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An s65 swap is a great idea. Change my mind.

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s65 swap
17K views 40 replies 16 participants last post by  terraphantm 
#1 ·
So I am in the middle of a full teardown on my 105k mile s85. VANOS (or should I say THANOS) decided to mail it in and ate itself (more specifically the outer race and bearing were destroyed).


I pulled the engine and brought it to a shop when I found lots of metal in the oil, partially because they had just done the rod bearings about 10k ago and partially because I don't feel all that qualified to do a full teardown.


Anyhow, the shop has been great to me but they won't use anything other than a brand new vanos pump to the tune of 4200.00. I found some for closer to 3k, but that's not exactly fair to try and force them to use. All said and done the repairs will total about 6k.


Here is where I start to feel froggy. I could source a used s65 for 6-9k, and yes it would be down on power (414 vs 500 as far as HP) as well as torque, it has a low-pressure VANOS system and would be much lower cost (theoretically) in the long term.


My current M5 is a manual, so no issues worrying about DSG/SMG and other than some potential motor mount modifications, it should be a fairly simple swap.


Looking for valid reasons on why/how this is a terrible idea, and it has to be more than just HP. I would have all sorts of room up front for activities (i.e. a supercharger) in the future and would probably drop the gearing down to a 4.10 our back to help compensate for the whopping 86 hp decrease.


So there it is, take your shots gentleman (the harder and more brutal the better).
 
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#2 ·
Comparable S85 used crate motors can be had around 7K usd. Also you know you'll be nearly 100 lbs of torque lower which will hurt with the weight penalty way more than the hp. My only gripe with our cars is lack of torque.


imho the V10 is what makes the car , if you are going to do an engine swap I'd look for a more inventive engine choice.


Viper/SRT10 V10? 6.4 hemi? 5.2 voodoo? LSA?


A S65 M5 is just a fatter E90 M3. as far as having room to supercharge... if you spend the money to swap in a S65(which wont be plug and play) and then supercharge, I'd be surprised if the cost wasn't more than fixing your motor and supercharging it to begin with.


But hey your money your car. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.
 
#5 ·
It's going to cost way more than a zero mile S85 off the shelf would cost to accomplish something like that. It's not a direct swap. Custom fab everything mechanical from mounts to transmission to exhaust, intake, chassis modifications for fitment, etc. Custom engine control system. Custom chassis electronics integration. Tuning. You could probably just buy a new car for what that would all cost.
 
#7 ·
That's a terrible idea, honestly.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I thought of this while back and i agree its a good idea but not a commitment i recommend. If you plan to keep the car for a long time its a good idea from stand point of reliability.

It wont be cheaper simply because you will have to add dme, harness, programm(you said youre not qualified so possibly pay someone) and gobs of hours to ghetto rig things that are not suppose to be in this chassy. You dont know if hood will even close with the intake. List goes on. S65 would be a cool swap on a wagon but its not practical no matter how you look at it. UNLESS you can get a super good deal on it and have time and experience which it sounds you lack.

PS i would love to see it and it worth a shot. try mpartsworldwide in NJ they have good stock and may get you a good deal on a set
 
#10 ·
Well, I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of hate for this... I'm with you.

As much as I love my M6 6sp vert, these cars are fundamentally flawed and I think an engine swap (non BMW) is a brilliant idea. Imagine not dreading thr chime, an engine you're not worried about every time you start it, something that you're not "preventatively" replacing CRITICAL engine components to avoid the grenade scenario, something that at least somewhat RESEMBLES reliability.

Me? I'm plannning to do rod bearings this spring and to drive my car for one summer and if that goes well, maybe a second summer. If, the expected happens and something catastrophic happens to this engine made of glass, I'll NEVER replace it with another s85... Yes it's amazing, yes it sounds glorious, but let's be honest, it's a horribly flawed engine. In 2007 (my MY) it was untouchable in terms or power and performance but reliability, give me a break - the idea of taking this thing on a long road trip is a joke and shame on BMW for what this has turned into. It's a lab experiment that should never have seen production. The S85 is beta at best!!! Vanos pump, vanos solenoids, rod bearings, throttle actuators, injectors, SMG.... What doesn't fail on these that doesn't cost thousands to replace?

Enter the LS SWAP!!! (Yeah I heard the groan...)

IMHO, swapping it with something you know you can count on, is the only thing that makes sense if you love the look, the handling and want SOME reliability. Even an unreliable engine swap would be better than the perpetual expectation of failure of the S85... Alternatively if you have more money than you know what to do with or you're just a masochist who loves to watch your guilty pleasure leave on a flatbed, while you "Burn My Wallet" (BMW life) by all means keep spending money to keep the pin in your S85 grenade, but only just... You'll suffer eventually.

