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E34 M5 Discussion 1988-1995 Sedan and Touring

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post #51 of 240 Old 22nd August 2013, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ficelle View Post
Hi raymond,
As you seem to know a lot about oil:
what do you think about Motul 300V 15W50 ???
I do use it in my E24 /// M6 for more than 12 years now ( change oil every year / more or less 5000 km/year ) and it doesn't eat even a cl of oil.

Can I use it on a S38 B38 with same utilisation, or better Mobil 1 10W60 ? ( BMW mainteance book says 15W50 )
thanks in advance for your return..


The lubrication requirements for the M88/3 were written in a time when there was some awareness of fuel-efficiency and emission reduction, but as there were no standards mechanical engineers could draft the lubrication requirements according to their own needs. These requirements were primarily aimed at optimizing a cars performance whilst sufficiently protecting its engine. Even when technology has progressed in the last thirty years, newer doesn’t necessarily mean that it is an improvement for all cases, especially since the automotive-and lubrication industries have to meet environmental requirements first.

We know that safety comes first…… well the same thing applies for environment. Its environment first and then the rest.

Now, if we enter the time machine and go back to the 1970’s and early 1980’s era, the latest AI standard was SF and availability of multigrade oils was mostly limited to SAE10W, SAE 15W and SAE20W base-grades. The manual addendum for the E28 M5 only approves an 15W40 that is compliant to API SF/CC/CD standard. Nowadays such oils are mostly available in your local hardware shop as a low budget brand, but if you take a closer look into the SAE requirements for SAE40 grade, we can see that there specific sub-groups exist for SAE10W and below and SAE15W and above.

The main difference is the requirement for the High Tension and High Shear value (HTHS). HTHS is the measured dynamic viscosity at a predefined high load and high temperature (150°C). Even when the market sees a 0W40 and 5W40 as high-tech products (because of their manufacturing processes and complex polymer additives to obtain the temperature stability), the minimum requirement for HTHS is 3,5cp for 0W40, 5W40 and 10W40 oils whilst this is 3,7cp for a 15W40 oil.

This contradiction; low-tech versus higher HTHS is confusing as most people would imply that the higher-grade 5W40 and 0W40 would offer a higher level of protection. Nothing comes further from the truth.

Now let’s be strict: since 10W40, 5W40 and 0W40 oils were already defined in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s and to some extent were also available, why would BMW not have approved those grades ?

The specific requirement for an SAE15W40 and for the S38 up to 20W50 as well is clear. With the only difference being the minimum value for HTHS, one might safely assume that HTHS for the M88/3 and S38 engines should be more then 3,7cp !!!

Many owners have used a ‘high tech’ 5W30 oil for their S38 powered cars. With a minimum HTHS requirement of 2,9cp for this grade, one can safely assume that the integrity of the oil film is not maintained under a high engine-load/speed.

Since Motul’s Competition 300V 15W50 grades from Motul as a HTHS rating of 5,33cp, there is no concern for using this oil in an S38 / M88 application.

One remaining issue of concern is the content of the anti-wear additive ZDDP that is normally specified by the content of its main elements zinc and phosphor. These elements protect the engine in area’s were boundary-mode lubrication occurs. When this occurs, metal to metal contact will occur. The area of concern in general in the cam-lobe interface.

ZDDP is detrimental to the longevity and functionality of the catalytic converter, hence why the automotive industry was forced to lower its content gradually in the last 10-15 years. For modern engines such as the M54/S54/S85 this is not an issue as they rely on roller cam-guides to avoid boundary-mode lubrication.

It doesn’t necessarily mean that our S38/M88/S14 engine require the ample amount of ZDDP as for instance the classic US V8 engines with solid rocker/lifter constructions, but todays trend to lower the ZDDP to levels below 800ppm for phosphor and therefore also zinc imposes a serious risk to older engines as well.

