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post #111 of 147 Old 7th February 2019, 01:17 PM
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I'm guessing the body in the white trashbag is another dead girl he ran over in his truck while at the beach in florida

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post #112 of 147 Old 8th February 2019, 12:32 PM
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This made it back to the front page and got my attention. Boy am I sorry it did, because this is like a train-wreck. You can feel free to disown me, but here's my 2 cents:

First, this guy has a legitimate complaint in my opinion - nowhere does Slim's page (even now, 6 months later) indicate that this product requires sanding, painting, or drilling. Notice the difference between his page and a couple places that come up when one searches for E39 lip.

We can all argue that he "should have known" that it required such preparation, but I'll just say flat out that that is crap. I've been around cars forever myself, and if you don't tell me I'm getting a raw product I assume it is finished - especially if your pictures look like such! Slim may be a great guy, but his website needs to be factual, and right now it leaves out a couple major points, namely the requirement to sand and paint this product, rather than the option to.

Second, calling for this guy to be banned or the thread to be locked is simply unacceptable, and frankly, you all should be ashamed of yourselves. If you don't like what he has to say then don't read it. But at least here in the US, where most of you are from, he darn well has the right to say it. But let's play this out and assume we do ban him. What did we accomplish except to reinforce his view that the way he approached this situation was appropriate? Did 2 parties ever reach a mutual understanding and conclusion to a conflict by NOT talking to each other? I'm sorry folks, but this is one of the biggest issues that we face in the world right now - an inability to listen to each other and have a constructive conversation without resorting to insults or simply re-stating a position over and over again - and this thread is a microcosm of exactly that. Honestly, I expect better from the members here and am embarrassed by how this guy got treated.

Lastly, OP - you own some of this as well. Your initial thread, while perhaps factual, didn't seek to confirm your position and understanding. I might suggest that in the future, you simply think about it this way when posting "What if I'm wrong?". For example, what if SlimBones is a 1 man shop? Should there still be a backup plan if someone gets sick? What if you just got a bad product, or the guy who's out is the QC guy? Would you still have written your post the same way? Sure, you should be irritated, but the question is what should the source of the irritation be? It seems that the general consensus here is that that piece requires sanding and painting. What if that's true and you just didn't know that ahead of time? I'd still be irritated with Slim, but I'd be equally irritated with myself for not knowing more about the product.

Sorry to drag this back to the top, but I couldn't in all good conscience just let this discussion go, not with everything going on in the world (at least US) these days.

Doug
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post #113 of 147 Old 8th February 2019, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by DouglasABaker View Post
This made it back to the front page and got my attention. Boy am I sorry it did, because this is like a train-wreck. You can feel free to disown me, but here's my 2 cents:

First, this guy has a legitimate complaint in my opinion - nowhere does Slim's page (even now, 6 months later) indicate that this product requires sanding, painting, or drilling. Notice the difference between his page and a couple places that come up when one searches for E39 lip.

We can all argue that he "should have known" that it required such preparation, but I'll just say flat out that that is crap. I've been around cars forever myself, and if you don't tell me I'm getting a raw product I assume it is finished - especially if your pictures look like such! Slim may be a great guy, but his website needs to be factual, and right now it leaves out a couple major points, namely the requirement to sand and paint this product, rather than the option to.

Second, calling for this guy to be banned or the thread to be locked is simply unacceptable, and frankly, you all should be ashamed of yourselves. If you don't like what he has to say then don't read it. But at least here in the US, where most of you are from, he darn well has the right to say it. But let's play this out and assume we do ban him. What did we accomplish except to reinforce his view that the way he approached this situation was appropriate? Did 2 parties ever reach a mutual understanding and conclusion to a conflict by NOT talking to each other? I'm sorry folks, but this is one of the biggest issues that we face in the world right now - an inability to listen to each other and have a constructive conversation without resorting to insults or simply re-stating a position over and over again - and this thread is a microcosm of exactly that. Honestly, I expect better from the members here and am embarrassed by how this guy got treated.

