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E60 M5 and E61 M5 Touring Discussion 2005- Advertiser's Forum

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post #51 of 71 Old 3rd December 2018, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiftytwoeighty View Post
150,000+ miles of having fun.

And Iím going to leave this here:



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Awesome! Was that 2nd gear after merging onto 73? What a long gear!

Looks like you have the same slight rubbing issue I have over big bumps at highway speed haha. You try dialing in more negative camber? You're running 305/30/19 in the rear? I'm running 295/30/20 but Pilot Sport 4S'.
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post #52 of 71 Old 3rd December 2018, 10:31 PM
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Camber does increase faster than body roll, but it still doesn't get you enough for track use-- but camber plates could also sort that. More to start with, and then more still under cornering load.
That depends on suspension geometry which I don't think anybody knows. Stock camber is negative to start with. Then if camber increases faster than roll that means camber can only increase as the wheel compresses (talking only about the outside wheel just to be clear). If the tire has even more neg camber while turning why would the outer shoulder take a beating? Something doesn't sound right.

As camber is defined with respect to a vertical line (not the car vertical plane which changes as body rolls) speaking of camber increasing faster than body roll is not an accurate term. We may be confusing camber with the angle between the tire and the body vertical line.
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post #53 of 71 Old 3rd December 2018, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by V10HOWL View Post
Awesome! Was that 2nd gear after merging onto 73? What a long gear!

Looks like you have the same slight rubbing issue I have over big bumps at highway speed haha. You try dialing in more negative camber? You're running 305/30/19 in the rear? I'm running 295/30/20 but Pilot Sport 4S'.
An easy roll on 3rd gear, going into the on-ramp. I wasn't on the throttle until I knew I had the "all clear" from the rear. You can see me match my speed to the blue Taco, before I decide merge.

My co-worker, in his McLaren 650s, was following/catching us.

Yes, I'm rubbing my 305s a little -- just too lazy to raise adjust my coilovers for the wheelset I'm currently running.

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post #54 of 71 Old 3rd December 2018, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flacoramos View Post
That depends on suspension geometry which I don't think anybody knows. Stock camber is negative to start with. Then if camber increases faster than roll that means camber can only increase as the wheel compresses (talking only about the outside wheel just to be clear). If the tire has even more neg camber while turning why would the outer shoulder take a beating? Something doesn't sound right.

As camber is defined with respect to a vertical line (not the car vertical plane which changes as body rolls) speaking of camber increasing faster than body roll is not an accurate term. We may be confusing camber with the angle between the tire and the body vertical line.
It's actually super easy to check without knowing anything about the geometry-- watch the camber change as you lower the car.

The outside of the tire takes a beating on track because the tire is rolling over. You can also decrease it by increasing pressure, so it rolls over less.
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post #55 of 71 Old 3rd December 2018, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
It's actually super easy to check without knowing anything about the geometry-- watch the camber change as you lower the car.

The outside of the tire takes a beating on track because the tire is rolling over. You can also decrease it by increasing pressure, so it rolls over less.
Humm... Yes camber increases as suspension is compressed. But you claimed it increases more than body roll (during a turn). THAT is what I don't know. If camber (with respect to a true vertical - not the car vertical) stayed negative then the outer shoulder would not suffer.
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post #56 of 71 Old 4th December 2018, 06:27 AM
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Anyone know a place/person near Orange County, CA that can Euro tune? thanks
If you're looking for the Euro SMG tune, I've done a few for local owners here in LA. Message me and we'll work something out.
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post #57 of 71 Old 4th December 2018, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by flacoramos View Post
Humm... Yes camber increases as suspension is compressed. But you claimed it increases more than body roll (during a turn). THAT is what I don't know. If camber (with respect to a true vertical - not the car vertical) stayed negative then the outer shoulder would not suffer.
That's not correct-- you're assuming infinitely stiff tire sidewall. You can see this by altering how beat up the side wall gets by tweaking tire pressures.

From BMW's training materials on the front suspension geometry used in the e60:
Quote:
The true benefits of the double-pivot suspension become more evident during turns.
On a traditional single-pivot design, the camber and caster remain static during steering
maneuvers. On a vehicle with positive caster, the wheels tend to “flop over” during turns.
This situation reduces the tire contact area with the road and increases the effort
required for steering wheel return. The steering offset (scrub) also remains fixed which
has a negative impact on steering wheel return as well.
The double-pivot design allows the “imaginary” lower pivot point to change relative location
during turns. The tire which is on the outside of the turn is carrying the majority of
the load. Therefore it is the outside tire which must have the most contact area with the
road surface.
On a turn, the double-pivot design causes the caster and camber on the outside wheel
to become closer to zero. This optimizes the “contact patch” between the tire and the
road greatly enhancing handling characteristics.
The body roll is also reduced by the caster change towards zero. One of the other
benefits of this arrangement is the variable steering offset. The variable steering
offset during turns provides for better “returnability” of the steering wheel.
That said, with most setups, the lower the car the worse the camber curve (unless corrective measures have been taken). So, if you've lowered the car, it is possible the camber isn't keeping up with the body roll. I still think it's unlikely, though-- a sporty car where the camber doesn't keep up with the body roll would be pretty ineptly setup, and BMW is not inept at chassis setup :P

Last edited by Obioban; 4th December 2018 at 01:44 PM.
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post #58 of 71 Old 4th December 2018, 02:41 PM
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post #59 of 71 Old 4th December 2018, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
That's not correct-- you're assuming infinitely stiff tire sidewall. You can see this by altering how beat up the side wall gets by tweaking tire pressures.

From BMW's training materials on the front suspension geometry used in the e60:

On a turn, the double-pivot design causes the caster and camber on the outside wheel
to become closer to zero.

Ah yes, I'm ignoring tires and focusing on camber alone. Now the highlighted sentence above shows that camber does not become more negative during a turn (faster than body roll as you stated earlier). As written it implies exactly the opposite. It goes from negative towards zero: ie for a given turn the body roll angle is greater than camber gain (in the negative camber direction) on the camber vs. suspension travel curve.

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Originally Posted by Skills View Post
Thread jacked again... lol
Happens
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post #60 of 71 Old 4th December 2018, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by flacoramos View Post
Ah yes, I'm ignoring tires and focusing on camber alone. Now the highlighted sentence above shows that camber does not become more negative during a turn (faster than body roll as you stated earlier). As written it implies exactly the opposite. It goes from negative towards zero: ie for a given turn the body roll angle is greater than camber gain (in the negative camber direction) on the camber vs. suspension travel curve.



Happens

Yeah... cracks me up how threads evolve.
I am a repeat offender for sure.
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