The reason why I have made the switch to Mobil1 EL 10W60 (at least for the non-catalyst M88/3) is the ample specification of 1300ppm on phosphor. This is more than plenty for an S38/M88, so a bit less is acceptable and for the catalyst S38/S14 even preferable. But manufacturers generally do not specify for ZDDP. Mobil1 does that for 15W50, but Motul does NOT for the competition 300V 15W50 and LeMans 300V 20W60.
With all those oils being available and with so many opinions around, I needed an objective model to normalize the performance of specific lubrication product against the simple 15W40 grade that is prescribed in the M88/3’s manual addendum. Don’t ask me to disclose details about the algorithms and calculations as this has been the result of many months of work.

Lubrication performance
Mobil1 15W50: 126,0567
Motul Competition 300V 15W50: 124,3206

Normalized against the referenced 15W40 (100), both lubricants have more-or less the same performance. From this perspective, the switch from Mobil1 15W50 to Motul Competition 15W50 is IMHO arbitrary.

Protection performance
Mobil1 15W50: 102,0167
Motul Competition 300V 15W50: 104,143 (provisial)

Also the protection performance appears to be small, but please note that Motul does not specify the content of ZDDP in its datasheet’s whereas Mobil1 does. I have recently requested the same information for their 15W50 product and am awaiting an answer. However, until I know the exact details, I can only assume that the actual ZDDP content is low. Now, if hypothetically speaking, Motul Competition 300V 15W50 has the same level of ZDDP as its 20W60 sibling, it would perform 118,2504 against the 15W40 reference and that is significantly more than the competing 15W50 product from Mobil1.

The main contributor to that high performance is its ester base. However, bear in mind that Group V base-oils despite having excellent performance that at some points exceed those of group IV PAO’s by almost any account, also has some disadvantages; (1) swelling influence on gaskets and seals, (2) susceptibility to water and (3) high cost. These facts are the main reason why group V’s are only used in specific (racing) applications or mixed with group IV PAO’s to compensate for amongst others the seal-shrink effect of group IV PAO’s.

The exact formulation of a product is covered behind the curtains of Non-Disclosure Agreements and/or trade-secrets, but the sole reason to choose for a specific manufacturer because of using Ester technology is not good enough for me without a matching specification. Let me just say this, a high content of ZDDP is more important to me than using ester-technology.

Raymond

==> MY90 E34 M5 3.6 <==
==> MY85 E28 M5 M88/3 <==

The E34 M5 Alps tour. Sixth edition: 14-17 September 2007

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post #52 of 240 Old 23rd August 2013, 09:43 AM
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Waouhhhh...

Thanks VERY much for that exposure.
So if i resume: 300V is good enough for the lubrication but as we don't have the proof (yet ) not enough good for the protection. but 300V 20W60 is ? Am I right ??

On my M88 as I don't have catalysor I should switch
And on my S38 as i have a catalysor if I switch it is good for the engine but "risky" for the catalysor

And raymond did you tried the 300V 20W60 ?
again thanks very much for this very interesting explanation !

Do you think It could be intersting to do an analysis of my M88 oil ( as it is the 300V 15W50 ) to compare level of P and Zn ???

E24 M635CSI 1985
E34 ///M5 touring evo 1995
E46 ///M3 convertible 2005


from M88 to S54: only ///M straight six !

Last edited by Ficelle; 23rd August 2013 at 10:37 AM. Reason: last question
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post #53 of 240 Old 23rd August 2013, 11:23 AM
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Raymond - very many thanks for taking the time to share your analysis. To summarise and check I understand I'd be grateful for your views on my conclusions as follows in respect of my cars:
- S38B38 E34 M5. Catalyst points to using something other than Mobil EL 10w60. I am currently using Motul 15w50 so await the ADDP results (if they ever come) with interest. I will do another used oil analysis once my mileage is high enough so I can post the results and that will help us all draw conclusions.
- S14 E30 M3 Evo2. Importantly the Evo2 has no cat, so based on this thread I may switch to Mobil EL 10w60. Currently Motul 15w50 and previously, I'm sorry to say, Castrol 10w60 before this thread taught me better.
- S50 Z3 M Coupe. One page ago you speak positvely about Mobil EL10w60 for S50 applications, but in the most recent post a concern about the cats is implied. I know the valve mechanism is different in the S50 to the S54 (where you recommend Castrol 10w60) so I would love to know your thoughts on the s50. Presumably an oil with more ZDDP than Castrol but less than Motul might be what to look for ?
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post #54 of 240 Old 23rd August 2013, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ficelle View Post
So if i resume: 300V is good enough for the lubrication but as we don't have the proof (yet ) not enough good for the protection. but 300V 20W60 is ? Am I right ??
Correct

