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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Why is it hard to maintain?
No clear coat for factory matte finish. Meaning anything oil based or even water based can ruin the matte finish. You can't run it thorough car washes, can't wax or seal the car....there's a specific hand wash only regiment with specific products from the factory.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Unfortunately, with the M5 CS - there are only 3 color options. If i really had it my way, I would order it white and slap gold BBS LMs on her. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
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No clear coat for factory matte finish. Meaning anything oil based or even water based can ruin the matte finish. You can't run it thorough car washes, can't wax or seal the car....there's a specific hand wash only regiment with specific products from the factory.
It just doesn't seem feasible, to never mechanically correct and never coat the paint - the effort to remove bugs/tar etc. without instilling any love marks into the paint. I know you mentioned having been in the high-end detail game and I'm sure you know quite a bit me and my little Porter Cable, so interested in your thoughts. I like the carpro ceramic coatings and have read great things about Gyeon and see they have a Q2 coating developed specifically for matte.

But I just can't imagine not tearing up paint that is without any coating nor the ability to mechanically correct.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
It just doesn't seem feasible, to never mechanically correct and never coat the paint - the effort to remove bugs/tar etc. without instilling any love marks into the paint. I know you mentioned having been in the high-end detail game and I'm sure you know quite a bit me and my little Porter Cable, so interested in your thoughts. I like the carpro ceramic coatings and have read great things about Gyeon and see they have a Q2 coating developed specifically for matte.

But I just can't imagine not tearing up paint that is without any coating nor the ability to mechanically correct.
There's a saying...takes money/time/effort to look pretty LOL. Whether it's buffing out clear coat or a strict hand wash only policy for non-clear coat paint... LOL. Long before manufacturers used clear coat, wax was really the only product that protected your paint from harsh environmental factors like dirt/grime/oil/UV. Without wax, paint oxidizes. With the introduction of clear coat, you basically extended the life of the finish on the car to withstand those harsh environmental factors. A traditional clear coat is intended to fill any divots or minor dips that is created by the rough pigment found in the paint. This creates a smoother surface, with added depth. This is what produces the gloss appearance. It also allowed the ability to "correct" the paint - without actually removing the multiple layers of paint because it's really the clearcoat that you're correcting. The matte paint job finish also includes a clear coating, but not the traditional clear coat. However, instead of filling and leveling the imperfect paint, it creates small dimples in the final coating. This prevents the paint from reflecting light and thus, creates a dull or matte finish. The myth that you can't wax a matte finish (factory matte finish) is true. The oils and other ingredients when applied to a matte finish will basically leave oil residue and all sorts of slimy messes. The reason why you can't take it to a car wash or use just any off the shelf car shampoo, is because they all include some type of wax finish, or oil based ingredients and other "optical brighteners". That's why there is a strict regiment of manufacturer approved products to maintain a matte finish.

Here's an example of a manufacturer that is known for their high quality paint finishes. This is a 1990 Ferrari F40. Paint is PPG, factory, never resprayed...well cared for....NO clearcoat. So when buffing and polishing a non-clearcoated finish, paint will bleed onto your foam pads on a rotary or even the user friendly random orbital (i.e. porter cable). I didn't need the rotary or any cutting compound. Even if it did, I would have been way too risky to start buffing away the paint. So i spent a lot of time using finer grade polishes and varying grit of foam pads with the porter cable to gently correct the paint. Then, topped it off with a Zymol carnauba wax. I took this picture in 2009...so for a finish that was 19 years old...she looks better than some of the finishes out of the factory today. Ferrari really knows what they're doing when it comes to paint.

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Moving along to clear coat finishes. Below, this before picture shows normal damage from years of just basic care (washing and waxing). For this finish, I remember starting with 3M cutting compound with a wool pad with my Mikita rotary polisher. Then going through a multi-stage polish (2 stages, each stage finer and finer product - Menzerna is what we used). And finally, we bust out the random orbital (porter cable) with the finest polish, before we applied wax. The industry refers to this as "paint correction", but you're really correcting the clear coat, which is technically the final layer of "paint".