Sloppy mechanics gets 900HP on a with a junkyard LS with a new cam and a turbo, surely a marginal increase in component quality could yeild happiness for E6# owners too.

I'm not naive and of course this is a huge job and subbing this job out to someone would be very expensive but if you're willing to learn and integratethings that were never meant to work together anything is possible, as long as you ignore the naysayers you can make anything happen. FTW! And FBMW! (Last one I'll ever own)

:endsoapbox

Sent from my LG-M703 using Tapatalk
 
#12 ·
I respect that, but why? Do you honestly think that these cars will ever be worth anything more than the pathetic 20-30K that they are now? Anyone who knows anything about them knows that they're "an amazing car but you'd be crazy to own one".

I know I have a unicorn, but ive struggled with this. 1 of 378 manual M6 verts, but if it grenades, would it make sense for me to sell it for peanuts in broken albeit original condition instead of having it live on with an engine that would actually last and outperform the original just because?

Just creating dialogue here, obviously I bought the car because I loved it but where do you draw the line?

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#18 ·
I have to laugh at people saying the parts for these cars are expensive. Well, this was a $100K+ car derived using F1 tech back at the time, and people who paid such dough for them then could easily afford a few $4-5K repairs if needed. All of us, except for original owners (if such still exist) are not BMWs target market with this car.

So yeah, the parts are not cheap, considering these are $20K cars now. If you are so afraid they are going to break, sell the car. Take a loss, move on. Don't make Frankenmonsters with garbage motors out of the m-cars. There are plenty of cheap 5 and 6 series that can be used for this.
 
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#20 ·
I have to laugh at people saying the parts for these cars are expensive. Well, this was a $100K+ car derived using F1 tech back at the time, and people who paid such dough for them then could easily afford a few $4-5K repairs if needed. All of us, except for original owners (if such still exist) are not BMWs target market with this car.



So yeah, the parts are not cheap, considering these are $20K cars now. If you are so afraid they are going to break, sell the car. Take a loss, move on. Don't make Frankenmonsters with garbage motors out of the m-cars. There are plenty of cheap 5 and 6 series that can be used for this.
Laugh if you like, but I'm sorry, the price for parts is stupid, plain and simple. For no reason other than they can be and people will buy them. It's disgraceful.

I'll admit, bought my car for the engine and for the sound and feeling of driving it, but let's be real.... People should do what they want! It's metal with other rotating metal inside it. Hell, if by some miracle of reverse economics these things increase in value, people who "frankenmonster" a few with reliable engines will increase the value of those who kept them "pure". Honestly, you think if some poor schmuck throws a rod and has finally had it with the made from glass S85, you think he should give the car away for nothing and buy a 530 to Frankenstein instead? To what? Keep the breed pure?!?! Why? Because it's so precious? C'mon.....

Here's a thought... Let's say I have 1000 Blackberry shares. In 2008 they were worth $148 CAD/share but through the wonder of depreciation and horrible design, today they're only worth $12.12... Should I keep putting money into it and pretend they're still worth 148K? :)

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#22 · (Edited)
My only stipulation is this. M6 and M5 chassis suck. Only thing that makes this car great is s85. If you want to do a swap, there are way better chassis to do an engine swap into. I'm not even sure you could move your chair or roll down window if you disconnect engine input from the dme. Never mind climate control. Are you going to run 2 DME? One for engine, one for chassis? Do they need to talk to each other? I think it's way too much work.

I find e60 m5 chassis too heavy and too complicated. Gun to my head, if I ever do it, I probably would take it down to a shell, trace out all the light wires, and do all the wiring from scratch. But in the end, this is a heavy chassis, and if you're doing all that work, I could think of other chassis that will be lighter, handle better, and also look just as poised driving down a highway.
 
#23 ·
There's a lot of dreaming going on in this thread..... engine swaps are not easy or cheap even with "simple" vehicles.


To ground some of you, "common" swaps like an LS into a 07-11 jeep wrangler or a flyin miata swap will hit you for well over 20k.


That's with all of your custom parts prefabbed ready to bolt in and with a motor that doesn't need a 1/10th of the harness/ sensors that the s85/65 need. Compared to what's being advocated, it would be cheaper just to buy two super clean M5s that work not to mention pay BMW service center prices to fix your car.


I'm all for doing cool/dumb things to your car just because but this is a weapons grade more money than sense endeavor.


If the OP is fine with cutting the deep 5 figure check to get this done is he looking to adopt a grown man? I can sure think up some other unique ways to spend his money.


