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sorry about that



Hy my frend from ROMANIA/Bucharest.Sorry for my english!!

I look at the topic , .I have a fiat 500 ,1.4. petrol with the same problem, she starts always second time after the car stay of about 9-12 hours, like at video ..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmI23OmwFf0&feature=youtu.be
I change,fuel pump (integrate fuel presure regulator,check valve), map sensor,crank sensor,coolant sensor,sparks, injectors,purge valve, test another trotle body.
Fuel presure with ingnition on is 3,5 bar, put a new pipe from pump to fuel rail,but the same think do.'
No error at dtc.
I unistall the carbon canister ,easy breath at all hole.

After she miss the first start, second start is ok, and the rest of day start ok.
At first start i kepp more the key, and crank but not starts.

I do a test , i help to start first time with startind fluid and starts,not so fast but slightly starts.
Any ideea what to chek please?
 

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I've been living with this problem for 7+ years of ownership. When the weather is warm/hot, it will start 1st try about 6 out of 10 times. When weather is cooler, it will never start 1st try but will always reliably (or unreliably?) start on the 2nd try. I simply learned to live with it.

Back when I was investigating it, it was not conclusive, varying success with replacing crank sensor and charcoal canister. I did neither. However, in April this year, I replaced my chain tensioner.

Since then, I've been able to get it to start on 1st try, even now when it's in the midst of winter in the southern hemisphere and even if the car has been sitting for 4 weeks.

I don't believe anyone has mentioned this before.

Can anyone with more mechanic knowledge share a theory of why this might have helped?
 

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Can anyone with more mechanic knowledge share a theory of why this might have helped?
That is a tough one. the only thing I can think of is the car has no idea where it is because the loose chain the car decides it does not know where the engine sits. On V engines the readings of the sensors get two exact same readings, twice. Because of the design of Vs the car does not know if the reading for cyl one is on the exhaust or fire stroke. So there are procedures built in even on the early versions of engines. On the modern engine these can be complex often and including the shut down of the engine. You turn the key off but really all you did was send a signal to the DME to stop the engine so it delays a mili second and fires its procedure to shut down the engine so that when the engine comes to a stop it should be exactly here.
In your case maybe a check box does not get ticked and the engines says no way I am even going to try and start until I run a procedure to confirm what stroke I am on. We used to see things like this a lot when things were done differently in engine control. Before all these sensors could keep track of things.
If your chain was really loose then you might have had readings for the cam sensors and crank sensor so far out that it decided it needed a full cycle to learn the engine position.
That dies not explain why it only happened cold, but that could be a different issue with the computer storing info in DME. Some info is cached in chips and written down. That info disappears when the power is all used up. While this info is alive the DME can piece things together but when gone must spin the engine to figure out where it is.
No idea really just my wild guess of the day. It is based on on a shadow code that we only have theories on. The shadow code is 10 but it is not a sensor issue. In one of my manuals it said something about improper shutdown position. Never found any more info on it than that. Those codes need special software to read.
 

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M5 Sydney - definitely looks like we get a different system in Australia. I think the evidence is starting to point towards the Charcoal Canister now, particularly given it seems that we have a different fuel vapour system to the guys in the US and Canada who seem not to have this issue.

I'll continue with the spark test with INPA hooked up in the morning, hopefully this time it won't start and I can get some meaningful data.

If you get chance to test a cold start with the canister disconnected I/we would obviously be very interested in the results.

:applause:

Cheers
I’m in the US and have the same problem
 

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I’m in the US and have the same problem
Euro cars and US cars are different on some aspects, don't waste time with the evap system on US car it is not that.
Once you do some of the simple tests, pretty sure there are a few tests in 19 pages you can do to narrow it down or confirm that it is not. Report passes and fails not just fails.
 

