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Checking oil, back to basics?

4K views 25 replies 12 participants last post by  Nybes 
#1 · (Edited)
Since there have been numerous posts on subject of oil consumption with the M5, I have been more diligent than previously to check my oil. To date, I had seen very little consumption during the break-in period and was anticipating similar results now that I had the German recommended 10W-60 oil installed.
Monday on the way to work I stopped at the local gas station before getting on the autobahn for a fillup. After topping off the tank I decided to check the oil again (last time I had checked it was Friday morning before my attempts to find top speed). Imagine my surprise when the dipstick showed I was down approximately ½ a liter. Couldn’t believe it, so I checked again. Maybe I had screwed up the procedure. So, one more time with precision. Yep still down a ½ liter. Standing there looking at the engine, I attempted to reconstruct past usage that could account for this change. The only thing that had been different was the high speed run last week. However, if the only logical conclusion considered for my oil consumption was resultant of one 15-kilometer pass at high speeds/rpms on the autobahn; I had problems
I departed the station with intentions to stop at the local BMW dealer for the promised top-off now that the oil level was low. Halfway there I realized it was Easter Monday, a European holiday and that nobody would be at the dealer. On to work and thoughts of plan B.
Lunch time and back to plan B, I went out to my car and checked the oil level again. Magic, the oil level is right back where it had been before this morning. Now what? Checked it again and same results. Thought about it again and came up with two other possible explanations.
First possible explanation…the length of time for oil to return to the sump may be longer than some engines and 10W-60 spec oil could be aggravating this duration over lightweight oil. Looking at the plastic tag on the dipstick there is a note that indicates owner should wait a minimum of one minuet after engine is shut off. Not as obvious, it states engine should be at idle for at lease 15 seconds, suspect this substantiates first assumption about drain down time, idle speed would reduce flow to the upper half of engine and enhance drain down.
Back to experience at gas station earlier in day. Don’t know if I idled 15-seconds but was not racing engine either. For certain it took longer than one minuet to add gas so still don’t know if my first assumption is that valid.
Second possible explaination. operating range of engine. Again looking at plastic tag on dipstick it seems to imply that oil check should be done at operating temperatures but not specific. Owner’s manual does clarify this assumption. Back to gas station experience one more time. I had driven less than 10 kilometers from home to the gas station. The last orange ‘pre-warning lights’ had disappeared, the water temp was in the blue range but the oil temp gage was still south of normal range. Maybe a temperature sensitive value in the cooling system opened while I was adding gas and some oil went into the cooler before I checked and/or a combination of both explainations.
It has been a week of checks since this incident and I haven’t been able to duplicate it. Maybe some of you can elaborate or substantiate, but my point to all of this ramblings is this. Appears that something that should be simple i.e. checking your oil level, is not as simple as you thought. I still think a cold pre-start check is most accurate but would not add oil until I followed the owner’s manual. That said however, it appears that the preferred method could be subject to flaws.
Ken
 
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#2 ·
Hi Ken,

I don´t know, but the oil in the engine is every where and can show different readings at different times. My suggestion is that u check the oil 10 min after engine shut down every time!! Then u should have an accurate reading every time.


Best Regards
Matte
 
#3 ·
from what i remember you are supposed to have a warm engine, shut it down wait 1 minute than check the oil level. That is what the instructions are on the dipstick.
 
#4 ·
Thanks for the reply from M'nd shown below
you are supposed to have a warm engine, shut it down wait 1 minute than check the oil level.
However, my whole point is even if you follow those simple instructions as printed on the dipstip you may have problems. Apparently my engine's definition of warm and that printed in the manual were two different things when the false low oil reading happen. If a person didn't double check, as I outlined, you could overfill the system.
 
#5 ·
A bit off topic, but am I the only one with eyes going bad, or do others have a problem reading the dipstick? That rust color of the plastic tip makes it hard to see the level with clean oil. It takes me multiple times to make a correct reading, and I carry white napkins in the car for background, but changing the color of the plastic would be a big help.
 
