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post #1 of 51 Old 6th October 2017, 04:33 PM Thread Starter
nosferau666
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Supercharged M5 tuning troubles

Guys, we're in a process of tuning my supercharged M5 but we have an unknown issue - sometimes (irregularly) the car running rich after 6000 RPM. AFR just drops suddenly from 11s to 9s. We did runs in 3th and 4th gear, with meth injection ON and OFF, also with two different AFR sensors. Tuning guy revised the tune so many times but still he can't find an issue. I already believe something from the hardware could cause this. Here it is the setup.

ESS kit with 92mm pulley, custom tune, Bosch Green Giants 42lbs injectors, SS mufflers, SS x-pipe, Magnaflow cats, stock headers, RK Autowerks plenum plates, RK Autowerks carbon fiber plenum cover, Aquamist HFS-3 meth injection, achieving strong 8-8.5 psi of boost. All new:
- O2s
- CPS
- TPS
- Fuel pump Aeromotive 340 lph
- Fuel filter
- No codes after diagnostics

And this is the dyno graph:
- the black line shows AFR
- the upper red one shows power
- the lower red one shows boost



We tried almost everything but now every idea is gone so if you have something in your mind please share.

Last edited by nosferau666; 6th October 2017 at 04:57 PM.
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post #2 of 51 Old 7th October 2017, 04:48 PM Thread Starter
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Wondering if it's not a software issue is it possible the Aeromotive pump could affect the factory fuel regulator and that leads to AFR drop? I've never replaced the regulator, should I give a try?

Last edited by nosferau666; 7th October 2017 at 04:49 PM.
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post #3 of 51 Old 7th October 2017, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nosferau666 View Post
Wondering if it's not a software issue is it possible the Aeromotive pump could affect the factory fuel regulator and that leads to AFR drop? I've never replaced the regulator, should I give a try?
That is a crazy graph, no doubt. The problem with the stock ECU is you never really know what's happening or if some unknown table is kicking in.

I'm not sure how a hardware issue could cause this set of conditions repeatably, but replacing the regulator is cheap and easy so it's worth a try. Also check to ensure the vacuum reference line to the regulator is hooked up, both at the regulator and at the engine.

Do you have a graph of the timing throughout the pull? Would be good to see if the ECU is pulling timing, which might indicate a knock sensor going off.

Good luck. Dealing with these issues with the stock ECU can be infuriating.

--Peter
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post #4 of 51 Old 9th October 2017, 01:01 AM
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can you map the actual cam position vs rpm and correlate it to the AFR graph?

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post #5 of 51 Old 10th October 2017, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nosferau666 View Post
Guys, we're in a process of tuning my supercharged M5 but we have an unknown issue - sometimes (irregularly) the car running rich after 6000 RPM. AFR just drops suddenly from 11s to 9s. We did runs in 3th and 4th gear, with meth injection ON and OFF, also with two different AFR sensors. Tuning guy revised the tune so many times but still he can't find an issue. I already believe something from the hardware could cause this. Here it is the setup.

ESS kit with 92mm pulley, custom tune, Bosch Green Giants 42lbs injectors, SS mufflers, SS x-pipe, Magnaflow cats, stock headers, RK Autowerks plenum plates, RK Autowerks carbon fiber plenum cover, Aquamist HFS-3 meth injection, achieving strong 8-8.5 psi of boost. All new:
- O2s
- CPS
- TPS
- Fuel pump Aeromotive 340 lph
- Fuel filter
- No codes after diagnostics

And this is the dyno graph:
- the black line shows AFR
- the upper red one shows power
- the lower red one shows boost



We tried almost everything but now every idea is gone so if you have something in your mind please share.
I am having a little trouble reading the graph. Is the black line for AFR the one that starts way in the upper left hand corner? It then comes down, spikes UP then spikes DOWN. Is that your AFR line?

Ignore O2, they are off line during WOT.

I assume you replaced CPS with new style, known vendor. The fact that is intermittent seems to rule out mechanical issue. Those things either work or don't work.

If the fuel pump correctly seated? Is it possible it is not and therefore shifting around?

Are you tuning meth for power or cooling? If the latter, then hitting the meth should richen up your AFR's a bit over running without meth. Any difference in readings?

Finally, when I did my tune a couple of years ago, the tuner said the prior tuner had used a very old BMW base program from the original tune. The old tuner simply tuned on top of that. So while it was OK, it was not smooth or consistent. So my new tuner wiped that out completely, it was over 10 years old. Then he proceeded to put in the latest BMW tune and the his tweaks on top of that. And he tuned the meth for power. Tune was done live on a dyno, which is my preference. The new tune is lights out!!! So you may want to ask your tuner what he is using for the base BMW program.

BTW, I think 11's are a bit on the rich side. You should be shooting for low to mid 12's.