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ficelle View Post
Let me just say this. 300V 20W60 has been confirmed for having sufficient ZDDP for S14/S38/M88 applications.
Correct

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ficelle View Post
On my M88 as I don't have catalysor I should switch
Mobil1 15W50 more than meets the requirements so there is no need to change, BUT that is always a personal choice. Oil-discussions always result into heated debates. But if Motul 300V 15W50 is confirmed for having enough ZDDP, I would prefer it over its 20W60 sibling for all applications with the exception of endurance racing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ficelle View Post
And on my S38 as i have a catalysor if I switch it is good for the engine but "risky" for the catalysor
High amounts of ZDDP is detrimental for the catalytic converter on the long-term…… So yes, Mobil1 EL 10W60 is not the first choice for S38, however, we have asked ourselves the question what is more important to ourselves. The catalytic converter or the engine ? As long as we can still buy used S38B38 cats (also fit S38B36) in the 150-300 Euro region, why bother ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ficelle View Post
And raymond did you tried the 300V 20W60 ?
No, for two simple reasons; first, its HTHS is high and whilst this is good for protection, there is something as too much as a high HTHS also results into high dynamic shearing losses and thus a reduction of power. Second, its base-grade is 20W meaning it is relatively thick at cold temperatures. Now, this may not be of concern in the south of France when ambient are always high, but there are regions were the ambient temperatures can be low even in the summer, high altitudes in the Alps or late in the driving seasons (September-November) in my hemisphere (Netherlands), hence why I prefer a 10W60 oil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ficelle View Post
Do you think It could be intersting to do an analysis of my M88 oil ( as it is the 300V 15W50 ) to compare level of P and Zn ???
Yes, but this is then only to confirm the content of these two main elements; but bear in mind that ZDDP actually is Zn[S2P(OR)2]2 or zincdialkyldithiophosphate. A UOA does not confirm how much of the Zn and P are still active as ZDDP, but it does tell the initial content.

Having said that. Low ZDDP oils, wear out on their ZDDP earlier and even when the remaining TBN still is high enough, active ZDDP can be used up ! However, that is only of concern for cars that operate their cam’s in boundary-mode lubrications and I can always exchange TWS every 2k-3k km…… It’s a choice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH View Post
- S38B38 E34 M5. Catalyst points to using something other than Mobil EL 10w60. I am currently using Motul 15w50 so await the ZDDP results (if they ever come) with interest. I will do another used oil analysis once my mileage is high enough so I can post the results and that will help us all draw conclusions.
Thank you, that is always very helpful as I use UOA to confirm manufacturers claims. If the UOA confirms the datasheet specification, the circle is complete, but if it doesn’t action is needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH View Post
- S14 E30 M3 Evo2. Importantly the Evo2 has no cat, so based on this thread I may switch to Mobil EL 10w60. Currently Motul 15w50 and previously, I'm sorry to say, Castrol 10w60 before this thread taught me better.
Agreed. But, back in 2000, TWS was specified for having a Ph content of 1000ppm (typical). This is sufficient for the S38. Now, as from 2004, Castrol lowered the Zn and Ph-content of TWS gradually to meet the requirements for new cars. At the same time, TWS was removed from the BMW special oil list (which was discontinued in February 2004).