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Over time, the industry introduced better performing protectants other than wax. This is where you had products like Zaino where you hand apply layer upon layer, which just hides the swirls and scratches, but gives you one helluva deep wet look. The list of synthetic sealants just grew and grew, to replace wax. Wax has a typical shelf life on paint of about a month..assuming you're using the right "soap" when washing your car. Sealants had a multi-month shelf life. Wax gave you the wet look and allows water to bead. Synthetic sealants, gave you a great finish, but not that deep dark contrast shine of a wax....however one application of a good sealant would last 3-6 months.

The above pictures, you can see how the paint colors look deep and pop in the after pic. Both pictures taken under the same shop ceiling lights and the same work lamps shining on the paint. Same camera, same lens. See the color difference in the black? Not a true equal to equal comparison, as the before picture's color saturation is more greener as the angle and the work lights were shining directly on the orange fender giving that yellow hue. I'm referring to the black finish.

Then with the change in clear coat technology, the germans starting using ceramic based clear coats....more durable and resistant to harsh environment conditions and less prone to swirls and scratching. That same technology bled into what we are now seeing, an explosion of "ceramic coatings".

Remember, ceramic coating is just the protective sealant applied. The paint correction techniques itself haven't changed. But ceramic coatings are incredibly durable and can last a year or more with the proper application and care. Highly recommended for people who don't have the time to bust out the wax every weekend. Highly recommended for people who like going through the car wash or live in geographical regions where salt and chemicals are used on the road during the winter. But for car shows....or just a real deep and wet finish...... hands down Carnauba based wax.

I say this with a grain of salt...the actual paint job (whether from factory or after market) determines how "wet and deep" the finish will be. But this picture shows...no ceramic coating finish will ever shine and show color depth like a high quality wax. Look at this picture. Look how little orange peel there is. The base paint job is extremely high quality. I mean super high quality. Better than what Rolls Royce puts out from the factory. But with my work on it....you can almost "hypothetically" fall into that paint job. The customer, at the time was experimenting with us on the different types of carnauba wax. This particular picture was using P21S wax. One of my go to waxes. Not super expensive, but super high quality.

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For comparison...here's a black Rolls Royce phantom. Paint quality is pretty damn good, but you can still see orange peel in this paint. Compare it to the paint job above. World of difference.

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Thank you for the time spent on that post, utterly fantastic and full of information. I frequent the autogeek forums and always liked watching the longer ammo videos where he'd get the opportunity to do a dream project (especially the McLaren F1 longtail and McLaren MP4 forumula 1 projects). One of these days I'll buy a Rupes Bigfoot or Flex 3401 as the Porter Cable is getting a bit weak for correction I'd like to achieve but I just don't like the risk of using the rotary and the holograms to go back and correct in the end, that nasty beast is reserved for the boat's gel coat. This is where I got after about 10-15 hours spread out over a couple of weeks (LC Orange and White Pads, Menzerna 2500 and 3000 respectively and 2 coats of original CQuartz as the LSP).

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With that being said, I can see exactly what you're saying about the difference in depth (and that "wet look") when I compare your pictures to mine. I tell people ceramic coating looks like you wrap a layer of glass around your car and is very cool, but is not that traditional depth of other coatings. It's best for me, because I'm mechanic, detailer and most importantly DRIVER of my car (and sometimes that F80 in the background when the lady is good and happy with me lol) and I just can't keep the paint 100% between four cars and still work and raise 3 kids.

