BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums banner

HELP: Style 65 - original, fake or refinished?

25K views 40 replies 10 participants last post by  130641 
#1 ·
Hi guys,

I really need the assistance of the experienced members here. I recently bought a full set of Style 65 off a seller on eBay (purportedly from Houston) on the full assurance that they were original rims, takeoffs from showroom that has been kept in pristine original condition. The guy had over 100% positive feedback (600+ feedback) and came across as really genuine. There were a few alarm bells that in hindsight I should have noticed but due to the strong desire for the wheels, I didn't. With multiple messages, he continually assured me they are original, not wheels that have been refinished. Enough for me to commit to buy the wheels, at what was a ridiculously high price.

Alarm bells started ringing louder when he said he had to send it from US to Australia via UK and got worse when I tracked the package and couldn't find any evidence it had left US, which got worse when I contacted him to request more information to clear customs. I'm an experienced Internet purchaser and have always done my research prior to purchase and so far haven't been conned.... until now. I knew showroom takeoffs for such old rims would be unlikely but the desperate soul in me wanted to believe as I wanted the wheels. :-(

Anyway, what I want to know is, could you guys tell me if you think there is a slight chance the wheels are in original condition, if they have been refinished or are they really good fakes? I want to get my story right, before I start the complaint process with eBay.

The printing on the back of the rims seem too "sharp", compared to the printing on the back of the rims no my car. I'm dreading that these are not even OEM rims that have been refinished, but are actually fakes.

Thanks so much.
 

Attachments

See less See more
10
#2 ·
I'm not a total wheel expert but those pictures look legit to me. Hump where the valve stem goes and "BMW" on the back. Damn those look nice too! The fade of the silver to black on the "drum" of the wheel looks normal too. Again, I'm not an expert but I have seen my share of OE wheels over the years. As for whether or not they've been refinished, it's tough to say for sure. That said, the back sides are rarely redone and where the wheel hub bolts down shows a little dirt, etc. like they have been mounted before, yet super clean as if they were take offs. There is no corrosion.

The real conundrum is why the wheels needed to go to the UK first. That seems asinine to me. With the sellers rating, it's surprising you are having an issue. What other items does he normally sell?
 
#3 ·
I see what you mean about the wheel on the back side. It looks like they were 12/1999 manufacture, allegedly, so perhaps something changed along the way? It's way too sharp, and the paint finish isn't delineated as I've seen on OEM wheels I've owned.

Here's a link to a post I did many years back showing the back side of a true OEM wheel. I have recently sold my M5, but I still have an extra rear OEM wheel that I just looked at, and it appears similar to the one shown in my post. I see no evidence of those radial machining marks shown in your pics on either of the wheels I had/have either. :dunno:

Regards,
Chuck
 
#4 ·
No expert on wheels but I have had a few of these cars go through my shop and there seems to be more than one manufacturer of the wheels. I have two sets of OEM wheels for my DD used as a winter set and summer set and they don't match perfectly. The depth of bore for the bolts is also just slightly different. The two sets are two years apart however.


There are some old and very old threads on this topic and complete search may prove that they are in fact OEM if the pictures are still in the posts.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Having just bought brand new set from dealer I thought I'd be able to tell you for sure, but I cant. Yours seem genuine but the back surface of mine is smooth and yours is not. But, as other have pointed out, there few manufacturers making the wheels all these years so mine might be different because of that. Here is my thread and I'll try to dig out few more pics;
https://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e.../594274-great-price-brand-new-oem-wheels.html
 

Attachments

#8 · (Edited)
I actually have a new set of 18x8 from ECSTuning, purchased earlier before I found out you can no longer get 18x9.5, before I chanced upon the auction on eBay. I will take photos of the new 18x8 and you can see the finish on the inside of the rims (the bit that would normally be hidden by the tire) has an even black paint rather than the harsh transition of chrome/black on the wheels I purchased off eBay. Which has lead me to suspect these are not above board. I'm half tempted to get a tyre shop to take the tyre off the wheels currently on my car (which is date stamped early '99) and compare the "inside" of the rim. Both my new 18x8 and currently set on my car also do not have the "radial" pattern on the surface that mounts onto the hub.
 