We all continued using TWS for S38 applications because of its excellent performance, and I also was not aware…. In fact, I only started researching in the summer of 2012……

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH View Post
- S50 Z3 M Coupe. One page ago you speak positvely about Mobil EL10w60 for S50 applications, but in the most recent post a concern about the cats is implied. I know the valve mechanism is different in the S50 to the S54 (where you recommend Castrol 10w60) so I would love to know your thoughts on the s50. Presumably an oil with more ZDDP than Castrol but less than Motul might be what to look for ?
Actual choice on 10W60 oils is thin…. S50 has solid buckets that are operated directly by the cams. I would stay away from low-ZDDP oils regardless of brands. Yes, there is a controversy between catalyst and engine……. However the cost for a top-end rebuild (new cams etc) is much higher than those for some new cats that can also be bough S/H

Now, in all honesty, I also have doubts of using Mobil1 EL 10W60 in an S38…. But we are running one such car (GD55450) and will monitor its emissions once every year during the annual Dutch MOT. Its owner has observed and can describe the benefits from changing from TWS to EL 10W60…… catalyst longevity is not really our concern, but if it is….. why not use Motul 15W50. There is a reason why I asked Motul for its ZDDP specification.

Raymond

==> MY90 E34 M5 3.6 <==
==> MY85 E28 M5 M88/3 <==

The E34 M5 Alps tour. Sixth edition: 14-17 September 2007
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post #55 of 240 Old 24th August 2013, 08:59 AM
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Hi Raymond ,
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge !!!!
I' m gonna send 2 samples of 300v 15w50 At blackstone lab:
50 ml of brand new oil ( then we' ll have the P &Zn answer )
50ml from my M88
:-)

E24 M635CSI 1985
E34 ///M5 touring evo 1995
E46 ///M3 convertible 2005


from M88 to S54: only ///M straight six !
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post #56 of 240 Old 25th August 2013, 03:27 AM
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info about Castrol...

1) All new BMW's require synthetic. As far as weight, only certain production dates of M3's and M5's require the use of Castrol TWS 10w-60.

2) The Factory BMW Synth 5w-30 is a version of Castrol TXT Softect sold overseas. A few important things about the BMW oil a) it is a Group III hydrocracked oil which cannot be called synthetic in Europe, b) it is a heavy 30 weight (30 weight can run from [email protected], the BMW oil is about 12.2cst), c) it is a ACEA A3 oil which means that it is approved for longer change intervals and has a HTHS (High Tempurature High Shear) measured at 150c of greater than 3.5.

3) In the US, the only Group IV PAO Synthetics that are available are 1) Mobil 1, 2) Amsoil (but not the Xl-7500), 3) Royal Purple, and 4) German Castrol 0w-30 (it has the red label and says on the back, "Made in Germany). Redline is a Group V PolyEster based oil. All other Castrol, Quaker State, Pennzoil, Valvoline "synthetics" are a Group III hydrocracked oil. It is debated how much better Group IV base oils are than group III, but generally they are considered better.

4) When looking for oil for any BMW that does not require Castrol TWS 10w-60, you want to purchase an oil that has either/both of the following ratings, a) ACEA A3, or b) BMW LL-98 or LL-01.

5) Note that Mobil 1 0w-30, 5w-30, and 10w-30 are NOT ACEA A3 or BMW LL approved oils. This is because they all are thin 30 weight oils (approximately 9.8-10 [email protected] 100c) and have HTHS of approximately 3.1. Mobil 1 0w-40 and 15w-50 are A3 rated and the Ow-40 is BMW LL-01 approved. For 99% of climates and users 0w-40 or 5w-40 is the appropriate grade. There are some 0w-30 and 5w-30 oils (like the BMW 5w-30) that are forumlated on the heavier end of the 30 weight scale and are accordingly rated A3. These oils will work well also. LOOK FOR THAT ACEA A3 rating. If the oil doesn't have it, pass on it.

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post #57 of 240 Old 25th August 2013, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton.P. View Post
info about Castrol...

1) All new BMW's require synthetic. As far as weight, only certain production dates of M3's and M5's require the use of Castrol TWS 10w-60.