Now, my last question for you and what could have made that Ferrari quite the nervous job. I've read Ferrari was so keen for weight savings on the F40 they used such little paint it was transparent in some places and the emblems were stickers rather than actual emblems. Fact or fiction?!
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 · (Edited)
Thank you for the time spent on that post, utterly fantastic and full of information. I frequent the autogeek forums and always liked watching the longer ammo videos where he'd get the opportunity to do a dream project (especially the McLaren F1 longtail and McLaren MP4 forumula 1 projects). One of these days I'll buy a Rupes Bigfoot or Flex 3401 as the Porter Cable is getting a bit weak for correction I'd like to achieve but I just don't like the risk of using the rotary and the holograms to go back and correct in the end, that nasty beast is reserved for the boat's gel coat. This is where I got after about 10-15 hours spread out over a couple of weeks (LC Orange and White Pads, Menzerna 2500 and 3000 respectively and 2 coats of original CQuartz as the LSP).

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With that being said, I can see exactly what you're saying about the difference in depth (and that "wet look") when I compare your pictures to mine. I tell people ceramic coating looks like you wrap a layer of glass around your car and is very cool, but is not that traditional depth of other coatings. It's best for me, because I'm mechanic, detailer and most importantly DRIVER of my car (and sometimes that F80 in the background when the lady is good and happy with me lol) and I just can't keep the paint 100% between four cars and still work and raise 3 kids.

Now, my last question for you and what could have made that Ferrari quite the nervous job. I've read Ferrari was so keen for weight savings on the F40 they used such little paint it was transparent in some places and the emblems were stickers rather than actual emblems. Fact or fiction?!
HAHAHAH oh man. don't get me started on boats/yachts. We expanded our business to cater to yachts and super yachts. That's where the real money is....but that's also where the real labor begins. For some of these super yachts, you're dangling on a tiny seat buffing out the hull that has the equivalent surface area of a ****ing football field. We invested in rock climbing/rappelling gear...our own dinghy to tie up next to super yacht hulls. Our smallest yacht was a 72', our biggest one was 141'. But for jobs like that, not a fixed rate, but hourly per crew. A super yacht that was 141' took a 6 man crew over 3 weeks. We did the hull, all the teak work, the super structure.... it was INSANE. All on the water, during the summer....exhausting. But for that 141'...I ended up charging the owner $60,000. LOL. But boy, did it look good. Unfortunately, he wouldn't let us take pictures of our work and the dude paid in CASH. I was so tempted to not "report" that transaction...oh the things we could have done with that. "MAKE IT RAIN" LOL. But, my accountant....forced me to report it to the IRS. F#cker.

Here's a little trick for boat owners with fiberglass hulls - Fiberglass Last Step Boat Wax | Collinite Since 1936. Inexpensive and durable.
OR
Rejex. Inexpensive and super durable synthetic sealant. Works great on boat hulls, RVs, Cars, Wheels - https://www.walmart.com/ip/REJEX-16...p.ds&msclkid=3c4b5859b8e415e2a7db3899de55dd17

Anyways....I'm so glad to hear that you are also a Menzerna user. I was one of the first, if not the first, to show the industry how well Menzerna worked. At the time, they had a different coding system for their polishes, and the one polish - hands down the best I've ever seen....was code named PO85.RD. I believe it still follows that name, but I've been told the formula has changed.
Menzerna Polish PO85RD, Mernzerna 85rd, Menzerna finish po85rd, Menzerna Super Finish Plus. If you haven't used it....GET YOURSELF A BOTTLE...on a green foam pad with the orbital...f#cking magic especially after the clear coat has been cut with a wool pad.

You nailed it...the finish of ceramic coating is beautiful, but it's more glassy than it is deep and rich like wax. And I tip my hat to you sir, for how good your black M5 looks. Visually, nothing beats the look and shine of a well maintained black car. Unfortunately, as a former detailer, I know how much effing work goes into maintaining that finish. So....silver or white for me. My Sepang M5....broke that rule....so now I pay someone else to keep her shiny LOL. My X5M has a full matte wrap, so she goes to the car wash all the time LOL. You know the saying, the plumber's toilet always leaks. Yup...I was so busy keeping everyone elses **** shiny, my cars suffered the most. At the time, I had a silver 2001 Audi A6 4.2 and a silver 2005 Cadillac CTS-V, so it was easy to keep that "looking" clean. LOL.

