Another Throttle Actuator Failure/Tear Down/Attempted Repair - Page 4 - BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums
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post #31 of 52 Old 17th August 2016, 07:38 AM
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post #32 of 52 Old 17th August 2016, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt7085 View Post
The one with the sharpie writing on it. What does that mean?
It's in the PM the I originally sent. One of them was the one that caused the sow return of the lever, as if there was a
one way' short of the motor contest only on the return leg. The other one was fine for movement of the lever but was facing the test as indicated in my posts - i.e. the second pass of a single test.

It's funny. I know that I wrote and explain it but U can't find the PM nor an email.

Put the writing one pn a TA bottom without power and manually move the lever. I f it returns to start position slowly then that's the one. Otherwise, it's the other one. Sorry that I can't be of more help but there was lots of stuff happening at the same time in JULy.
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post #33 of 52 Old 17th August 2016, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmak View Post
It's in the PM the I originally sent. One of them was the one that caused the [slow] return of the lever, as if there was a
one way' short of the motor contest only on the return leg. The other one was fine for movement of the lever but was [failing] the test as indicated in my posts - i.e. the second pass of a single test.

It's funny. I know that I wrote and explain it but U can't find the PM nor an email.
Sorry man, I am not disregarding your info: The PM did not mention the sharpie writing. I just read them over again, to be sure. I just wanted to clarify which one I had on my hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmak View Post
Put the writing one pn a TA bottom without power and manually move the lever. If it returns to start position slowly then that's the one. Otherwise, it's the other one. Sorry that I can't be of more help but there was lots of stuff happening at the same time in JULy.
Anyways, on the one with the sharpie on it (e.g. the slow return version from what I understand) what I noticed is that when I move the assembly by hand to feel the resistance, when I first turn on the supply on, there is definite "normal" movement resistance. The PCB is "shorting" the motor while inactive, causing the resistance. This is normal behavior. When I start my DK-CAN program, while moving the assembly I can feel the resistance suddenly stop. This is not normal behavior. Somehow the control stops driving the bridge all together, e.g. the bridge is set to tri-state / high impedance. At that point it is the spring force returning the throttles to zero. This is a safety feature in my opinion.

What I am trying to determine is that I wait too long changing the set point value to a new value because I am punching set points on my keyboard. If I keep the value exactly the same for a long time (multiple seconds), there may be a safety time out in the TA's hardware that says that the TA reasonably suspects that it lost communication e.g. the DME is not updating the values, despite the fact that the DK-CAN is still alive. (I would design it like that for safety.) From the on-engine traces I took, I can see this as well: The status byte of the TA is changed from 'active' to 'ready' after each pedal pump. I will have to put a timer in my code to facilitate this as well and make a little state machine.

Last edited by rt7085; 17th August 2016 at 01:00 PM.
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post #34 of 52 Old 17th August 2016, 04:11 PM Thread Starter
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Lots of good info rt7085, if you are in need an additional TA for testing I have one that I didn't butcher yet.

As for my M5, I'm done waiting. I should have two new TA's this Friday.

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post #35 of 52 Old 17th August 2016, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt7085 View Post
Sorry man, I am not disregarding your info: The PM did not mention the sharpie writing. I just read them over again, to be sure. I just wanted to clarify which one I had on my hands.



Anyways, on the one with the sharpie on it (e.g. the slow return version from what I understand) what I noticed is that when I move the assembly by hand to feel the resistance, when I first turn on the supply on, there is definite "normal" movement resistance. The PCB is "shorting" the motor while inactive, causing the resistance. This is normal behavior. When I start my DK-CAN program, while moving the assembly I can feel the resistance suddenly stop. This is not normal behavior. Somehow the control stops driving the bridge all together, e.g. the bridge is set to tri-state / high impedance. At that point it is the spring force returning the throttles to zero. This is a safety feature in my opinion.