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Euro cars and US cars are different on some aspects, don't waste time with the evap system on US car it is not that.
Once you do some of the simple tests, pretty sure there are a few tests in 19 pages you can do to narrow it down or confirm that it is not. Report passes and fails not just fails.
I decided to read all codes in all modules and then clear them to start with a clean slate.
My thinking is that whatever shows up first would give me the best starting point as faults are like dominos sometimes with one triggering another and so on.
After the first start and 3 miles, I read again. The first was crankshaft sensor, I believe this one is triggering the engine malfunction warning. After that warning the check engine light came on with several codes for bank 1 upstream O2 sensor.
Going to install a crank sensor to start and see what happens.
 

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Going to install a crank sensor to start and see what happens.
There is a procedure for that it needs to be measured and the depth set with shims, most don't need to shim.
When ever you know your codes you should post them, there are things that happen and combos of codes that remind people. Also what are you reading the codes with?
 

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There is a procedure for that it needs to be measured and the depth set with shims, most don't need to shim.
When ever you know your codes you should post them, there are things that happen and combos of codes that remind people. Also what are you reading the codes with?
There are too many codes total to list and I’m doing the engine model first, that just has five.
2A94 crank sensor
2C2D O2 sensor pre cat coasting mode
2C3D O2 sensor pre cat line fault
2CA6 O2 sensor pre cat heater function
2CAA O2 sensor pre cat temperature
These codes were first pulled with the scanner NAPA sells to auto shops (ODT brand maybe??).
They were erased and then used my Foxwell 510 with BMW loaded.
I also have the ISTA, INPA Rheingold suite but it has problems maintaining connection. That’s the reason for the Foxwell that I just purchased.
Thanks for your help
 

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There are too many codes total to list and I’m doing the engine model first, that just has five.
2A94 crank sensor
2C2D O2 sensor pre cat coasting mode
2C3D O2 sensor pre cat line fault
2CA6 O2 sensor pre cat heater function
2CAA O2 sensor pre cat temperature
These codes were first pulled with the scanner NAPA sells to auto shops (ODT brand maybe??).
They were erased and then used my Foxwell 510 with BMW loaded.
I also have the ISTA, INPA Rheingold suite but it has problems maintaining connection. That’s the reason for the Foxwell that I just purchased.
Thanks for your help
We did find a hidden secret in your codes, are you in the wrong forum? Those are not E39 M5 codes. If you have a different model then I would not pay much attension to the things in this thread, the E39 M5 is not like anything else. It totally differes from other E39s and it is clear by the next model that BMW learned its lessons from the E39 and did things in a better way.
 

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We did find a hidden secret in your codes, are you in the wrong forum? Those are not E39 M5 codes. If you have a different model then I would not pay much attension to the things in this thread, the E39 M5 is not like anything else. It totally differes from other E39s and it is clear by the next model that BMW learned its lessons from the E39 and did things in a better way.
I am indeed in the wrong thread, here on purpose. I have the E70 X5 with the N63 engine. While there are differences, there are many similarities.
 

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We did find a hidden secret in your codes, are you in the wrong forum? Those are not E39 M5 codes. If you have a different model then I would not pay much attension to the things in this thread, the E39 M5 is not like anything else. It totally differes from other E39s and it is clear by the next model that BMW learned its lessons from the E39 and did things in a better way.
I would argue that the S63 engine which was the next generation from your was, BMW didn’t learn enough. The N62 and S62 are nearly identical as are the N63 and S63. The 63’s are just as problematic in some ways and more in others
 

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The N62 and S62 are nearly identical
Well, I would say totally different beasts. None of the work I have done on an N62 can be translated from my knowledge of S62. I would say they are as far apart as an M62 is to a S62. Yes they share somethings that are mechanically similar but they don't operate the same. Valvetronic changes everything. When you look at what is called the predecessor the S62 is not even mentioned, the M62 is. Both were produced in similar time frames but are on the other side of the street from each other. The engines don't even shutdown the same way. At least the M62 and S62 shutdown in a similar way.
I would say they did learn because they went away from almost all systems they used in the S62 to operate things.
 