2) The Factory BMW Synth 5w-30 is a version of Castrol TXT Softect sold overseas. A few important things about the BMW oil a) it is a Group III hydrocracked oil which cannot be called synthetic in Europe, b) it is a heavy 30 weight (30 weight can run from [email protected], the BMW oil is about 12.2cst), c) it is a ACEA A3 oil which means that it is approved for longer change intervals and has a HTHS (High Tempurature High Shear) measured at 150c of greater than 3.5.

3) In the US, the only Group IV PAO Synthetics that are available are 1) Mobil 1, 2) Amsoil (but not the Xl-7500), 3) Royal Purple, and 4) German Castrol 0w-30 (it has the red label and says on the back, "Made in Germany). Redline is a Group V PolyEster based oil. All other Castrol, Quaker State, Pennzoil, Valvoline "synthetics" are a Group III hydrocracked oil. It is debated how much better Group IV base oils are than group III, but generally they are considered better.

4) When looking for oil for any BMW that does not require Castrol TWS 10w-60, you want to purchase an oil that has either/both of the following ratings, a) ACEA A3, or b) BMW LL-98 or LL-01.

5) Note that Mobil 1 0w-30, 5w-30, and 10w-30 are NOT ACEA A3 or BMW LL approved oils. This is because they all are thin 30 weight oils (approximately 9.8-10 [email protected] 100c) and have HTHS of approximately 3.1. Mobil 1 0w-40 and 15w-50 are A3 rated and the Ow-40 is BMW LL-01 approved. For 99% of climates and users 0w-40 or 5w-40 is the appropriate grade. There are some 0w-30 and 5w-30 oils (like the BMW 5w-30) that are forumlated on the heavier end of the 30 weight scale and are accordingly rated A3. These oils will work well also. LOOK FOR THAT ACEA A3 rating. If the oil doesn't have it, pass on it.

In October 2001, BMW AG issued a service bulletin (SI110898) that generally describes the use of long-life engine oils. Although aimed at models that (at the time) were in series production, it also discusses the advantages of synthetic motor-oils for cars that were manufactured before 1998. Already well before that time, a small fraction of E34 M5 owners ignored the manufacturers directive to use a high performance mineral oil in favor of a fully synthetic motor oil. Although documented cases are rare, one owner specifically claimed that the S38 would benefit from using synthetics:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrM5
“People use synthetic oil for a variety of reasons; protection during long drain intervals, cold starting characteristics, resistance to thermal breakdown, etc. I change my oil far too frequently to worry about the first, and my local climate minimizes the second consideration during all but a few months out of the year. For me synthetic oil's ability to actually protect my motor while under load at sustained oil temperatures is crucial.”
This opinion resulted in one of the first of many so-called ‘oil-wars’ on automotive enthusiast forums, however unlike most of these discussions this opinion is based on a study of BMW service bulletins that existed in 1998 just prior to the release of service bulletin SI110898 that specifically recommends using synthetic motor-oils for all BMW engines that were manufactured prior to 1998. However, there is no distinction between the type and origin of the engine due to which the requirements for the older BMW Motorsport engines are open to interpretation of the reader of the document that actually may read between the lines that any 5W30 oil may be used (refer to the quoted phrase from SI110898 at the start of this chapter). Given the fact that many dealers and service agents have their own ‘preferred supplier’ for lubricants, chances are that specific factory approvals are missed in favor of the SAE-requirements that generally are lower than factory requirements, e.g. the BMW LL01 or the VAG 50x.0x standards. If these are not specifically met, engine-damage might occur for highly-stressed parts.

A good example is the piston rod bearing of an S50B32 engine coming from a 1997 E36 M3/4 that is shown in attached picture. Despite the frequent by the book-servicing, the first and second layers are completely worn-out after 200000km, indicating metal-to metal contact between bearing and crankshaft.

This kind of damage can only occur following a break-down of the viscosity under extreme pressure and thus is typical for low-viscosity engine oils such as 5W30 that according to the requirements of an SAE30-grade oil only requires 2,9cp for HTHS. Its successor, the S54B32 suffered from bearing damage in its early years forcing BMW to recall affected cars. Both designs share the same basic elements with the S54B32 simply adding improved performance, economy and a redesigned valve-train to allow the use of engine oil with a reduced amount of ZDDP.