To answer your question about the F40. Here are your answers. The average weight of paint applied to a Boeing 747 is like 500 lbs. So scale that down to a vehicle, it's actually not that much. So with the F40...the weight savings were in the spartan interior, the use of carbon/kevlar body panels, thinner glass, roll up windows... I mean, if you ever get the chance to sit in or let alone drive a F40...once you look inside, you'll know. it's a street legal race car. LOL. The decision to use a small block twin turbo V8, also points to all the weight savings over some big *** V12. Look at how big the hood and trunk lid are...but they are so light because they are all carbon/kevlar. Literally... only the bare necessities to make the F40 go fast, handle fast, stop fast....no luxury/comfort amenities at all. I've only detailed 2 F40s in my lifetime...none of them had thin/transparent paint. Ferrari did all the weight savings where it really counts!

In this pic...the Ferrari emblem on the hood, is an actual emblem
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Rear window, is not glass
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Hood and Trunk open, there ain't **** there except for the true mechanical necessities
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Side Ferrari shield... real shield
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Yeah.. no hydraulics to keep the trunk lid open... yes...that's right. it's an effing stick holding up...stick is factory Ferrari BTW

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Discussion Starter · #33 · (Edited)
I was a MENZERNA freak show...

pic of one my detailing carts
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One of my 4 supply closests
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I personally, once a week, spent 6 hours doing the laundry of all of our microfiber towels. Always separated by use. Baking soda and vinegar formula. For many years, every Wednesday was laundry day for me at the nearby laundromat. I didn't trust any one or service to clean my towels. I was super anal about quality control. Policy, you drop a towel, it gets put in the dropped towel bin. That towel will never see an interior or paint ever.
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Our F350 dually with trailer...for picking up cars from Ferrari of Seattle.
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You sir, I like your evolution. RX8, E60 M5, and I believe an F12...and you keep them all.

I'll have to give the collinite wax a try for the boat, it's certainly no 141' yacht but at the end of the day I guarantee it's a lot more fun than a floating skyscraper. And after going to town with a rotary, wool pad and the heaviest cut polish I had at the time my arms couldn't handle any more length...

When I was a kid in the 90s I dreamed of these old competition ski boats, finally bought one as an adult and I know they say never meet your idols, well they were wrong in this case. These boats are little water sports cars. 2250lb with a mid-mounted chevy connected 1:1 to the prop via straight shaft, and under hull tracking (shark) fins that glue it to the water when turning. Fun to drive is an understatement.
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@kimcheebowl
Not commenting on the color choice - lol. Nice pics of your detailing past - thanks for those.

Back to business, have you ordered your 2022 M5 CS yet? Any eta on build/delivery time?

You may recall, we traded a couple of PMs a month or so back about me looking of a new M-Benz C63s - I am yet to find one locally,(I have a family member at a Benz dealership, so decent "deals", but no stock, none available). 2021 being the last year of the V8s in the C63s. I have but given up.

Now looking at an E63s wagon, M850i, M5 or M8 - kinda in that order. Availability for exactly what you want seems to suck right now. I am aware of the semi-conductor bottle-neck too.

How is your order looking? Good luck!
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
@kimcheebowl
Not commenting on the color choice - lol. Nice pics of your detailing past - thanks for those.

Back to business, have you ordered your 2022 M5 CS yet? Any eta on build/delivery time?

You may recall, we traded a couple of PMs a month or so back about me looking of a new M-Benz C63s - I am yet to find one locally,(I have a family member at a Benz dealership, so decent "deals", but no stock, none available). 2021 being the last year of the V8s in the C63s. I have but given up.

Now looking at an E63s wagon, M850i, M5 or M8 - kinda in that order. Availability for exactly what you want seems to suck right now. I am aware of the semi-conductor bottle-neck too.