Regards,
Jerry

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Dinan Stage 3 suspension, SS jet coated headers, ESS SC kit w/ 1 range colder NGK's, 92mm pulley, 440 Big Greens, TTFS alpha N tune for meth, RK plenum plates, SBC Endurance Stage 3 Kevlar performance clutch setup, "Jed" lightened DMFW, open brake ducts, TEC cupholder, U.S.(Euro style) tilt/slide armrest, 6k HID fogs, Umnitza bi-xenon flamethrowers w/6k super white low beams, rear fogs, V1/Stealth1, dual head LI, 2.65 diff w/40% lockup/2x dynamic, compact spare, M5 logo trunk carpet, Euro trailer hitch, Mocal oil cooler, ACS type rear spoiler, Rogue custom SSK and tranny mounts, ST 355 BBK (fronts), BP sway bar brackets, Bluetooth retrofit, Speedhut boost gauge (20 psi), Dinan TB's and VS, KB BAP, Howerton/HFS-3 Aquamist WI trunk setup (50/50), with 2nd gauge in rear view mirror, aftermarket trunk mounted sound system integrated into stock unit (amps, crossovers, sub and speakers).......

Last edited by gsfent; 10th October 2017 at 12:58 AM.
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post #6 of 51 Old 10th October 2017, 06:37 PM
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1. Who is tuning your car?
2. It could be the dyno, I had similar experience

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post #7 of 51 Old 10th October 2017, 07:02 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herrubermensch View Post
That is a crazy graph, no doubt. The problem with the stock ECU is you never really know what's happening or if some unknown table is kicking in.

I'm not sure how a hardware issue could cause this set of conditions repeatably, but replacing the regulator is cheap and easy so it's worth a try. Also check to ensure the vacuum reference line to the regulator is hooked up, both at the regulator and at the engine.

Do you have a graph of the timing throughout the pull? Would be good to see if the ECU is pulling timing, which might indicate a knock sensor going off.

Good luck. Dealing with these issues with the stock ECU can be infuriating.

--Peter
I will do my best to get a graph with timing too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferris View Post
can you map the actual cam position vs rpm and correlate it to the AFR graph?
Yes, it possible. Will do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsfent View Post
I am having a little trouble reading the graph. Is the black line for AFR the one that starts way in the upper left hand corner? It then comes down, spikes UP then spikes DOWN. Is that your AFR line?

Ignore O2, they are off line during WOT.

I assume you replaced CPS with new style, known vendor. The fact that is intermittent seems to rule out mechanical issue. Those things either work or don't work.

If the fuel pump correctly seated? Is it possible it is not and therefore shifting around?

Are you tuning meth for power or cooling? If the latter, then hitting the meth should richen up your AFR's a bit over running without meth. Any difference in readings?

Finally, when I did my tune a couple of years ago, the tuner said the prior tuner had used a very old BMW base program from the original tune. The old tuner simply tuned on top of that. So while it was OK, it was not smooth or consistent. So my new tuner wiped that out completely, it was over 10 years old. Then he proceeded to put in the latest BMW tune and the his tweaks on top of that. And he tuned the meth for power. Tune was done live on a dyno, which is my preference. The new tune is lights out!!! So you may want to ask your tuner what he is using for the base BMW program.

BTW, I think 11's are a bit on the rich side. You should be shooting for low to mid 12's.

Regards,
Jerry
That's right. The black line shows the AFR.

CPS were replaced with OEM.

Fuel pump sits in the factory bracket so I'm sure it's fixed well.

We're using meth just for cooling and safety. The problem occurs with meth ON and OFF, no difference.

AFR is still around 11s for safety reasons at least until we catch what causes the drop after 6000 rpm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent View Post
1. Who is tuning your car?
2. It could be the dyno, I had similar experience
The tuner is a local guy here in Bulgaria.

The problem occurs both - on the road and the dyno. On the road I just can feel power loss when the AFR drop hits.

Thank you guys for all guidelines. I will follow your advices and get back to you with results. Meanwhile if anyone has a tested tune for mine or similar setup (at least these injectors) so I can check if it's a software issue would be awesome (not for free of course).

Alex

Last edited by nosferau666; 10th October 2017 at 08:53 PM.
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post #8 of 51 Old 10th October 2017, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herrubermensch View Post
I'm not sure how a hardware issue could cause this set of conditions repeatably, but replacing the regulator is cheap and easy so it's worth a try. Also check to ensure the vacuum reference line to the regulator is hooked up, both at the regulator and at the engine.
I'm more curious as to why there's a spike and then a dip. I wonder if the stock FPR is functioning properly. How much boost can the stock FPR handle and still work correctly?
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post #9 of 51 Old 10th October 2017, 09:39 PM
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Have you tested the Vanos?

If the car ran fine before SC then itís the tune or the tuner.

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post #10 of 51 Old 10th October 2017, 11:00 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent View Post
Have you tested the Vanos?

If the car ran fine before SC then it’s the tune or the tuner.
Yes, we've done vanos test before SC and worked fine. But Will do it again...

I have a dyno graph before the SC with one bad CPS, but after replacing I haven't dynoed again. I noticed two of three runs the car has had too low power peak in the RPMs (6300 instead of 6600). Is it possible the bad CPS caused that effect?


Last edited by nosferau666; 10th October 2017 at 11:05 PM.
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