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Well, I would say totally different beasts. None of the work I have done on an N62 can be translated from my knowledge of S62. I would say they are as far apart as an M62 is to a S62. Yes they share somethings that are mechanically similar but they don't operate the same. Valvetronic changes everything. When you look at what is called the predecessor the S62 is not even mentioned, the M62 is. Both were produced in similar time frames but are on the other side of the street from each other. The engines don't even shutdown the same way. At least the M62 and S62 shutdown in a similar way.
I would say they did learn because they went away from almost all systems they used in the S62 to operate things.
While there are many mechanical differences, the electronics, modules, coding and engineering are much the same. The crankshaft sensor in the N62 and S62 are the same. While mine N63 is a different part number, it’s in an almost identical location, serves the exact same purpose electronically and shares the same BMW proprietary codes along with generic OBD codes with the 62’s.
All of the V-8’s engineered by BMW are very close to each other and are really not that different. Yes, parts and tooling changes were made.
 

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Well, I would say totally different beasts. None of the work I have done on an N62 can be translated from my knowledge of S62. I would say they are as far apart as an M62 is to a S62. Yes they share somethings that are mechanically similar but they don't operate the same. Valvetronic changes everything. When you look at what is called the predecessor the S62 is not even mentioned, the M62 is. Both were produced in similar time frames but are on the other side of the street from each other. The engines don't even shutdown the same way. At least the M62 and S62 shutdown in a similar way.
I would say they did learn because they went away from almost all systems they used in the S62 to operate things.
I didn’t mention any M models as those are different. But the N62 and S62 are nearly identical. The N63 amd S63 are also nearly identical.
The N62 and N63 are not identical but aren’t totally different like the M.
 

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But the N62 and S62 are nearly identical
You are entitled to your opinion, but as I said Valvetronics game changer. I worked on many S62 and many N62 they don't share issues, but if you want to try and decern why your N63 is only starting on the second try from information posted on a S62 who am I to say don't. Can't say I have ever touched an N63 so maybe you are being smart looking at an S62 thread for details, but it is not the way I would go about things.
 

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What led me hear is the resemblance in symptoms and how many had a bad crank sensor.
If your saying the valvetronic separates the S62 from what I’m dealing with, the N63 also has it, just a newer incarnation.
A lot of my meandering here is I like to do deep research on things. So I e read 89 pages of comments and replies. If just a tiny bit helps me in some way by so much as spurring a thought somewhere I haven’t looked or thought might be connected, then it’s well worth the time. In my health, learning and stimulating my mind helps keep me alive.
 

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If your saying the valvetronic separates the S62 from what I’m dealing with,
Worn levers before they throw codes have a symptom of no start. They start the second time because the vanos makes a change. It is in the programming. I have never seen that I get them when they have full blown lever issues. It is more likely cause of a failed first attempt on a Valvetronic engine, it has to do with how they shutdown.
 

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Worn levers before they throw codes have a symptom of no start. They start the second time because the vanos makes a change. It is in the programming. I have never seen that I get them when they have full blown lever issues. It is more likely cause of a failed first attempt on a Valvetronic engine, it has to do with how they shutdown.
The crankshaft sensor should be here today and I’ll replace ASAP. That crankshaft code is always the first to come back but I’m not sure if it’s being triggered because the failed attempts at starting or it’s the cause.
I’ve not had any codes for VANOS recently. Last year, I had one solenoid go bad and throw codes on bank 1. I went ahead and replaced both on that bank while I was there and that cleared it up. I haven’t tried viewing live data while trying to start the vehicle. Not sure if it’s possible to even do. If it is, timing would be interesting to see.
 

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I haven’t tried viewing live data
The way to test that is unplug the vanos noids. The next time it will not start but let the codes come so the car knows the vanos is not functioning. Once it has been driven with the noids unplugged and the car shutdown it will start first time and start better. The lever issue usually comes when the car has many miles but I have seen a couple of 740s that had it at 60K Km, no idea why but suspect less frequent oil changes.When levers go the repair costs more than the value of the car with N62s.
 
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