How is your order looking? Good luck!
Yo yo @AmstaffM5 - of course I remember you. I came to you with that C63 that was sitting at my local BMW dealership hahaha. I guess I'm not surprised on the low stock of the C63S...the last of the V8s has really pushed the demand super high! Personally, I'm not a big fan of the new 8 series...I don't know what it is. I think I'm just too biased, having grown up drooling over the E31 8 series...especially with the big V12 in the 850CSi, the new 8 series just don't do it for me. To each their own.

My ETA on build is November...Delivery, January 2022. The list in front of me is pretty deep, and while it's common for people to drop off the waiting list...something as limited with the M5 CS typically means less drop off. However, my dealership tells me, a lot of the folks on the M5 CS list are cross shopping the RS6 Avant...so we'll see! I'm ok to wait, I have plenty of toys to keep me busy and I'm looking to pick up a small project car in the meantime. Looking for a C6 Z06 to do full NA motor build.

I have a question for you....your candidates for new toy span a very big range LOL. No judgement...I'm totally like that. I'm a spazzhead. But a small 2 door coupe with the C63S, to a wagon with the E63S, to a sedan with the M5 and then a GT cruiser like the 8. I mean...let's admit, that's kind of all over the place LOL. I get it, each of the ones you are looking at, has it's own merits. Is this new toy a daily driver? a fun toy? an impulse buy?

In my case, if I were in your shoes... I have my M5, and the X5M, with another M5 on the way. The M5 CS is an impulse buy for me LOL. But the reason, I'm looking for a C6 Z06, is because I don't have a "sports" car in my stable. I guess my current toys are all "sports" cars, but I mean in the traditional sense of a 2 door coupe. So based on your candidates, I would continue looking for a used C63S. I'm curious to know more about what "gear head" void you are trying to fill. haha. :) If it's too personal for you, feel free to PM me. LOL
 

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Hehe - thanks for the reply @kimcheebowl .

You are right - my choices are all over the place. Here is my reasoning and how I got there. I do plan to buy new.

The kids are grown and we don't really need a fully functional back seat. Aaaah - a coupe fits the bill. But it must also make decent power and be fun to drive. Yes, yes, a V8 fits the bill and it will sound good too (I had a Tubi exhaust on my E60 M5 - I liked it, sound is important). My son is a master tech for M-Benz, so that will be helpful. That is how I arrived at a C63s. My dealer does not have any open slots to order and other dealers are not prepared to let theirs go. And, the sun is setting on the C63s with a V8, 2021 is the last year. So, I need to broaden the net.
Benz does not have much of a V8 offering in the $100-$130k range - save the E63 (sedan and wagon). There really should be a E63 coupe. I have always liked the wagons - that is how the wagon got on the list. Bigger than we need but performs well and quite unique. Not interested in the E63 sedan and would take the M5 over it, all day..
BMW has more offerings in my price range - M850i on the lower end and M8 a little beyond the high end - and they are coupes, and they have good performance numbers. I have not driven an 8 - will try to do that if this firms up.

I usually keep my cars for many years, don't put many miles on them.
My wife drove a 2001 E39 530i, we bought it new. In 2009 (36k miles on the car) a pickup truck t-boned it when my wife and daughter were in the car. they were fine, the car was totaled. We replaced it with a E60 550i. While we were purchasing the 550i - there was a used 2006 M5 on the showroom floor. that got me thinking. A few months later I picked up my 2008 Interlagos Blue E60 M5 - used with 2 years of warranty left on it. I kept the M5 for about 3 years, put maybe 5k miles on it and sold it for a few $k less than I paid for it. The 550i gave way to a F10 535i in 2013 - which my wife still drives today - 26k miles on it. I also had an X5 when they first came out (1999 or 2000 iirc). At least 1 BMW has been in the garage for the last 20+ years.

My story. A ramble I know. Good luck with your vehicles.
 

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