Perhaps I fell hard for the bait.
 
#24 ·
Perhaps I fell hard for the bait.
BAIT???? I'll have you know the OP is onto something here. I thought long and hard about this post and clearly you BIMMER FAN BOIS aren't thinking clearly throwing your popped collar dollars to Angela Merkle . I'm going with the Suzuki G10 I3 Engine, sure it's has a 10th of the POWA of your 500 hp glass engine but I'll race any of you any time. You might take me off the line but I'll honk and wave as you sit at the gas station and then wave again while you sit on the side of the road with your rods hanging out of your block and your vanos hp pump's bearing race rolling past your once $100k paper weight.

FEAR ME!
 

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#36 · (Edited)
Well, I have to say this actually got a lot more interesting than I originally thought it would. I would just like to address some of the common themes here guys. I asked for some honest input, and I got some.

Yeah, it's not gonna be cheap and I never said it was going to be. I said that in the long run, it could be cheaper than an S85. If your vanos pump decides to have a bad hair day and turn in to a frag grenade, you could easily wreck your crank by the time you discovered it. Yeah, you could have it turned and get undersized bearings, or get a new crank. You're talking 3k here, 5k there, before you know it you're carrying the one....and you get the point. Maybe you get lucky and it's just the pump. That's still 3300 for the pump, couple hundred in fluids and other expendables, and if you aren't able to do it yourself the labor.



Someone mentioned the availability of "crate" motors for 8k, and lets clear this up; a "tested" engine for sale on ebay from a salvaged car is not a crate motor, its a gamble lol. Could be good, could be well, you know, an s85 being a diva. You just never know what's inside.



As far as an LS swap, hell yeah, it would be cool and even better to make some of you all with hurt feelings get really upset. That's actually my bread and butter and if I wasn't opposed to gutting and cutting on my car, I'd do it in a heartbeat. An LS swapped BMW is on my list of things I want to build, but not this one, it's just in too good of shape to go that route.



Circling back to the reason for an S65 instead of something else, there are a couple of reasons. Electronics compatibility is a big one. As Jim mentioned the pre LCI cars run EWS3 and the S65 runs EWS4. That's something that I think you could get past, and save the integrity of the OEM instrumentation. The S65 is not "basically an S85 sans 2 cylinders", it has a low pressure VANOS system which is far less problematic. Yeah, the rod and main bearings have issues, but so does the S85. I don't think expecting 50-60k miles on a set of bearings is unreasonable. But it does share a bolt pattern with the transmission and the motor mounts look similar. I would just but a used subframe to modify for the difference in length. Tuning wouldn't be an issue until it was modified, I would be integrating the S65 harness and DME into the E60 chassis. Not plug and play, but nowhere near as bad as trying to integrate something like an LS pcm.



Yeah, it wouldn't be cheap but it wouldn't be a far reach from buying a used S85 and doing rod bearings and whatever else it might need. If there was ever a time I decided to play Russian roulette with an S85 it should be possible. At any rate, I asked for some honest input and got it lol. I'm not ruling it out, but I'm also not ruling it out. Part of me wants to do it just to hurt some feelings.

PS- Don't get too sensitive here guys. Cars are supposed to be fun.
 
#38 ·
Fiscal utopia.
 
#37 ·
I'm for whatever. At least you're interested in keeping a BMW engine in it. However...

I can't say I know all the ins and outs of the S85/S65 platforms but I have or had a hand in building more than a few cars that involved engine swaps with significant mechanical and electrical needs to retain functionality and I do not see any way this gets done for less than the lifetime cost of maintaining an S85. The cost of custom fab work alone in just the simple stuff like mounts, exhaust, plumbing, etc. could probably pay for a couple rod bearing changes. It just doesn't seem realistic in any way.
 
#39 · (Edited)
Just so I'm clear we're gonna spend more money than it takes to fix a problem on putting in a different engine with less power, that has it's own problems. Make sense. I guess

If you were gonna do that, go with the S62 reliable and more torque or pony up to an S63 or be a real man and move up to the the S70/2
 
#41 ·
Big difference is the S65 is much closer to plug and play electrically and mechanically. Like there might be a little bit of tweaking to do Re: EWS, but nothing major. For everything else, you'd basically have to emulate the E6x/E9x DME messages. Of the engines you mentioned, S63 would probably be the most doable, but still would require far more custom work.

Stroker S65 can be interesting since those also fix the rod bearing issues... but you're looking at a huge cost at that point, even without taking into account any custom work you'd need.

On the topic of spending big money to fix deficiencies of the platform, I do wonder if it's feasible at all to modify the S85 heads to accept the low pressure VANOS.
 
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