Codes suggestions: Knock bank 1, lambda bank 2? - Page 2 - BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums
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post #11 of 36 Old 24th June 2017, 04:56 PM
xrviz
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The other thing that is way odd is that your precat O2 voltages are not fluctuating. They should flip every few seconds from low to high. Yours are sitting at 0.45. Like it's running in open loop. Which it shoudn't be at 79 C.
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post #12 of 36 Old 24th June 2017, 11:07 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the suggestions so far everyone - just been under the car, fixed a few things and went for a test drive, the report:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
That is really strange then, the engine is always doing some trim adjustment, even minor. It's like your O2 sensors aren't doing anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrviz View Post
The other thing that is way odd is that your precat O2 voltages are not fluctuating. They should flip every few seconds from low to high. Yours are sitting at 0.45. Like it's running in open loop. Which it shoudn't be at 79 C.
I checked, the bank 1 sensors were connected... to each other. Just as Sailor24 said - I'm not sure we can get much from the readings prior to this post.

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Originally Posted by Sailor24 View Post
Screeners of INPA don't really tell me much because they all look the same healthy unhealthy the trims usually show perfect. I did notice a couple of odd numbers first is your voltage. The second is the MAF reading bottom left of Analog 1 Total HLM. I have little faith in INPA because the scale for that is claimed KG/HR and the bar goes to 100. I have compared that number to my scanner I am pretty sure that is calc load as a percentage. Our cars use way more air than that even at idle. Just off the top of my head I think we use more than 700 kg/h at WOT, what good would a scale of 100 be? Actually I think it is way more than even 700 but don't remember and to lazy to do the math.

Anyway the point I am getting to is that number appears high it should be 18 -20 at idle. How old are your MAFs and have you done a road test for them? What were your results?
MAFs are about a couple of years old now, but this thing has barely turned a wheel in the last year because of all the fun I've had with the crappy shop I asked to diagnose a coolant leak with the motor. I'll attempt to do a MAF test at some point.

I checked the fuel pressure regulator vacuum line - it seems connected OK at both ends.

The result of reconnecting the bank 1 lambda sensors is the car definitely runs worse, at a constant throttle, (under ~2k RPM) it surges. It's not so noticeable above that.

Got some new codes and analog values, interestingly I get lambda regulation codes for both banks now, and the car still thinks the lambda sensor on bank 1 is bad - I wonder if it's been killed by the bad fueling caused by it being disconnected for the couple of hundred miles I've done when testing.

First up, codes (I reset these before the test drive):



Analog values:


Video of analog values - note how bank one seems to report OK then drops to zero @ 55 seconds?
+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


Other observations, bank 1 smells really rich.

Last edited by putty_thing; 24th June 2017 at 11:29 PM.
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post #13 of 36 Old 25th June 2017, 01:31 AM
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That is significant. So bank 1 were wrong, plugged together? Was the first set of screeners with them plugged wrong? That would explain some of what we see. Unplug your MAFs and see if there is a difference. But one bank rich the other lean very strange will need to think on this one. Exac tly what work did these clowns do?
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post #14 of 36 Old 25th June 2017, 01:34 AM
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It does seem to report as if it's cold. The lack of fuel trim adjustment is just odd to me with MAFs plugged in.

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post #15 of 36 Old 25th June 2017, 05:01 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor24 View Post
That is significant. So bank 1 were wrong, plugged together? Was the first set of screeners with them plugged wrong? That would explain some of what we see. Unplug your MAFs and see if there is a difference. But one bank rich the other lean very strange will need to think on this one. Exac tly what work did these clowns do?
That's correct - the first set of screenshots and video is with the lambda sensors connected incorrectly.

The shop installed a second hand motor, including putting a new timing chain on the new motor. All the intake components were moved from the old to the new - unfortunately the scope here is massive. It's worth noting that the old motor ran great apart from a coolant leak internally, so the components should be fundamentally good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
It does seem to report as if it's cold. The lack of fuel trim adjustment is just odd to me with MAFs plugged in.
I'm pretty confused about it - I don't think I've ever had the car run this badly after any of my previous rebuild attempts :P


I'll try running with the MAFs disconnected - any thoughts about the lambda voltage dropping to zero on bank 1? Could that be a dead sensor?
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post #16 of 36 Old 25th June 2017, 12:40 PM
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Your O2 sensor wires could also be swapped left-right. That could explain why one bank is at positive lambda integrator limit and the other at negative lambda integrator limit, they are being corrected in the wrong direction if the O2 connections are swapped from one side to the other. This has been found on a few vehicles after transmission / engine out type jobs.
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post #17 of 36 Old 25th June 2017, 01:02 PM Thread Starter
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Just ran without the MAFs - no noticeable improvement.

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Your O2 sensor wires could also be swapped left-right. That could explain why one bank is at positive lambda integrator limit and the other at negative lambda integrator limit, they are being corrected in the wrong direction if the O2 connections are swapped from one side to the other. This has been found on a few vehicles after transmission / engine out type jobs.
Thanks, this is an interesting idea! I'm trying to remember what the wiring looks like from the last time I put the motor back in - is there a definitive way to tell which side goes where?

edit: I'm thinking the lengths are different, right? So makes it pretty obvious which side goes where.

Last edited by putty_thing; 25th June 2017 at 01:57 PM.
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post #18 of 36 Old 25th June 2017, 02:53 PM
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I have looked through WDS and can't find any wire colours on the diagrams for the 4 oxygen sensors which is a shame as that could have made life easier. The cables (black sleeved) come down the firewall and then two of them cross over the transmission cross-member in metal clips. They are then held against the floor by the heatshield parts and plastic under trays (from memory).

If they are wrong then they are wrong in pairs as the pre and post cat values do follow each other for each bank.

I'm 90% sure the lambda integrator values in INPA represent short term fuel trims and a value over 1.00 is increasing fuel from the base value and under 1.00 is reducing fuel. I have watched your video several times and it does look like the changes to the lambda regulator on bank one have greatest affect on the sensors that the DME thinks are bank 2 and vice-versa. I can't think of any other fault that could cause such an effect.

Edit: It was assumed the lengths wouldn't allow this error but it has occurred on at least one other vehicle on this board. It took a long time to diagnose because it didn't look possible. I've tried to find the thread to take a look at the screenshots posted there but haven't found it yet!

Last edited by THE39M5; 25th June 2017 at 02:57 PM.
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post #19 of 36 Old 25th June 2017, 03:25 PM Thread Starter
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I've routed this wiring successfully before so will jump under the car later today and see if it looks correct. Thanks for the suggestion.

Also am picking up a spare sensor for testing incase the sensors are actually right.

Last edited by putty_thing; 25th June 2017 at 03:25 PM.
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post #20 of 36 Old 25th June 2017, 07:15 PM
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Sorry, should have thought of this earlier. You say that the bank 1 sensors were wired to each other, was the connection you corrected under the right hand side of the car (UK driver's side). That would confirm that the connections were the ones the DME considers to be bank 1 and therefore they aren't swapped from one side to the other. If it was the left hand pair that were wired together then they are in the wrong place.
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