#6 ·
OP, since you can't receive PM is your seller by any chance "cyruline" because you said he's from Houston and 600+ 100% feedback.

If so, please read this because he's lying piece of s***.

My story:

He bought the original wheels of my M5 and then about a week later he claimed he only received 3 wheels. I thought something was fishy but I've also looked at his 600+ rating and I worked with him by filing a claim with the carrier and told him I'd forward the money to him. But no, he basically wanted about 1/2 of the total sale price even though he was supposedly missing only one wheel. When I refused to get extorted, the case went to PayPal and Paypal decided for me to give him money back after he sends me 3 wheels back.
After he never send the wheels back, Paypal gave me my money back (it was on hold at the meantime) and he apparently got pissed because his scam didn't work and he went ahead and left negative feedback.
Before him I've had 100% buyer satisfaction record and comments about me on ebay speak for themselves. How does that POS has 100% feedback is beyond me. I suspect that ebay hides some negative feedbacks because he does a lot of businesses.
Only later on I looked close at his profile and he refinishes and sells wheels and I though he was just a enthusiast.
I hope I'm wrong in your case but if this is the guy, I'd be vary.
If you need to contact me of the forum, I'll do my best to help you as a potential witness with paypal if it comes to that because I'm convinced the guy is a crook.
 
#7 ·
OP, since you can't receive PM is your seller by any chance "cyruline" because you said he's from Houston and 600+ 100% feedback.

If so, please read this because he's lying piece of s***.
Yes, sadly it is the one and the same guy. I did so much research, 15 years of buying on eBay does that to you and some of the things he said didn't sound right but I dismiss it partly because of such a desire for a perfect set of wheels. The benefit of hindsight is always a good thing.....

I'm sure to get in touch with you if I progress things. Thanks for offering.
 
#11 ·
Is you're concern really that they're fake/replica or that they're refinished? Did you get a good price? I wouldn't want fake/replica at all so I got you there. If they're nicely and well refinished, based on price, I might be okay with it even if the seller is a lying POS. I think I would anyway.

If the concern is fake/replica, could you weigh them? I'd think they'd be heavier.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sailor24
#12 ·
I paid a very high premium, I was prepared to do that for unmolested OEM rims. I certainly will find fake/replicas for that price totally unacceptable. I also find refinished unacceptable for the price I paid and shipping halfway around the world, I could have sourced it locally and arranged for them to be refinished.

When someone reassures me they are not refinished, when I specifically asked 2-3 times, I expect it to not be refinished. Comparing the printing and radial pattern on the back hub of the wheel of these eBay ones vs my original on my car, they are vastly different. Comparing them to my new 18x8 recently bought, again, different, this time in the transition of chrome/black on the inside of the rim (the channel).

I'm looking for someone on the board with experience of refinished wheels to advise me what are the telltale signs I need to look for.

Yes, I plan to weigh them. Sadly I can't weigh the 18x9.5 as I don't have spares, the only ones I have are on the vehicle and have tyres on them and probably 2kg of brake dust. :grin
 
#13 · (Edited)
I know I weighed mine and I have it somewhere but at the meantime I found that this website is very accurate:
Felgen-Katalog - BMW-Treff - der Treffpunkt für alle BMW-Fans und -Fahrer
10.71 kg front, 11.60 kg rear.
I may be biased because I already dealt with that POS seller but OP has every right to expect exactly what he was promised.
Sadly, when I was dealing with PayPal in connection with my case, I've provided all messages where buyer (seller in this case) was first asking $250 and then $350 refund on account "supposedly" one missing wheel out of four. And the total price he paid for all four wheels was $600 shipped. That was clear case of extortion but paypal was stubbornly on his side.
Again, I truly hope everything turns out as it should for the OP but I hate crooks and I'm smelling one here.
 