#7 ·
apt333
As MIB likes to fun me about age, yes one would think you have bad eyes when checking the oil with CLEAN oil. hiha

However if you were to follow the oil service cycle BMW wants you to use, the oil will become very black before the red light comes on and even us old men can see the level.:thumbsup:
Ken
 
#8 ·
kwalls - your experience, to some extent, was mirrored in my post of yesterday. I checked and double checked my oil level and process - 1 quart low. My first check was after the car had been off for a couple of days - all oil had to be drained into the sump. Oil was at the bottom line on the dipstick - same reading after two checks with a little warm up - idle 15 seconds and waited for 1 minute to check????? Of interest, I added about a third of a quart and checked the dipstick reading - up about a third of the way above the bottom line - pretty linear relationship. So I am still at a loss with four possible issues: overfill theory, oil filler cap not replaced correctly, design issue involving the tube the our Master Tech explained to me, or some oil system gremlin that I will never understand. What I do know is that I could not have been more cautious in following the process and double checking. I actually wound up doing BOTH a cold and warm engine check! A lot of doubt will be present at my next check!!! This is an important and routine check - it SHOULD be straightforward, but....! Oh well..:byebye:
 
#9 · (Edited)
kwalls said:
oil check should be done at operating temperatures but not specific. Owner’s manual does clarify this assumption.

This is an excellent question, Ken, and one that I hope someone can definitively answer for us. I had assumed that this meant that the oil is supposed to be checked with the OIL TEMP having reached normal operating temperatures, then idling for 15 seconds, and waiting at least one minute, and this is what I have been doing. It still seems a little strange to check engine oil on a hot engine, something contrary to what I have always thought, but I suppose it has something to do with the special G-sensitive pump system?


Originally posted by apt333
am I the only one with eyes going bad, or do others have a problem reading the dipstick? That rust color of the plastic tip makes it hard to see the level with clean oil.

It is indeed a challenge. I use lint free tissues to completely wipe the stick clean and assure that it is completely dry, then re-insert and withdraw as instructed in the manual. To obtain an accurate reading I find that I have to hold it up to a light source to look for the contrast between the dry part of the stick and where the oil level is.


:cheers:
 
#10 ·
kwalls,
could this possibly have something to do with the scavenging pumps that function durin high lateral-G loading? A hard highway (or bahn) off-ramp just prior to shut down?
anyone have any ideas?
N.
 
#11 ·
Ken

Good to be talking again - hope all is well with you.

I got in the habit of always checking my oil in the same place - my garage after I get home from work. Back into the garage, idle for 15 seconds, shut down, wait a minute, and then check with the dipstick.

That way, it's always fully warm, and its level. I have also checked it cold in the morning before starting out, and I get identical readings, so either method works, as far as I can tell. Personally, I've used the "cold" method since the early seventies, and it's never let me down.

Oil checking is a bit redundant with the M5 - there are those out there that just drive it until the "low oil" message comes up on the dash readout. I figure that if I keep checking, at least I won't get a surprise, but if I mess up on reading the dipstick, there is a failsafe there to protect the machinery.

My 03 is now running the Castrol 10w-60 and in the 1100km since the change, it has consumed exactly none. I'm impressed!

Cheers
JJ
 
#12 ·
JJ
Good to hear from you again. Yes, I too was using the same spot and same method ie garage and cold reading for the majority of my checks. So, it was really a surprise to get a reading other than the norm and then the follow-on changes which led me to post 'the rest of the story'.

Didn't realize that ownership of a M5 would require one to adopt a procedure and then rigidly follow it since my experience seems to indicate you are subject to surprises if you don't.:confused2
Ken
 
#13 ·
Kwalls,
I think the idea of checking the oil level after the engine has run for 15 seconds and then waiting one minute has to do with filling up the filter, crank, passsges, pumps, etc. This allows the engine to have oil in all of those places and still allows for it to drain back from the heads and valley section of the engine.

I once read that a small block Chevy has approximately two quarts out of its 5 quart capacity trapped in the heads, valley, and draining back at high speeds.

In regards to oil consumption at high speeds, you have to remember that the closed crankcase system (smog: positive crankcase ventilation) can sometimes allow oil to be forced out of the vents and into the inlet sdie of the engine. This is more common when an engine has crankcase pressure (blowby) greater (at high speeds) than the vent allows. In addition, the higher speeds allow more oil splash from the rod clearance onto the cylinder walls and this oil gets by the oil rings and scraper ring due to low tension rings, ring wear, clearance, etc. Anytime you run an engine at high speeds and loads, you will experience a greater oil consumption.

