Do I need to install water/meth system? - BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums
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post #1 of 22 Old 12th May 2019, 11:08 PM Thread Starter
DonutFlame
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Do I need to install water/meth system?

I’m getting the ESS VT-1 560 kit and swapping for a 92mm pulley. My M5 is completely stock before this.

Is a water/meth system necessary? Or an inter cooler? I am not planning any other modifications besides this supercharger kit. Is it fine to just use what’s in the kit? I’ve read that some people have heatsoak issues when running it as is.

What situations would you need an inter cooler or water/meth setup? I want to maintain reliability as much as possible. Is meth just for additional horsepower or does it help with cooler temperature?

Also, I live in Utah if that matters, so it can get hot during summer

Last edited by DonutFlame; 12th May 2019 at 11:38 PM.
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post #2 of 22 Old 12th May 2019, 11:31 PM
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A non intercooled kit is silly
Intercooler for sure
Meth also keeps temps down but is flammable

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post #3 of 22 Old 12th May 2019, 11:44 PM Thread Starter
DonutFlame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craze View Post
A non intercooled kit is silly
Intercooler for sure
Meth also keeps temps down but is flammable


Is an intercooler more “fool proof”?

What I mean is less things to fail and worry about, like installing gauges, installing a tank and rerouting wires, etc?

Or does an intercooler also have its own issues? (I’m aware sometimes you have to trim the bumper but that’s not a big deal to me)


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post #4 of 22 Old 12th May 2019, 11:47 PM
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Meth kit is recommended when you up the boost with the 92mm pulley. I have the same kit with stock pulley and even in moderate temps suffer from heat soak after a few spirited accelerations.


Without additional cooling, the 92mm pulley will yield negligible gains after a few dry runs, maybe even decrease overall performance. There are a few youtube videos from vehicle virgins (racing a S85 M6) where they swap the pulley from stock to 92mm and and the result was same if not worse due to heat soak, and the ambient temp was like 50F.


Primary benefit from the smaller pulley is that the boost kicks in at lower rpm so butt dyno will tell you it's quicker. Not worth the added risk IMO.
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post #5 of 22 Old 12th May 2019, 11:49 PM Thread Starter
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Do I need to install water/meth system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmzcee View Post
Meth kit is recommended when you up the boost with the 92mm pulley. I have the same kit with stock pulley and even in moderate temps suffer from heat soak after a few spirited accelerations.


Without additional cooling, the 92mm pulley will yield negligible gains after a few dry runs, maybe even decrease overall performance. There are a few youtube videos from vehicle virgins (racing a S85 M6) where they swap the pulley from stock to 92mm and and the result was same if not worse due to heat soak, and the ambient temp was like 50F.


Primary benefit from the smaller pulley is that the boost kicks in at lower rpm so butt dyno will tell you it's quicker. Not worth the added risk IMO.


Thanks for the advice. So what you’re saying is that the 92mm pulley doesn’t actually add any overall horsepower? It just makes boost kick in at lower rpm?

If I stuck with the stock pulley would just an intercooler be sufficient?


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post #6 of 22 Old 13th May 2019, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonutFlame View Post
Thanks for the advice. So what you’re saying is that the 92mm pulley doesn’t actually add any overall horsepower? It just makes boost kick in at lower rpm?

If I stuck with the stock pulley would just an intercooler be sufficient?


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In theory, the smaller pulley should produce more boost equating to more hp. But in reality, without the added necessary cooling and retune - the gains are negligible.



Watch this vid and decide for yourself
+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


I'd just leave it stock and test if heat soak is an issue enough for you to warrant shelling out extra cash for meth kit or FMIC.

Last edited by mmzcee; 13th May 2019 at 12:00 AM.
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post #7 of 22 Old 13th May 2019, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmzcee View Post
In theory, the smaller pulley should produce more boost equating to more hp. But in reality, without the added necessary cooling and retune - the gains are negligible.



Watch this vid and decide for yourself
+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


I'd just leave it stock and test if heat soak is an issue enough for you to warrant shelling out extra cash for meth kit or FMIC.
This was my experience exactly. I added meth as there were really no viable intercoolers available during my build. The heatsoak on these E39s is significant in STOCK form (saw many pictures of guys at the track with ice bags on the plenums between runs). Even worse with addition of a blower. I would add meth again in a second (already put a kit on my M4 build)

Happy to help in anyway I can

Brian

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post #8 of 22 Old 13th May 2019, 03:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blockdoc View Post
This was my experience exactly. I added meth as there were really no viable intercoolers available during my build. The heatsoak on these E39s is significant in STOCK form (saw many pictures of guys at the track with ice bags on the plenums between runs). Even worse with addition of a blower. I would add meth again in a second (already put a kit on my M4 build)

Happy to help in anyway I can

Brian
If I were to use the ESS supercharger kit and upgrade to the 92mm pulley, do you think just an intercooler would be sufficient or would I also need to use meth/water injection in addition to the intercooler?
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post #9 of 22 Old 13th May 2019, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonutRanger View Post
If I were to use the ESS supercharger kit and upgrade to the 92mm pulley, do you think just an intercooler would be sufficient or would I also need to use meth/water injection in addition to the intercooler?
either/or is fine. Both would probably be overkill for your application.
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post #10 of 22 Old 13th May 2019, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonutRanger View Post
If I were to use the ESS supercharger kit and upgrade to the 92mm pulley, do you think just an intercooler would be sufficient or would I also need to use meth/water injection in addition to the intercooler?
I have a similar setup although I do have larger throttle bodies and exhaust headers (you can see my sig).

With stock boost (96mm) you are right on the edge of heat soak. For 1 or 2 pulls on the street, you are OK. But more than that, you will some a difference. 96mm yields about 6 to 6.5 psi.

With the 92mm pulley, I have about 8.5 psi. Boost does come on earlier. I used 80/20 meth/water. I changed the settings on the meth controller to have the meth/water kick in at 5 psi (stock is 3 psi). On a dyno, with a slipping clutch, (getting worse each run) I saw a minimum of 30 extra wheel horsepower on the last run of the day. I suspect the difference is more like 50-60 based on my tuner's observations and experience, but I haven't been back to the dyno since I replaced my clutch. If you use meth, you need to get someone who can tune for it. Otherwise it does nothing but richen the mixture (which is nice but that simply acts as a cooling agent). Quelling heat allows more timing to run; or more precisely, less timing to be taken out by the computer controls.

The advantage of an intercooler is it is pretty foolproof. Air to air gives less cooling, but much more reliable from run to run. Air to water does better, but then the water can heat up, changing its effectiveness. The one thing to consider with an intercooler is that is can rob 1-2 psi of boost, so you need to compensate. If you go that route, you may even want the 88 mm pulley, but make sure you have a really good tune.

Regards,
Jerry

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