What size spacer is max for OE lugs? - BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums
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post #1 of 32 Old 14th June 2019, 05:22 AM Thread Starter
Trizzuth
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What size spacer is max for OE lugs?

Anyone happen to know what size spacer you can use with the OE lugs and still catch the hub with plenty of threads and no worries or need for extended lugs?

Thx!


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post #2 of 32 Old 14th June 2019, 05:24 AM
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None. Any spacer will require extended lugs to maintain full thread engagement.


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post #3 of 32 Old 14th June 2019, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmaxx445 View Post
... to maintain full thread engagement.
+(1) Under all circumstances!

An E39 M5 reviewer on a Dutch car forum (www.autoweek.nl/reviews/artikel/bmw-m5-2000-3/, see under BIJNA FOUT = Almost Wrong) who was also using spacers, was only just in time to stop his car on a highway shoulder, immediately after feeling a strong vibration from the rear end of his car: 2 hub bolts broken, 3 hub bolts gone*, meaning zero (!) bolts left ..., a damaged rear-axle hub and a damaged wheel hub ...

The reviewer realized he got away with this pretty well ... and ordered his garage from then on to torque his longer hub bolts by 25% more: 110.6 lbf ft = 150 Nm instead of the standard 88.5 lbf ft = 120 Nm.
Increased torque is a good start, but any one here on the board (though not prescribed) using Loctite on these bolts? I'm considering it even without using spacers, after reading this horror story ...

Add the thickness of the spacer you're going to use to the standard hub bolt length and you get the required length of your new 'lugs'.

*) Friction on the threads + conical bolt heads normally keeps hub bolts in place. Longer bolts stretch more + soft (aluminium?) spacers result in more variation in contact force (and thus friction force) between wheel & conical bolt head, so more chance of hub bolts loosening.

Last edited by Freude_am_Fahren; 14th June 2019 at 04:12 PM.
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post #4 of 32 Old 14th June 2019, 04:15 PM
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Studs.

Stud conversion.

Longer bolts work of course but its a compromise, why bother.

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post #5 of 32 Old 14th June 2019, 06:29 PM
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As long as you install the studs with a locking product, like Loctite or similar.

Indeed, studs will bring you a 39% increase (from the ratio of unthreaded diameters, squared: (12.0/10.16)^2) in max. bolt force if studs are chosen identical to the bolt class (somewhere around 10.8 or 10.9 if I remember cor-rectly), so less chance of stud-rupture like in the bolt (also bold, that driver ...) case of post #3.
The percentage of reduction in stiffness (due to longer bolts or studs) is equal. Those spacers have to be accommodated, if you intend to use them. The advise to use an increased torque setting remains, when adding spacers.

Last edited by Freude_am_Fahren; 14th June 2019 at 08:02 PM.
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post #6 of 32 Old 14th June 2019, 06:57 PM
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Ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freude_am_Fahren View Post
Indeed, studs will bring you a 39% increase (from the thread-free diameter increase ratio, squared: (12.0/10.16)^2) in max. bolt force if studs are chosen identical to the bolt class (somewhere around 10.8 or 10.9 if I remember correctly), so less chance of stud-rupture.
The percentage of reduction in stiffness (due to longer bolts or studs) is equal. Those spacers have to be accommodated, if you want to use them. The torque setting, increased from standard value, remains when adding spacers.
A fastener in a hub will be subjected to variation in clamp force and tensile load along it's access due to thermal expansion, provided this is "elastic" elongation and not yield, no problem.

Here is a grate article on the stud vs. bolt debate as it pertains to cylinder heads, same principles apply.
https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/h...199.1560530620

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Last edited by KrautHammer; 14th June 2019 at 06:59 PM.
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post #7 of 32 Old 14th June 2019, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freude_am_Fahren View Post
As long as you install the studs with a locking product, like Loctite or similar.
Why would you use Loctite?

I thought Loctite is generally used to prevents bolts from loosening ( I know there are various strengths). Wheels need to come off on a somewhat infrequent, but regular, basis.

Just make sure you have the correct torque on the correct length bolts (or do the stud conversion as I have). I use 85 lb./ft. (vs. 88.5) and on the street have never had an issue with a wheel nut loosening. And I have 3mm spacers in front.

Regards,
Jerry

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post #8 of 32 Old 15th June 2019, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsfent View Post
Why would you use Loctite?
If I would convert my hub bolts to studs, I would use the medium strength Loctite (Loctite 243, the blue stuff) on the hub side of the studs, to make sure that all studs stay on the hub when I take my wheel off. With some rust on the stud top ends, extending from the wheel nuts, some studs may not and other studs may come out of the hub. I like them all to behave identical ...

If I would have to add spacers (which I'm not going to) thicker than 3 mm because of bigger calipers or because of 'looks', I would certainly start using Loctite 243, on the foot of the studs and on the wheel nuts, just for that bit of extra safety against loosening. I believe the reviewer in my post #3 used spacers of more than 10 mm, standard torque setting and no Loctite ...
See what comes of this combination!

A bolt or nut locked with Loctite 243 can still easily be removed, without damaging* any threads. You only need to clean the bolt/ stud and bolt-hole/ nut with a steel-wire brush before installing them again.

With spacers of 3 mm, and stud lengths 'only' increased accordingly, the standard torque setting will be sufficient to prevent the wheel nuts from loosening. But to remove one possible failure cause, I would install the studs in the hub using Loctite 243. They can stay put in the hub during a wheel removal.

*) Even with high strength Loctite 271 (the red stuff) this is possible, but with a slightly higher chance of damaging threads. Only removal of the stuff from the threads takes seriously more effort ...

Last edited by Freude_am_Fahren; 15th June 2019 at 12:42 AM.
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post #9 of 32 Old 15th June 2019, 03:19 PM
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Thanks for the explanation.


I completely agree about using Loctite on studs during a conversion. But I have never heard of anyone using it on lug nuts.

Lug nuts always have a torque spec. I have found that if you are close (you can be a few lb./ft. off), there should be no issue on the street. Of course, if your lug bolts are too short, then you have done something incorrectly. But you shouldn't need Loctite to keep a lug nut or bolt securely fastened.

It seems if you are doing that, then you are covering up something else that is not correct. So I guess I would rather correct the flaw than mask it.


Regards,
Jerry

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post #10 of 32 Old 16th June 2019, 08:18 PM
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Agree with others that any spacer requires longer lug boots or proper length studs. I too have never heard of using any substance, be it thread-locking compound or anti-sieze on the lug bolt or nut threads. Perhaps in special circumstances or with special equipment that's different but I go as far as cleaning the hub threads, bolt thread and seats and the wheel seat during reinstallation to ensure that it's a "dry" torque I'm applying.

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