A good way of judging where the right level on the dipstick when the crankcase is full, is to check it right after you change it. Do it without starting the engine and see where it is before it fills up the filter and engine, then do the 15 second and wait 1 minute check, and lastly wait till it drains back completely after several hours.

John
 
#14 ·
John ref your previous post
In regards to oil consumption at high speeds, you have to remember that the closed crankcase system (smog: positive crankcase ventilation) can sometimes allow oil to be forced out of the vents and into the inlet sdie of the engine. This is more common when an engine has crankcase pressure (blowby) greater (at high speeds) than the vent allows.
While I am aware that high speeds can contribute to higher oil consumption my concern was that an engine which wasn't using any would consume 1/2 ltr in 15 kilometers of speeds the car was designed to run all day if necessary. If that was a true indication of consumption I would be stopping for oil more frequently that gas. I frequently drive prolonged distances at speeds much higher than in the US. While I won't drive my 5 at the rev-limiter zone, I am comfortable with 130 to 140 mph when the left lane is clear now that break-in is complete. After all, that is the purpose of such a car.
Ken :byee55amg
 
#15 ·
jaj:

Are you using 5w-60 Castrol because you want to OR did someone recommend it??

As YOU know ...

The BMW M5 Owners Manual states very clearly (p. 117) that the APPROVED oil is in the SAE classes of 5W-40 and 5W-30 ... and they recommend BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil which is made by Castrol for BMW.

Quite obviously, the selection of the correct SAE class depends on the climate conditions in the area of where your M5 is going to be primarily drivin'.

I triple checked with 3 different service writers at the dealership where I purchased my M5 ... as well as the Service manager and 2 of the Veteran M-Techs at the that dealership.

They ALL agree that SAE 5W-30 (NOT 5W-40) BMW High Performance Synthetic OIL is the best oil for the M5 in the Los Angeles area where I live.

They said ... The M5 motor WILL ... on an average, use about ONE (1) quart of oil per 1000 miles of driving.

I double checked that fact (the oil usage fact, cuz I never heard of that one before), with the BMW Tech REP who makes a regular bi-monthly visit to the dealership to deal with warranty issues and any BMW questions or problems.

That TECH REP from BMWNA also told me that I should drive my M5 Aggressively ... He said ... "The motor will like it better!"

BUT ... in the end ... everyone must do what they feel comfortable with and IF YOU want to use 5W-60 oil ... and that is what makes you feel comfortable .... THAN You should do so.

Just make sure that YOU enjoy the heck out of your M5.
 
#16 ·
Check Oil Level Warning

A related question-
New M5, picked up Thursday, now has 1265 miles on it as I picked up in Oregon, took to Seattle and back to SF.

At 1150 miles, Check Oil Level warning comes up. On checking, oil level looks 80% of the way down from the top indent, 20% above the bottom. Right at the number 1 if I remember correctly.

I was surprised it warned me so 'early' - or is this the right level for the warning? What have others experienced.

Also, is the BMW 5-30 castrol the same as synthetic 5w-30 castrol at an auto parts store?

Josh
 
#17 ·
My check oil warning came on only when the oil level was dead on the bottom notch. I had been watching the oil level fall for a couple weeks so this wasn't a nasty surprise. I was, however, surprised that the level got as low as it did before the warning came on. I was actually pulling into the service bay at my dealer when the warning finally came on.
pw
 
#18 ·
jdh
Can't say with certain about the low oil warning light since it is something I have never experienced in a BMW. While, it appears to have come on earlier than outlined in the owner's manual that is what I would prefer rather than late when the level is so low a component isn't getting oil.
Ref your question
Also, is the BMW 5-30 castrol the same as synthetic 5w-30 castrol at an auto parts store?
In theory yes but you need to check beyond just the viscosity rating to see that anything bought at the auto parts store meets the other requirements listed in the manual for compression engines. It could be that the auto store has 'older' castrol in stock that isn't formulated for the M5 and it could still be 5w-30.
Even some of the newer synthetics don't meet the European specs listed for the M5.
Ken:hihi:
 
#19 ·
pwilliams said:
My check oil warning came on only when the oil level was dead on the bottom notch. I had been watching the oil level fall for a couple weeks so this wasn't a nasty surprise. I was, however, surprised that the level got as low as it did before the warning came on. I was actually pulling into the service bay at my dealer when the warning finally came on.
pw


Wow, I am surprised that your '03 is burning oil when it appears most folks have not seen any significant oil consumption of late. What weight oil are you running?
 
