
The main reason why Dinan products are more expensive than the others is the warranty. Dinan matches the BMW new car warranty in length. Accordingly if BMW disclaims warranty coverage on a repair because it has concluded that a Dinan mod has caused the repair Dinan will cover it. Dinan's main competition, BMS, offers no such warranty which is why their tuning products are fraction of the cost. Personally if I'm driving $100,000 car I would want the warranty.
Totally agree & is why I'd only ever use a quality tuner who offers such a warranty. Am surprised BMS offer nothing but I guess you get what you pay for.

Just to clarify as I may have misunderstood an earlier post, the Dinan warranty is NOT a BMW warranty as someone else mentioned? It just offers coverage in the event of BMW throwing out a claim due to Dinans work? That makes more sense if correct.

Paul

MY15 LCi F10 M5 (DMS Stage 2 Tuned) in Monte Carlo Blue With Extended Sakhir Orange Interior. Options: Bootlid Operation Powered, Loudspeaker System Harman Kardon, Reversing Assist Camera, Surround View, Universal Remote Control, Internet & Sun Protection Glass
w8pmc is offline  
post #48 of 59 Old 27th October 2014, 11:06 AM
w8pmc
m5board.comoholic (>1000 posts)
 
w8pmc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: North West England
Age: 49
Posts: 1,222
Thanks: 6
Thanked 57 Times in 51 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by limeypride View Post
I don't understand your position on piggybacks--have you had a bad experience or did other evidence lead you to conclude this?

This is my second F10 M5 and my fourth F10 since their launch; the other two F10s being 550Xis. I had Dinan Stage 3 on the first of the 550s and was happy... until someone told me about the BMS JB4 piggyback. So I bought one and stacked it on top of my Dinan Stage 3 and added a little less overboost than the BMS-norm--the car felt different in a very positive way and the numbers backed that (I'm afraid I forget the specifics, it's a while back).

When I sold my first F10 550 and got another new one, I simply pulled the piggyback-box out of the first 550 and installed in the second one--job done. I cranked up the boost this time knowing that I was now running stock-boost due to the lack of Dinan and ran the car for a few days. The new car with the BMS piggyback alone was significantly quicker than the Dinan only mod and exactly the same as the stacked Dinan + reduced BMS--so what was the $5,000 for that I'd spent on a Dinan ECU tune and an exhaust (there was certainly not $1,000s worth of exhaust note in there or drivability gains--they drove the same--and as for the warranty, I can take the piggyback out in about 10mins should that ever prove necessary but my dealerships don't care, perhaps others do, though).

Finally, I decided I wanted yet more power and got an F10 M5. Again, I took the very same BMS-piggyback box out of my 2nd 550, configured its firmware via my laptop changing the setting named "Future Use D" to 1" per Terry's (the "B" in BMS) instructions and set the boost to +3.5psi. I followed folks' guidance on the forums and performed a few 40-80mph 3rd+ gear runs numerous time a day and let it adapt. Finally, I took the M5s for a few independent dyno runs and they've consistently put down 620rwhp on pump 92octane gas.

So, in short, I don't do Dinan anymore.

To date, I've bought just ONE box from BurgerTuning and it's moved from car to car to car with me performing perfectly every time in every vehicle with no additional out-of-pocket expense beyond the original box and new cabling when I moved to an M5 (total BMS cost to date across all three cars = $500).

My first-hand and 5+ years experience with Dinan, with BMS, with four F10s and well-over 200,000 miles leads me to conclude that, at least in this particular car and comparison, there's just no reason to spend the money on an ECU tune when the piggybacks yield better gains and to my first-hand experience, offer the same levels of reliability.
Pure & simple i don't want a stock tune on my car & I don't have the know how to start messing about with my own cars parameters. I prefer a custom tune that's bespoke to my individual car & given no 2 stock M5's appear to have the same outputs I'd pretty sure it's a far safer option to. My car's output is just shy of 700bhp from purely the custom tune, so as far as i can tell is comparable if not better than the current piggy back systems on the market as Dinan's stage 2 claims require new intakes & an exhaust which alone are likely contributing 25-30bhp. I also have the top speed limiter removed which is something I believe none of the piggy back systems offer?.

I'm happy to pay a premium for a bespoke product that's fully warranted. I wouldn't however be comfortable paying Dinan money purely for the warranty given a virtually identical product can be bought for considerably less.

The other reason which is the same to a degree to your preference is knowledge & trust. I've used my tuner on 4 high power vehicles & they've always exceeded their advertised claims & provide a level of Customer Service & warranty that's second to none & for that reason I'd again pay a slight premium.