Lastly, OP - you own some of this as well. Your initial thread, while perhaps factual, didn't seek to confirm your position and understanding. I might suggest that in the future, you simply think about it this way when posting "What if I'm wrong?". For example, what if SlimBones is a 1 man shop? Should there still be a backup plan if someone gets sick? What if you just got a bad product, or the guy who's out is the QC guy? Would you still have written your post the same way? Sure, you should be irritated, but the question is what should the source of the irritation be? It seems that the general consensus here is that that piece requires sanding and painting. What if that's true and you just didn't know that ahead of time? I'd still be irritated with Slim, but I'd be equally irritated with myself for not knowing more about the product.

Sorry to drag this back to the top, but I couldn't in all good conscience just let this discussion go, not with everything going on in the world (at least US) these days.

Doug
I hereby disown you! LOL.

Seriously, OP absolutely had the right to post his opinion, informed or not, and I think most in this thread agreed that the lip was not Slim's best work. None of that had anything to do with why he was banned, but rather (i) his original title of the thread, (ii) his refusal to deal with the vendor at all before going public, (iii) the bias clearly affecting his opinion, (iv) his gratuitous rudeness, and (v) the corroboration of the OP's modus operandi from the fact he is banned for the same conduct on multiple fora.

--Peter
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post #114 of 147 Old 8th February 2019, 08:20 PM
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I still love you too, but I'd have to say that I don't agree with several of those reasons, which is probably why I'm not a Mod.
(i) That is still free speech. See my soapbox above
(ii) No one is required to contact a vendor before posting their experience, are they? And I think he even indicated he had contacted them but hadn't heard back. Not sure why that would be relevant to begin with
(iii) I've read this whole thread very closely. With all due respect, the only thing I see in his posts is a heavy dose of frustration at not getting what he wanted. I would observe that most of the bias in this thread was from existing members who were defending Slim (perhaps justifiably so, but without any actual facts since the OP was the only one who had the actual lip in his possession). I'm not saying we shouldn't stick up for friends, but I do believe there is a case here where the delivered product bears little resemblance to the ones on the website. There is a name for that too...

(iv) is hard to argue with, so I won't - but we own some of that as well
(v) I again fail to see the relevance. If that is the path we're going down, where we ban people because of things that happen elsewhere, then we might as well just shut the door now. But please let me out first.

I love the knowledge on this board, and I hope you all know that I consider many of you friends despite not having met any of you (except you, Diny (but he's gone) and a couple others) in person. I just find this thread to have been a disappointing decline in how this board used to operate when I first joined. But maybe I'm just a grumpy old man who longs for "the good ol' days"

I'm out on this thread having said my piece - I'll let you respond without any more replies from me if you are so inclined since I don't want this to turn into a secondary argument between us. I'm perfectly content to simply have different opinions if that is where we land

Doug
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post #115 of 147 Old 8th February 2019, 08:50 PM
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So did he get banned? If so, it clearly shows the good ole' boy network that is prevalent on this forum is in full effect.

The guy certainly could have presented a more elegant argument, but I bet the same folks who are all for banning him are the same types (read liberals) that constantly cry out for free speech. The same types who preach and demand tolerance but are the last to actually extend it.

Peter - you seem like a nice guy, met you years ago at Timmayfest. I think you are a lawyer? Then you should appreciate free speech. Regardless of whether you do or don't agree with someone, or for that matter the tone of their message, or for that matter their history, doesn't give you the right to request the ban. Sorry. You should know better.

I've seen members single-handedly ruin threads (rao comes to mind with his constant and annoying sarcasm) and never heard you ask for them to be banned . . . . I guarantee you if someone like rao or some other old guard member would have been the OP you would not have requested a ban - and probably wouldn't have even reprimanded them. And please don't argue "well they wouldn't argue in that manner" because that's crap.