#21 ·
Hey guys - sorry I've been off the air for a day or two!

Gra8ful

My (new) dealer drained the factory fill oil and filled the crankcase with TWS10w-60 at the 2000km service. There are four dealers in Vancouver, and they seem to be split evenly about which oil to use. I have copies of the BMW service bulletins on oil (there are two) and one says either is fine for M5's after 03/00, and the other "recommends" 5w-30 oil from BMW. The higher viscosity reduces oil consumption, and increases fuel consumption. Either oil will work, although North America seems to be the only market where BMW recommends anything other than 10w-60, as far as I can tell.

jdh, pwilliams

When I picked up my previous car, a used 01 with 3100km on it, the warning for "add oil" appeared on the drive home from my(previous) dealer. The oil level was at the "add" mark on the dipstick.

jdh

As far as I can determine, the BMW High Performance Synthetic motor oil 5w-30 is actually an "Original Equipment" product made by Valvoline and packaged by BMWNA. Some people have said that they believe that it comes from Mobil, and it's quite possible they are correct, and I'm not.

As for what you find at your auto parts store, virtually NONE of the over-the-counter 5w-30 products in North America (Castrol included) meet the standards required for the M5. You're looking for ACEA A3 and BMW Longlife '98 or '01 qualifications. You can find them in other viscosities - 15w-50 or 5w-40, or even 0w-40, but not in 5w-30 as recommended in the owners manual. Personally, I just go with the dealer's guidance, and get my oil there - if there's ever a problem there's nothing to argue about.

Cheers
JJ
 
#23 ·
oil consumption, type

re: oil type -- thanks all for advice, will probably stick to the bmw oil, as price is really not that different and the wrong place to try to save $1.

re: consumption, (schnelleM5)

I was a little surprised, too -- it does seem like most people don't burn oil in the 03 engines. As to what type is in there -- who knows? whatever it came from the dealer with. I've topped up with a bit of BMW 5-30 but it's only going to be driven a few miles to the 1200mi service, hopefully can talk them into a free oil change as it's in the warranty book though I understand people have had mixed results on this front.

As for the break-in -- did it all in three days of driving for many hours. Stuck to the guidelines but definitely had some fun, and was not shy about revving up to the 5500 rpm limit, and giving it 1/2 or 3/4 throttle, as well as driving up to 6 hrs at a time -- might this cause me different break-in consumption than someone who babied it more?

What do y'all think -- should I be concerned at 1200 miles with a little oil consumption? Should I ask them to check anything at the 1200mi inspection?
 
#24 ·
schnelleM5 said:
Wow, I am surprised that your '03 is burning oil when it appears most folks have not seen any significant oil consumption of late. What weight oil are you running?
5w30, just like it says on the engine compartment and on the little rearview mirror hanger reminder given to me at delivery. There has been some discussion of this in other threads -- I know mine isn't the only thirsty '03 beastie. Funny thing was, no oil was consumed in the first 1200, but I lost a quart by 1550, put more in at 1900, and so on -- the intervals are climbing from that initial low of 350 miles, but I have yet to go 1000 without adding. And I swear on Bangle's pointy little head I did not start hammering the car after the break-in -- the plan is to take it kinda easy for the first 5000 miles, then hammer it mmmmmm
pw
 
#25 · (Edited)
jdh

A lot's been written on the topic of oil consumption already, but to summarize, the S62 engines do consume oil. The most important long-term factor seems to be how they're broken in - if you carefully follow the recommendations they seem to consume less than if you don't. It certainly sounds like you did it right!

That said, my understanding from one of the dealers here in town that recommends the lighter 5w-30 oil is that your consumption won't drop until after 10,000 miles or so. If you use 10w-60 it seems to dry up somewhat sooner, as mine did.

I certainly take some comfort in the fact that the '03's are the "pinnacle" of the S62 production cycle - they've been in production long enough that the kinks are worked out and solid reliable engines come off the line one after another. If they use oil, it's because that's the way they're made, and it's not a defect.

As for getting a change at 1200 miles - it's really not listed in the service schedule that BMWNA publishes, so if the dealer does it it's because they are being proactive. You have the option of paying them to do it, and I know that if my dealer hadn't done it on their own, I'd have asked for it anyway.

Cheers
JJ
 
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