What I am trying to determine is that I wait too long changing the set point value to a new value because I am punching set points on my keyboard. If I keep the value exactly the same for a long time (multiple seconds), there may be a safety time out in the TA's hardware that says that the TA reasonably suspects that it lost communication e.g. the DME is not updating the values, despite the fact that the DK-CAN is still alive. (I would design it like that for safety.) From the on-engine traces I took, I can see this as well: The status byte of the TA is changed from 'active' to 'ready' after each pedal pump. I will have to put a timer in my code to facilitate this as well and make a little state machine.
Try the circuit board on a bottom, without power and move the little lever by hand. You will quickly see which one has resistance on the way back, and for the other there should be no resistance.
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post #36 of 52 Old 22nd August 2016, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt7085 View Post
Sorry man, I am not disregarding your info: The PM did not mention the sharpie writing. I just read them over again, to be sure. I just wanted to clarify which one I had on my hands.



Anyways, on the one with the sharpie on it (e.g. the slow return version from what I understand) what I noticed is that when I move the assembly by hand to feel the resistance, when I first turn on the supply on, there is definite "normal" movement resistance. The PCB is "shorting" the motor while inactive, causing the resistance. This is normal behavior. When I start my DK-CAN program, while moving the assembly I can feel the resistance suddenly stop. This is not normal behavior. Somehow the control stops driving the bridge all together, e.g. the bridge is set to tri-state / high impedance. At that point it is the spring force returning the throttles to zero. This is a safety feature in my opinion.

What I am trying to determine is that I wait too long changing the set point value to a new value because I am punching set points on my keyboard. If I keep the value exactly the same for a long time (multiple seconds), there may be a safety time out in the TA's hardware that says that the TA reasonably suspects that it lost communication e.g. the DME is not updating the values, despite the fact that the DK-CAN is still alive. (I would design it like that for safety.) From the on-engine traces I took, I can see this as well: The status byte of the TA is changed from 'active' to 'ready' after each pedal pump. I will have to put a timer in my code to facilitate this as well and make a little state machine.
I am pretty sure that I have confirmed that the "issue" is not changing the set-point value often enough per unit time. Yesterday, I ran some half-controlled experiments: I powered up @gmak 's sharpie marked TA again and kept changing values rapidly. I could do this forever. I kept doing for approx. 5 minutes but it never shut down. I powered it off and back on, and it kept running properly. However, if you get off the controls without forcing it back into standby, the unit will stop working. This is a cheap confirmation that it is my way of controlling the unit that causes my bench setup to stall. So, I will modify my code with a stjatemachine that will time out when the set point does not change for a while, and force the unit in standby (not shutdown). This will of course cause the values to shut. But I should be able to continue to operate it without it going out to lunch.

What is very interesting is that when the unit stalls, the only way to revive it is by waiting a very long time with power OFF for the unit to return to operation. A long time means: various hours. I will have to determine how long exactly. Somewhere in the circuit, some RC time constant voltage must be "trapped". I gotta figure this out.....
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post #37 of 52 Old 26th August 2016, 07:36 AM
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Greeting JColley and other forum members, I recently registered as a new member but must admit that I have followed this site for quite some time now and your knowledge and contributions shared have helped me tremendously. It has guided me through maintenance and repairs. Want to say thank you to all. I recently change my actuator gears on my 07 M5 6speed (83K miles) just as a precautionary measure. No check engine lights before or after.

However I seem to experience some interesting characteristics that I've noticed over the years of owing this car . Going on 3 yrs now. Issue goes like this , say I'm cruising doing 60mph for about 30 secs. Then decide to slight tip in the throttle to go little faster I get this sudden "kick" in the pedal feel. Almost seems like someone turned a circuit on suddenly, producing that feel. It will not do it a second time if I back off the gas and tip in again right away. I have a theory that this is the throttle valves opening and closing through sudden or higher current flow from the DME, but I could be wrong. Weird thing is that I can sometime feel if closing up when my foot is almost off the pedal during deceleration?