This thread is a perfect example of why I no longer post, and why in general this board has headed downhill. I've not seen another internet forum where the "old guard" is so sensitive . . . .

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post #116 of 147 Old 9th February 2019, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
So did he get banned? If so, it clearly shows the good ole' boy network that is prevalent on this forum is in full effect.

The guy certainly could have presented a more elegant argument, but I bet the same folks who are all for banning him are the same types (read liberals) that constantly cry out for free speech. The same types who preach and demand tolerance but are the last to actually extend it.

Peter - you seem like a nice guy, met you years ago at Timmayfest. I think you are a lawyer? Then you should appreciate free speech. Regardless of whether you do or don't agree with someone, or for that matter the tone of their message, or for that matter their history, doesn't give you the right to request the ban. Sorry. You should know better.

I've seen members single-handedly ruin threads (rao comes to mind with his constant and annoying sarcasm) and never heard you ask for them to be banned . . . . I guarantee you if someone like rao or some other old guard member would have been the OP you would not have requested a ban - and probably wouldn't have even reprimanded them. And please don't argue "well they wouldn't argue in that manner" because that's crap.

This thread is a perfect example of why I no longer post, and why in general this board has headed downhill. I've not seen another internet forum where the "old guard" is so sensitive . . . .
Sorry you feel that way. I am all for free speech, and noone would accuse me of being a liberal. Free speech principles, however, protect the content of speech. They do not protect rudeness, and they protect the content of commercial speech such as this to a much lesser extent. Why? Because commercial speech frequently is fraught with bias and ulterior motive, as it clearly was here. OP was absolutely entitled to post about dissatisfaction with a product, regardless of the manufacturer. I and others, in turn, were entitled to take issue with the fact that he did so without first giving the vendor an opportunity to respond and make the matter right. We also were entitled to draw attention to the clear indicia of bias and ulterior motive in his posts. The fact that he was banned on other fora for precisely the same sort of shenanigans was merely corroboration. But the real straw was his offensive way of dealing with parties who expressed a different opinion. I don't apologize for the board requiring a modicum of civility. Apparently, the mods warned the OP, and he disregarded warnings. This board continues to be the single best source of information and discussion about the E39 M5 and the S62. Hope you will continue to hang here.

--Peter
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post #117 of 147 Old 9th February 2019, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
So did he get banned? If so, it clearly shows the good ole' boy network that is prevalent on this forum is in full effect.
Not really a reply to you but I wanted to quote something. The man got banned because he did not listen to the mods in all likelihood. He also got banned because it is likely his nature too. His track record is to get banned so I see no reason he would do something different here.
On that note your past is your past and it follows you. Would you hire an prospective employee who has a track record of stealing from their employer?
After he informed me that I was wrong about how you install this lip and then added an insult for good measure, I did a quick Duck search and had some interesting reading. Clearly this man behavior repeats time and time again. You would be a fool to ignore that or not count it as a factor.


Not sure why everyone is getting excited about calling for a ban, it does not mean any more than settle down. To be banned you need to break forum rules and seriously annoy the Admin, which likely means you need to really really annoy (substitute please) some mods first. A great example would be Paul, the infamous Paul who probably had 100s if not 1000s of user requests to have him banned. Yes he did get banned but not as a result of any of those requests.
When someone new jumps in and goes after someone else who you know to be reasonable and at disadvantage you should take a stand and defend that person, it is responsible and moral. When the attacker, then attacks you; you might just become overly defensive, because after all why are you being attacked. This is an escalation but it is the original attacker that caused it. At this point the defender is just along for the ride, it is human nature to defend ones self.


This free speech issue is not real. Free speech does not give you the right to inflict harm, even the American courts have been showing you this, I don't even live in your country and know this. It is very clear right from the get go this man intended harm, maybe some of you don't see that but it was clear to me from the start and after reading some of his posts after my search it was more than crystal clear that he does this frequently.


It is clear to me we got trolled and that is what trolls do turn each other on each other. His first comments to Peter were 100% troll comments. Lets not become troll food and drop this. Go to wiki and read about trolling and have some laughs, but we did get trolled and we should learn from it. The last thing we should be doing is debating if an internet troll has the right to come in and troll us because that is really all we are doing now.

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post #118 of 147 Old 9th February 2019, 11:42 PM
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This forum has lost all my respect. Terrible way to handle this whole situation, lead by moderators and fueled by long-time members.

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post #119 of 147 Old 10th February 2019, 12:16 AM
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Sorry you feel that way. I am all for free speech, and noone would accuse me of being a liberal. Free speech principles, however, protect the content of speech. They do not protect rudeness, and they protect the content of commercial speech such as this to a much lesser extent. Why? Because commercial speech frequently is fraught with bias and ulterior motive, as it clearly was here. OP was absolutely entitled to post about dissatisfaction with a product, regardless of the manufacturer. I and others, in turn, were entitled to take issue with the fact that he did so without first giving the vendor an opportunity to respond and make the matter right. We also were entitled to draw attention to the clear indicia of bias and ulterior motive in his posts. The fact that he was banned on other fora for precisely the same sort of shenanigans was merely corroboration. But the real straw was his offensive way of dealing with parties who expressed a different opinion. I don't apologize for the board requiring a modicum of civility. Apparently, the mods warned the OP, and he disregarded warnings. This board continues to be the single best source of information and discussion about the E39 M5 and the S62. Hope you will continue to hang here.

--Peter
The liberal comment is about the board in general, not you specifically. I was simply pointing out that those who cry for free speech are usually the last to actually extend it.

Free speech is free speech, regardless of tone - in other words rude free speech is just as protected as friendly free speech.

You did NOT address my primary point, which is your failure to address civility in your own friends on this board. Suppose rao had posted this - would you have reacted the same way? I think not.

I submit you didn't get upset because he was rude, you got upset because he was complaining about someone you know. (just fyi I have several slimmbones products on my car and love them)

kpeng is perhaps a troll, I don't know and don't care. But he's one guy calling out ONE vendor. Sure he could have handled it better. But rao can infect thousands of posts (and therefore potentially thousands of users) with a relentless barrage of annoying and useless sarcasm with nary a comment from you.

Which is less "civil"? One guy moaning about a single vendor in a single thread - or a guy that is like a virus on the board? (and please don't say you can block him, that's a totally asinine excuse for shitty behavior)

If you want to be an arbiter of civility you must apply your standard to everyone, not just newbies.

Sailor - I have ZERO problem with someone getting banned if they break forum rules. I have a problem with Peter requesting it just for kpeng but not for others that demonstrate what I consider far longer lasting anti-civility posts. I seem to vaguely recall you making a post about how less folks are participating in the board than used to - and you wonder why?

For the record, I don't see a single post that demonstrates "intent" to harm Slimm personally. I don't think he went after Slimm himself, just the product, which we ALL have a right to do if we receive a poor quality product. (again, he could have been far more elegant)

Last edited by [email protected]; 10th February 2019 at 12:47 AM.
post #120 of 147 Old 10th February 2019, 01:52 AM
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Last word on the matter: Rao is not a troll and never, in any post, used pejorative language with the intent to degrade--e.g., calling someone a "boy" in the pejorative sense--when disagreeing with someone. Yes, I agree, Rao's sarcasm could run away with him, and he was called out for it and warned many times. But you are correct that because we know that Rao was always trying to have fun and never intending to hurt, and provided tremendous constructive knowledge, assistance, and yes, criticism, I give him a pass. I can't speak for others. It's a pretty screwed up world if we are somehow prohibited from distinguishing between internet trolls and Rao when moderating the board. BTW, note that I am using the past tense because Rao doesn't post here anymore. THAT was a real loss for this board. Kpeng's banning--not so much.

--Peter
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