The stress-determining factors; (1) conrod length (139,0mm) and (2) stroke (91,0mm) are identical for both engines die to which the instantaneous piston-speed is identical up until the redline of the S50B32 at 7600RPM (23,1m/sec). Due to its slightly higher redline of 8000RPM, the S54B32 can achieve up to 24,2m/sec, a difference that is marginal and cannot be the root-cause of the bearing-failures describes in SI B11 04 04 on its own. Based on these figures, one might argue that at least the S50B32 would benefit from using a high viscosity/high film-strength engine oil such as Castrol TWS Motorsport because of the following facts:

• The discrepancy in HTHS; 3,6cp @150°C [2] for the BMW labeled 5W30 versus the 5,7cp for Castrol TWS Motorsport in 2000.
• The discrepancy in the kinematic viscosity at operating temperatures; 11,9cst @100°C for the BMW labeled 5W30 versus 22,7cst for Castrol TWS Motorsport in 2000 .

This and the ZDDP-addition is enough argumentation from me to ignore the Service Bulletin SI110898 from October 2001 that must be the basis of your four bullits. Furthermore, I have factual proof of BK01499 camshafts that have been run on BMW LL in adherance to SI110898 that show catastrophic bearing-wear.

Now, please note the title of this thread "oil-thread with lab-analyst". Since your contribution to this thread (1) divert away from its purpose, (2) is confusing and (3) is triggering general oil discussions, I refer to the more general synthetic vs semi-synthetic oil discussion.
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Raymond

==> MY90 E34 M5 3.6 <==
==> MY85 E28 M5 M88/3 <==

The E34 M5 Alps tour. Sixth edition: 14-17 September 2007

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post #58 of 240 Old 23rd September 2013, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ficelle View Post
Hi Raymond ,
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge !!!!
I' m gonna send 2 samples of 300v 15w50 At blackstone lab:
50 ml of brand new oil ( then we' ll have the P &Zn answer )
50ml from my M88
:-)
I have received the requested information about ZDDP from Motul for their Competition 300V 15W50.

Phosphorous: 1020ppm
Zinc: 1110ppm.

With this information, this product rises from tenth position to fifth position on my shortlist; one rank below the companies Le Mans 300V 20W60 and two ranks below Mobil1 Extended Life 10W60.

For catalyst application and cars that see prolongued period of inactivity, Motul Competition 15W50 is hard to beat.

Raymond

==> MY90 E34 M5 3.6 <==
==> MY85 E28 M5 M88/3 <==

The E34 M5 Alps tour. Sixth edition: 14-17 September 2007
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post #59 of 240 Old 24th September 2013, 09:12 AM
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Raymond. Many thanks for your ongoing research. Do you have any means of finding the same information for another Motul oil - 6100 Synergie 15w50 Technosynthese. That has been recommended to me in the past. If you were willing to provide details of how you got the info via PM, I will gladly chase it myself.

Thanks in advance.
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post #60 of 240 Old 24th September 2013, 10:01 AM
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Hi raymond,
thanks very much for your implication on this subject!

Quote:
Originally Posted by raymondw View Post
For catalyst application and cars that see prolongued period of inactivity, Motul Competition 15W50 is hard to beat.
that is typically my ///M635 "life"... I only do more or less 4000km a year.
have it since 2000, bought it at that time at 92000km and she has now 140000 km... so she 'll stay with 300V 15W50.
the ///M5T will go with mobil 1 EL 10W60 !

E24 M635CSI 1985
E34 ///M5 touring evo 1995
E46 ///M3 convertible 2005


from M88 to S54: only ///M straight six !
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Oil question. No it's not another oil thread...... essex boy E39 M5 and E52 Z8 Discussion 4 11th September 2009 11:32 PM
Dinan E39 M5 SC got to 700 HP in the lab NJ M5 E39 M5 and E52 Z8 Discussion 16 31st March 2003 01:43 PM

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