#22 · (Edited)
I know I weighed mine and I have it somewhere but at the meantime I found that this website is very accurate:
Felgen-Katalog - BMW-Treff - der Treffpunkt für alle BMW-Fans und -Fahrer
10.71 kg front, 11.60 kg rear.
I hate to say it, but I have never seen the back of a real style 65 appear as in the deuteros' pictures.deuteros, I still have an OE style 65 rear wheel here with no tire on it, so let me know if you want more pictures of it and/or the weight.
I weighed both the eBay 18x8 and ECSTuning 18x8 on an old analog bathroom scales and both came up as approximately 10.5kg which is consistent / close enough with @BWM's quoted weight. I didn't weigh the eBay 18x9.5 as I didn't have one for comparison but now I have some numbers, I'll have to go and weigh them.
@CSBM5, what do you mean by "I have never seen the back of a real Style 65 appear as in my photos"?

Phil
 
#16 · (Edited)
I hate to say it, but I have never seen the back of a real style 65 appear as in the deuteros' pictures. A while back I had as many as 11 style 65 wheels at one time for many years.

Note how on the OE wheel three out of the five marking locations on the back are double row versus the deuteros' pictures of single row -- i.e. the wheel size spec location, the offset spec location and the third one. That anomaly coupled with the machine tooling marks and the way the black paint on the rear is applied into the recesses where it isn't on real wheel, all lead me to believe these are replica wheels.

Here's a pic, from that post I linked above, that I took of a real wheel years ago.




deuteros, I still have an OE style 65 rear wheel here with no tire on it, so let me know if you want more pictures of it and/or the weight.

Regards,
Chuck
 
#36 · (Edited)
Note how on the OE wheel three out of the five marking locations on the back are double row versus the deuteros' pictures of single row -- i.e. the wheel size spec location, the offset spec location and the third one. That anomaly coupled with the machine tooling marks and the way the black paint on the rear is applied into the recesses where it isn't on real wheel, all lead me to believe these are replica wheels.


Regards,
Chuck
I think you will find that the wheels with the double row of characters are from 9.5j wheels and the single row are 8j wheels ... so you are comparing rears with fronts. This is based on the spare set I've shown in my pictures which appears to confirms it.

I've also shown a copy wheel in my photos and you can see it looks nothing like the OEM ones from the rear.

IMHO Deuteros has a set of OEM wheels as they tie in to what I see on my own old set.
 
#19 ·
Here are some photos of both my original and currently in used wheels and the new 18x8 I recently purchased from ECS Tuning.

Note the consistency of the paint on the inside of the rim and the back of the rim. Notice the etchings on the back of the rim are not "sharp" and distinct. Less so on the '99 wheel. Interestingly the '99 wheel has single row etching, consistent with the eBay rims I got, and different from what @CSBM5 has seen on the later year wheels and visible in my ECSTuning rim.
 

Attachments

#20 ·
Now these are the photos comparing the eBay rims with my ECSTuning 18x8 as a control rim. Note the colour consistency in the transition from chrome to black on the inside of the rim of the ECSTuning rim compared to the eBay rims. The ECSTuning 18x8 rim is on the right in all comparison photos.

The distinct sharpness of the text etchings on the back of the rim and the radial pattern (refer the "eBay rim 2" photos) of the eBay rims is at odds with the remainder genuine rims I have both new and old.

The question is, are you guys able to decipher from the photos if the wheels are replicas or original wheels that have been refinished? I'm hoping one of you eagled eye members can spot something I can't.
 

Attachments

#28 ·
Two of my wheels feel rough on the back, can't say they are the same as yours and I would like to help you but I am not pulling a wheel off to look. It is sort of moot because what we say is meaningless. Paypal is not going to accept but the guys on the forum said they could be fake and one guy even said the seller was a crook. If you even add that in your submission you will lose.


The only word Paypal will accept and the only word you should accept is that of an authorized shop. You may have some appraisers who specialize in BMW type cars or you may have to go to a dealer, other than that you are likely getting nowhere. I realize you are just getting an idea now, but you will have to go that route at some point, I would say sooner is better than later.
 