Paul

MY15 LCi F10 M5 (DMS Stage 2 Tuned) in Monte Carlo Blue With Extended Sakhir Orange Interior. Options: Bootlid Operation Powered, Loudspeaker System Harman Kardon, Reversing Assist Camera, Surround View, Universal Remote Control, Internet & Sun Protection Glass
w8pmc is offline  
post #49 of 59 Old 27th October 2014, 08:39 PM
limeypride
Member, P500 Sport, DSC On (>700)
 
limeypride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: WA
Posts: 756
Thanks: 25
Thanked 47 Times in 39 Posts
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by w8pmc View Post
Pure & simple i don't want a stock tune on my car & I don't have the know how to start messing about with my own cars parameters. I prefer a custom tune that's bespoke to my individual car & given no 2 stock M5's appear to have the same outputs I'd pretty sure it's a far safer option to. My car's output is just shy of 700bhp from purely the custom tune, so as far as i can tell is comparable if not better than the current piggy back systems on the market as Dinan's stage 2 claims require new intakes & an exhaust which alone are likely contributing 25-30bhp. I also have the top speed limiter removed which is something I believe none of the piggy back systems offer?.

I'm happy to pay a premium for a bespoke product that's fully warranted. I wouldn't however be comfortable paying Dinan money purely for the warranty given a virtually identical product can be bought for considerably less.

The other reason which is the same to a degree to your preference is knowledge & trust. I've used my tuner on 4 high power vehicles & they've always exceeded their advertised claims & provide a level of Customer Service & warranty that's second to none & for that reason I'd again pay a slight premium.
Commenting in general on the Dinan aspects (and, again, from first-hand experience): I tried exploiting Dinan's warranty once when I had intermittent hiccups in the drivetrain--I never succeeded as they and BMW argued back and forth as to who was at fault all the while leaving me with a broken car and no loaner--the warranty looks good on paper but wait until you try and exercise it. Ultimately, BMW just took the fix but they never accepted the blame. C'est la vie.

Anyhoo--so I'm guessing we're quoting horsepower at the crank as do Dinan (it's a bigger number I guess so it always sounds better). The number I've cited for both my cars is based on wheel-horsepower and that requires a little bit of maths(adding an "s" for the fellow Brits) to extrapolate the crank horsepower by factoring in drive-train loss. The common thinking here seems to be 15% which means that my cars have both put down virtually identical numbers from two different dynos where their common crank-horsepower = ~720. Of course, these are just numbers (but they're fun to determine and play "top trumps" with ).

The fastest 1/4 mile F10 M5 I know of has the BMS tune and ran 11.07secs and 130mph I believe.

I guess the point I'm circling around is that the power of various BMS-tuned cars (of which I've had two personally) appear to be much more consistent than your tuner would have us believe. That said, given that your tune seems to be a UK-only thing, I doubt we'll ever be able to put a BMS-tuned M5 and yours side-by-side (short of me shipping my piggyback and you shipping your engine :-) ... that's a shame, that would be a lot of fun!
limeypride is offline  
post #50 of 59 Old 27th October 2014, 09:30 PM
w8pmc
m5board.comoholic (>1000 posts)
 
w8pmc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: North West England
Age: 49
Posts: 1,222
Thanks: 6
Thanked 57 Times in 51 Posts
Perhaps u misunderstood as my tuner has made no comment regarding any other tuner or tune option, those were purely my observations & thoughts.

I can't recall what losses they applied on the dyno dynamics RR when it ran but the increase over stated stock BHP was 131bhp & about 80lbsft torque. That's with purely the custom tune as my car has no other modifications. If I was to add an aftermarket exhaust & intakes, those headline figures with a revised tune to take the hardware changes into account would rise.

Totally agree though that these are just figures. My car had a few minor tweaks today which it's believed extracted a little more torque & smoothed out the torque curve a little. Saying that it was immense before but it now peaks a little lower & lasts a little longer. Didn't have time to put her on the RR this time so i'll have to wait until next time I'm local to get the numbers.
w8pmc is offline  
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 4 (0 members and 4 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Linear Mode
Rate This Thread:



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
E63 M6 Wheels on an F10 M5 AGS F10 M5 Discussion 3 27th April 2012 04:07 PM
anyone considering the 2012 E63 AMG over the F10? mainly F10 M5 Discussion 27 5th January 2012 11:20 PM
F10 higher top speed (186mph) from factory german market and manual for u.s? Javacore99 F10 M5 Discussion 4 26th March 2011 01:06 AM
Luxury car market may never look the same bernhtp GTBoard.com: General Sportscars 9 14th October 2009 04:39 PM
Sports Car Market Profile of Z8 MileHiM5 E39 M5 and E52 Z8 Discussion 0 6th February 2003 07:27 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome