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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I'm stuggling to come to a conclusion regarding wheels choice and not just in design.

All I'm trying to do is end up with a spare set of wheels so that I can track my car on some decent rubber.

I currently have M6 wheels and I think they look great. My car is loosing an inch or so on Friday and I think it is going to look great, even on the M6 wheels.

So buying an additional set of wheels I really have 2 options.

Buy a set of 20" rims and use them on my car all the time, then use my stock M6 19" rims for track duty.

I don't like a lip on the wheel


In 20's I like:

Neez, but don't seem to be able to get them in the UK and to import them
would also add an additional 17.5% vat + any duty.
Approx price, (no idea, I'd guess £4000, ($8000). but get the US price and then add 17.5% for VAT when they come into the UK.
Can you get Neez in the UK?



RAC R4's but will they ever get made, I was one of the few people in the last batch that was in a possition to transfer money, but was told to wait, but then heard nothing. I know they have started it again, but I'm not 100% confident they will make it and waiting the months it takes to get them made is an issue. Also I'm not 100% confident about getting a replacement if I damage a wheel a couple of years down the line.
approx, £1950 ($3900) 17.5% will probably need to be added when they come into the UK = £2290 ($4580) RAC are amazing a great price and they look great, but I really don't want to wait 3-5 months


BBS the only wheels I can find that have no lip seem to be very heavy and I don't want a heavy wheel on my car. eg BBS CK, rear 20" is about 31lb's and they seem really cheap, I'm guessing the're not forged.
approx £1600 ($3200)


AC Schnitzer type 5, I like these, similar to the M6 wheel
very approx £3500 ($7000)


G Power Silverstone, I like these, though may be a little too bussy.
approx £2800 ($5600)


19" whhels
If I go for 19's they would be for the track and I'd then keep my M6 wheels for everyday, kerbing should not be much of an issue on a track, unless I go cross country.


BBS RS-GT front about 22lb cost wise around £3000 ($6000)


Dymag Carbon/magnesium
What can I say less than 15lb per wheel, I wouldn't get the silver centre, possibly the oyster mettalic. I'm sure it will be possible to feel the difference in performance going from the stock to the dymag, but is it that great?
Approx, hummm, not cheap. £5300 ($10600)
but I'm sure I'd be able to sell them when I've finished with them to some nice person.

I had a few mins so altered an image, it is very rough, but my car would look something like.




So I'm looking for opinions and any advice. Also if anyone has suggestions then great, but I do need to be able to buy the wheels somehow in the UK.

I've been going round in circles, the choice of wheels here in 20's is very very limited, especially if you want a lightweight wheel.
 

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I know many people on here have fitted after-market wheels and some of them really do look very good but I don't think I'd ever put anything other than OEM M5 or M6 wheels on my car.

At the end of last year I put several bids in on a set of genuine M6 wheels for my car and was going to keep my standard M5 wheels for track days/winter driving with specific tyres on. Unfortunately I was outbid :mad: but am always on the hunt for another set.

Nathan, I think you're car looks great with the M6 wheels and if I was in your situation I'd simply get a nice lightweight (dymag) set of 19's with some good rubber for your track days (but I don't want you flying past me on the corners at Silverstone GP.:trophy_bronze:..yes I'm about to book it :1:)

Of all the ones you've listed, my preference, if any, for daily driver wheels would be towards the RAC R4's or the AC Schnitzer type 5 but the latter look too similar to M6 wheels IMO.

If you stick with the M6 wheels for daily driver then go for the ultra light dymags for the track but at the end of the day it's your choice.

PS - if you decide to get rid of your M6 wheels I might be interested.
 

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I think the Dymag's would be overkill for our car. Definitely worth the money, however if you're going that route it would make more sense to put them on a dedicated track car or some sort instead of a 4000lb sedan.

You can see if the make they Neez Eurocross European Rim. That's the version of the Eurocross with no lip. Those are lighter than the QD7's.

Another consideration is to "upgrade" the brakes to a BBK system, but with a smaller rotor diameter so you could fit 18" wheels. Your selection of tires would increase dramatically.
 

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I know many people on here have fitted after-market wheels and some of them really do look very good but I don't think I'd ever put anything other than OEM M5 or M6 wheels on my car.

At the end of last year I put several bids in on a set of genuine M6 wheels for my car and was going to keep my standard M5 wheels for track days/winter driving with specific tyres on. Unfortunately I was outbid :mad: but am always on the hunt for another set.
A second set of M6 wheels is a good solution :M5thumbs:
Full sets with tires often appear on ebay (in the US). If an aftermarket wheel is hard to obtain now, consider how hard it will be to replace a damaged wheel. The OEM wheels will always be available.
 

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Another consideration is to "upgrade" the brakes to a BBK system, but with a smaller rotor diameter so you could fit 18" wheels. Your selection of tires would increase dramatically.
I was going to suggest something somewhat similar. If you are considering spending that much money on wheels, have a custom set of 18" wheels made for the track, which will allow you to use a much wider variety of track tires. A 18" wheel can be made without having to change the brakes, and it should cost you much less than a set of Needz.
 

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As others have said, stick to OEM M5 or M6 wheels. Far classier. For the tracks, buy some superlight 18s and probably upgrade your calipers.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Nathan, I think you're car looks great with the M6 wheels and if I was in your situation I'd simply get a nice lightweight (dymag) set of 19's with some good rubber for your track days (but I don't want you flying past me on the corners at Silverstone GP.:trophy_bronze:..yes I'm about to book it :1:)

Of all the ones you've listed, my preference, if any, for daily driver wheels would be towards the RAC R4's or the AC Schnitzer type 5 but the latter look too similar to M6 wheels IMO.

If you stick with the M6 wheels for daily driver then go for the ultra light dymags for the track but at the end of the day it's your choice.

PS - if you decide to get rid of your M6 wheels I might be interested.
See you at Silverstone, I've also reserved a garage for the day, as I thought it may rain... ;)
should be a great day.

I don't think I'll have the wheels before silverstone, especially if I get dymags, but you never know...

I love my M6 wheels, I think that is why I quite like the look of the AC Schnitzers. With a lowered car I think the 20's look great, but I also think that my 19" M6 wheels will look just as good. I'll know for sure on Friday.

It's the heart and head thing, my head says get some 20's and use the 19's on the track. My heart says sod it, get the lightest 19's you can and have some fun.

My heart is winning...

I think the Dymag's would be overkill for our car. Definitely worth the money, however if you're going that route it would make more sense to put them on a dedicated track car or some sort instead of a 4000lb sedan.

You can see if the make they Neez Eurocross European Rim. That's the version of the Eurocross with no lip. Those are lighter than the QD7's.
Issue with Neez is getting them in the UK and importing them makes them 17.5% more expensive and at that price I'd just buy the dymags.

Yes, our car is a 4000lb brute and it shows, but I love the way this car suprises people I get lots of comments at track days from people and I would like to improve on that and suprise even more people.

On a track I've found a few weeknesses and I'm slowly addressing them, traction is next hence my search for extra wheels. If in the meantime I can save a shed load of weight then great.

some info from dymag website
### from their website ####
The performance gain achieved by reducing the wheel mass (Un-sprung Mass) can be quantified using a factor of six. This means that to achieve the same performance gain by reducing the body mass, it is necessary to remove six times the wheel weight saving.
A saving of 2Kg Per Wheel x 4 Wheels = Removing 48 Kg from the Bodywork.

In some instances, Dymag’s Carbon Mag wheels have reduced the wheel weight by up to 5Kg / Wheel, which equates to saving 120Kg from the bodywork to get the same performance advantage.

Parr Porsche UK said:
The wheels are worth about 40 BHP on the 996 GT3 RS. The “power saving” was worth many hundreds of thousands of Pounds (Sterling) of engine development to extract the same amount of power reliably from the engine

#######################
Not sure about the Parr Porsche comment, many hundreds of thousands of pounds, but you get the idea.

I can't remember the weight of the M6 wheels, but I think around 25lbs, so the 19" dymags would be 10lb per wheel lighter.
so using their equation,

10 x 4 = 40 lbs actual weight
40 x 6 = 240 lbs :wow:

I don't know the weight of the dymags exactly, I came across some weights on the net, so a 19" may be heavier than 15lbs, I found a site that said 13lbs so I added some extra.

Another consideration is to "upgrade" the brakes to a BBK system, but with a smaller rotor diameter so you could fit 18" wheels. Your selection of tires would increase dramatically.
I was going to suggest something somewhat similar. If you are considering spending that much money on wheels, have a custom set of 18" wheels made for the track, which will allow you to use a much wider variety of track tires. A 18" wheel can be made without having to change the brakes, and it should cost you much less than a set of Needz.
This is something that I have not considered, an 18" wheel.

does anyone have any details on the clearance that is needed, ie, the internal diameter?

I do believe that some people have checked the clearance on 18's you can buy off the shelf and you can get wheels to fit, but the clearance is very tight.

An 18" dymag, hummmm


Tyre choice is improving for the 19's, Pirelli Corsa system, soon Toyo R888 and I believe Hoosiers, but the choice of 18's is much greater and also cheaper.
 

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Don't have the stats but 18s fit for sure as many in the northern states have skinny 18 inch winter rims.
 

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This is something that I have not considered, an 18" wheel.

does anyone have any details on the clearance that is needed, ie, the internal diameter?

I do believe that some people have checked the clearance on 18's you can buy off the shelf and you can get wheels to fit, but the clearance is very tight.

An 18" dymag, hummmm


Tyre choice is improving for the 19's, Pirelli Corsa system, soon Toyo R888 and I believe Hoosiers, but the choice of 18's is much greater and also cheaper.
If you go 18's with the wheels, you could have a dedicated track wheel and stick some Michelin Pilot Sport Cup's on or some R-comps. If you do eventually want to run R-comps, I suggest just biting the bullet earlier and get a BBK kit that is 18" wheel friendly. I think brakes will fry pretty fast when they try to slow a heavy car with racing tires.
 

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An 18" dymag, hummmm

I would think this would be the best way to go - cost considerations aside. A lightweight 18' wheel will be your best option for the track. Since Dynamg will make the wheel custom for your order, they should be able to ensure no problems with brake clearance as we know there are 18s out there that work.

Edit: Running 18s will also give you far more options for track tires!
 

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Discussion Starter #12
If you go 18's with the wheels, you could have a dedicated track wheel and stick some Michelin Pilot Sport Cup's on or some R-comps. If you do eventually want to run R-comps, I suggest just biting the bullet earlier and get a BBK kit that is 18" wheel friendly. I think brakes will fry pretty fast when they try to slow a heavy car with racing tires.
Yes the 19's or 18's would be just for the track.

I don't necessarily think the car needs bigger brakes as I've not had too much of a problem running stock, though I now have goodridge hoses, RBF 600 and pagid pads (first time out at silverstone),

Replacement calipers may be a good way to improve the clearance, as I think the issue is probably going to be the caliper clearance.

Does anyone know of a low profile caliper?
 

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Guys --

A few points:

(1) If the R888s will be available in a 19" size that fits our stock wheels, by all means use them. That is what I am using on my M3 track car, and they are excellent.

(2) MPSCs already are available in 265/30/19, and can be used all around on the stock wheels. I have done so with good results on the track (you can find my threads on this topic). 265 is borderline too narrow on the rear, making them not ideal, but they do work.

(3) Don't mess with the stock calipers or rotors. We already have a BBK -- the front rotors are 14.7"!!! Dave Zeckhausen, among others, will tell you that this car does not need an aftermarket BBK, and I would not get one if it decreases the rotor size. The limiting factor in braking performance is tires, not the brakes. For example, the biggest difference you will notice with R-comp tires like MPSCs is the improvement in braking, even more than cornering, which itself is a huge improvement.

(4) Get Pagid RS19 front/RS14 rear brake pads, make sure you bed them in properly, and you will have all the braking you need. I used this combination with MPSCs and had a great time.

(5) Replace the stock brake fluid with a high performance fluid -- at least the ATE Superblue. Cheap but very effective and important so you do not boil the fluid. You should flush your brake fluid before a track day anyway.

This car will amaze people at the track. In the morning they will look at you like you are a misplaced idiot. By the afternoon, they will be coming up to you and offering admiration for what the car can do.

Have fun, and be safe.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Guys --
(1) If the R888s will be available in a 19" size that fits our stock wheels, by all means use them. That is what I am using on my M3 track car, and they are excellent.
I received an email from Toyo saying additional sizes for the R888 will be released in early 2008, I've just sent the guy another email to try and get a date. With the new tyres it will be possible to go with.

265/30ZR19
295/30ZR19

If they can give me a date I'll post it.



Guys --
(2) MPSCs already are available in 265/30/19, and can be used all around on the stock wheels. I have done so with good results on the track (you can find my threads on this topic). 265 is borderline too narrow on the rear, making them not ideal, but they do work.
Is that going to be too narrow for a 10" rear rim?


(3) Don't mess with the stock calipers or rotors. We already have a BBK -- the front rotors are 14.7"!!! Dave Zeckhausen, among others, will tell you that this car does not need an aftermarket BBK, and I would not get one if it decreases the rotor size. The limiting factor in braking performance is tires, not the brakes. For example, the biggest difference you will notice with R-comp tires like MPSCs is the improvement in braking, even more than cornering, which itself is a huge improvement.

(4) Get Pagid RS19 front/RS14 rear brake pads, make sure you bed them in properly, and you will have all the braking you need. I used this combination with MPSCs and had a great time.

(5) Replace the stock brake fluid with a high performance fluid -- at least the ATE Superblue. Cheap but very effective and important so you do not boil the fluid. You should flush your brake fluid before a track day anyway.
I've not really had a problem with the stock brakes, I know that some people have posted saying they are terrible, but that is not my experience, I've only ever once had my pedal go "slightly" spongy.

Since then I'm running Motul RBF 600 and RS19's, I got these late last year, but have not had chance to use them due to the arrival of our baby. So I'm looking forward to using them.
Did you bed your pads in on the street? How long before the trackday did you put them in. (it is around 150 miles to the track from where I am).



The current main problem at this moment is the availability of 19" tyres, Pirelli corsa's are still on back order and still nothing on the Toyo site about the new sizes. Though they have been listed on an advert from a toyo dealer.

An 18" wheel would solve the issue of limited tyres. But the drawback of a 18" wheel is that if I do start to get issues with the brakes running R compound tryes, then it is not an option to get a BBK and I'm also a little concerned about the disipation of heat from the brakes if the clearance is a little tight

I've just checked Michelin tyres and they appear to do:
265/30R19
305/30R19

Do you think that 305 trye would fit onto a 10" rim?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Just heard back from Toyo regarding the R888's

The 305/30R19 will be in stock mid March and the 265/30R19 will be in late April.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Still undecided...

I'm also waiting to hear back from dymag.

Main problem with 19's at the moment is the tyre choice.

I wonder if anyone has tried to mix the tyres front to back.
eg
PS Cups 265/30 front
Toyo R888's 295/30 rear

(untill toyo release the new tyres)

I think a 305 tyre on a 10" rim is not ideal and I don't see the point in going any wider with the wheel as it is just going to add weight.


I've also asked dymag about some potential issues with an 18" rim, but I am concerned that if I go to 18's and then feel I need to get a BBK, I can't unless I change the wheels.

The brakes are great but brake fade is not the same for all drivers or tracks, as it can depend on driving style and the track itself and the thought of spending that kind of money on wheels only to then need largers ones is really the only thing that is holding me back. But the choice in 18 inch tyres is so much better.

I think I may be worry too much about both issues, 18's will probably be fine and April is not far away to be able to run R888's front and rear on 19's
 

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I've also asked dymag about some potential issues with an 18" rim, but I am concerned that if I go to 18's and then feel I need to get a BBK, I can't unless I change the wheels.

The brakes are great but brake fade is not the same for all drivers or tracks, as it can depend on driving style and the track itself and the thought of spending that kind of money on wheels only to then need largers ones is really the only thing that is holding me back. But the choice in 18 inch tyres is so much better.

I think I may be worry too much about both issues, 18's will probably be fine and April is not far away to be able to run R888's front and rear on 19's
A BBK would be beneficial for a few reasons. If you go with a rotor diameter the same or smaller than stock, you'll most likely reduce both sprung and unsprung weight assuming you get floating rotors. The new rotors would also run cooler. The new calipers would likely have 4-6 pistons which would apply more even pressure when compared to the stock 2-piston design, which should result in better pad wear.

I think andrewsherman (might be wrong) was gauging interest in a Stasis spec'd Alcon BBK kit a while back. And I think Stoptech are supposed to have one of the better rotor designs for cooling. Of course there are the other big names like Brembo and Rotora.
 

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Going with a smaller rotor and expecting it to run cooler does not make sense to me. The larger the rotor surface area, the more easily will the heat dissipate. The stock rotors are drilled too. Will a 4- or 6- piston rotor apply more force? Perhaps, but, again, the limiting force is the tires, not the stock brakes. The stock brakes already apply enough force to easily trigger ABS. I am not suggesting that an aftermarket kit is a bad idea, just that it is hard for me to see the cost benefit given the expense and the performance of the stock brakes.

NB -- You certainly are correct that each track imposes different stresses on brakes. I can just tell you about my experience, which consists of countless laps around VIR's Full Course and North Course. Each lap of the Full Course required hard decels from 160+ mph (back straight), 140-145 mph (front straight), 130+ mph (bridge straight), and +/- 120 (into Turn 11), in addition to many others. With the Pagid pads and ATE fluid, I was very pleased with the performance of the stock calipers and rotors. The braking performance on my car was no worse than JCrist's E39 M5 with the Stoptech kit.

If I were you, I would wait the short time for the 19" R888s rather than embarking on an expensive trial and error experiment to find 18" wheels that will fit correctly.
 

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Going with a smaller rotor and expecting it to run cooler does not make sense to me. The larger the rotor surface area, the more easily will the heat dissipate. The stock rotors are drilled too. Will a 4- or 6- piston rotor apply more force? Perhaps, but, again, the limiting force is the tires, not the stock brakes. The stock brakes already apply enough force to easily trigger ABS. I am not suggesting that an aftermarket kit is a bad idea, just that it is hard for me to see the cost benefit given the expense and the performance of the stock brakes.

It would definitely be a pricey upgrade for BBK's, but NB is considering Dymag's so I figured maybe he might go the whole nine yards. The stock rotor is definitely very capable. But going to a smaller size will not be a very large decrease in diameter and will possibly cool better since they would most likely be floating rotors and the if Stoptech's were chosen for example, the better designed vanes would help cool the rotor. I guess if he REALLY wanted to go all the way, there's the new carbon-ceramic upgrade to the Stoptech's, but that price is very high.
 
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