#29 ·
I'm quickly finding that you're very helpful on this forum.
My experience with the seller (buyer in my case) was definitely bad but as you said, Paypal could care less unless concrete proof is presented.
I've presented messages in my case where buyer was insulting and was caught in conflicting statements but Payapal still didn't care because it was sort of hearsay.
I wish OP all the luck but you're right: He needs the absolute proof and then present it to Paypal.
 
#31 · (Edited)
The wheels in the first post are 100% fake/non-original wheels. Both the markings on the back of the wheel are too sharp/different engraving/font, and also the finish itself have a whole lot more "orange peel" to it than factory wheels should have. In addition, grooves on the back of the wheels point to the fact that the wheels were machined, and this is not correct for factory wheels.

Did you weigh them? How much do these weigh? Its easy to compare the weight of the stock OEM with fake rims. Fake will be either lighter or heavier. Never the same.

Sorry, but I would file a claim with Paypal/eBay, and have your money refunded to you. This is fake items and both eBay and Paypal have policy against that.
You don't have to prove anything, its called "item not as described" and if buyer doesn't like it for no other reason as it doesn't look like what was expected, they will be on your side.
 
#32 ·
Cheers @TexaZ3. The reason why I'm here is to hope that other members like yourself are able to either say definitively, or, provide photos of their spare wheels which show paint that's consistent (or inconsistent) with the set I have. I strongly believe the biggest giveaway of repainted/refnished wheels or fake wheels is the harsh transition from chrome to black on the inside surface of the wheel.

Funnily enough, I was only able to weight the 18x8 and they came up fairly close to the weight of an original wheel. My scales are not sufficiently accurate to give me an exact weight but ball park is within 200g.
 
#35 · (Edited)
A couple things to note... the Postcode on the dispatch docket is in Blackpool and if you use Google street view you can find a house which has what looks like a pretty recent white M3 parked up outside. So the possibility is that the guy in Houston is selling on behalf of a UK person who happened to have a spare set of wheels from a previous car?

Anyway that's pure speculation....

Hopefully these pictures will help :

4 of these wheels are OEM and the 5th is a copy.

One of the OEM wheels looks as though it has been refurbished based on the date stamp and the lack of clarity on the pressings. Actually I don't think it is a refurb ... as the Name printed next to the date stamp is Hayes Lemmerz who according to Google made OEM wheels - so I'm guessing it was a replacement wheel ... As the 4 OEM wheels all came with my first E39 M5.

Also mine DO have the radial tooling marks on the rear, is it possible that wheels for the UK were made at a different OEM manufacturer to those destined for the US?

From what I'm seeing they look just like the ones I took off my 2001 car, if they cropped up over here in the UK there is nothing that would worry me if I was buying them. There was more than one manufacturer of the wheels IIRC and colour matches could never be guaranteed as each batch was pretty much unique hence why you are struggling with matching the fading of black/chrome on the inside.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/9ohsyMMw2YjspuML6
 
#37 ·
Thank you so much for those photos. It's interesting that your wheels also have the "sharper" stampings and the radial machining pattern. Your speculation that they are different because of the of the OEM manufacturer is possible.

As far as you're aware, are your wheels in original condition and have never been repainted/refinished?

Can you confirm if the recessed notches in the holes between the lug holes (apologies if I can't explain it well) are painted black or are they black from road grime and brake dust.

It would appear however, the inner surface of the rim is a consistent black colour, with the one exception which you believe might have been repainted. In that particular wheel, there is a harsher transition from chrome to black.

Would you say that the wheels I purchased are originals but have been repainted when compared to your wheels?
 
#38 ·
A few more photos taken with an SLR after closer scrutiny of the wheels. Are factory wheels likely to have paint overruns like I have in the photos? I certainly see no evidence of it on the 18x8 genuine wheels I got off ECS Tuning.
 

Attachments

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top