Curious if any members out there have experienced any such thing. Again I have no lights or fault codes. Did run Actuator test from time to time with DISV57 but all checks out ok? Car runs strong!
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post #38 of 52 Old 26th August 2016, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfiveusa View Post
Greeting JColley and other forum members, I recently registered as a new member but must admit that I have followed this site for quite some time now and your knowledge and contributions shared have helped me tremendously. It has guided me through maintenance and repairs. Want to say thank you to all. I recently change my actuator gears on my 07 M5 6speed (83K miles) just as a precautionary measure. No check engine lights before or after.

However I seem to experience some interesting characteristics that I've noticed over the years of owing this car . Going on 3 yrs now. Issue goes like this , say I'm cruising doing 60mph for about 30 secs. Then decide to slight tip in the throttle to go little faster I get this sudden "kick" in the pedal feel. Almost seems like someone turned a circuit on suddenly, producing that feel. It will not do it a second time if I back off the gas and tip in again right away. I have a theory that this is the throttle valves opening and closing through sudden or higher current flow from the DME, but I could be wrong. Weird thing is that I can sometime feel if closing up when my foot is almost off the pedal during deceleration?

Curious if any members out there have experienced any such thing. Again I have no lights or fault codes. Did run Actuator test from time to time with DISV57 but all checks out ok? Car runs strong!
Before my throttle actuators 'went', I did feel slight instabilities in cruising performance, especially around 3k where I statistically spent a lot of time driving on backroads. With my new TA's, that went away. So, what you say makes sense and could indeed be the TAs.

But, if you are cruising at 60 mph on the highway steady-state and you are doing this around 3000 RPM in 5th or 6th (manual) gear, I suspect the throttle bodies are closed or nearly closed. Your engine is breathing through its idle actuators. This is because there is almost no load on the engine; so it does not need much fuel because it does not need much air. If you tip in, you may open the throttle bodies a bit; you may not. It really depends how deep you tip in and how fast you do that e.g. how much torque you demand when you speed up. So, the question is: Is it your idle actuators or your throttle actuators? (And: We are not even sure if it is either; it still could be something else, say fuel pressure related issues or even clutch issues). Data logging could reveal some of this as well, e.g. point to idle or throttle bodies (or yet something else).

Couple of questions: Have you run a test routine on the IDLE actuators? Have you lubricated the throttle actuator mechanism and checked for stiction by hand (feel) when you put in new gears? Especially at the opening point? Are the throttle bodies severely carbonized? I would experiment a bit more with the depth and speed of the tip in and see if there is variations and combinations that make this issue stand out.
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post #39 of 52 Old 26th August 2016, 11:19 PM
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Thanks for for insight folks,Rt7085 what you added also makes sense,I was leaning toward the theory that the car runs just on idle actuators during cruising,therefore shuts down or closes the throttle actuators.I did find some notchiness in the passenger side actuator before changing my gears, I therefore greased the hell out of it..Now it's very flexible but still has just a little feel left..I would say 90% better.The notch occurs at about almost full opening of the the actuator lever..not at resting position so didn't think that would make a difference, besides it that much more effort to move all the trottle bodies when engaged to the actuator linkage.I also cleaned any carbon build up before reinstalling the new gears. I also run a test on just idle actuators and found nothing alarming.Sometime when changing former say 4th to 5th gear, I will feel the same kick if I slowly take my time to let my foot of the clutch and engage the throttle..It's just an irritating feel sometimes even though no codes are thrown from DME.Hopefully others can chime in if this has been experienced.Again this problem doesn't occur during fast gear changes or WOT.Thx
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post #40 of 52 Old 18th January 2018, 05:38 PM
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So my beast seems to have reached the end of the throttle actuator's life and now I'm debating whether to replace them with new ones or repair them with new gear kits. I know there's substantial savings between the two options, but from what I keep reading about other trying to repair them, is seems like a long drawn out process of trial and error that ultimately leads to either replacing the mother board and gears (basically all components). And I'm thinking between the labor to keep going back in (I'm not doing DIY on this) and all the parts to replace, it may be better off just replacing the units with new ones. What are you guy's thoughts? I do plan to keep the car for a loooooong time. So I don't want a temporary fix that will be someone else's issue down the line, cuz that someone will be me! haha.
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