BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums banner

1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
326 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
im just curious.

you know how certain cars eventually get to a
point where the value/price bottoms out.
Im wondering where the E39 would eventually end up.

I think 10year old 150k+ mile M5 could go for 15K
if well maintained. Whats your opinion?

:M5launch:
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
10,456 Posts
E39 MFIVE said:
im just curious.

you know how certain cars eventually get to a
point where the value/price bottoms out.
Im wondering where the E39 would eventually end up.

I think 10year old 150k+ mile M5 could go for 15K
if well maintained. Whats your opinion?

:M5launch:
I wonder. If you look at e28 and e34 values, in the US at least, they seem to be holding ok.
There are a few issues with the e39, i think. First, the engine is not rebuildable. When the alusil bores wear out, you start shopping for a new engine, or perhaps consider sleeving the s62 like discovery auto did for the supercharged cars. Mabye by then bmw will have some deal on short or long blocks to make it feasable to replace an engine.
Then you have all of the electronics that will likely cause issues. Then you have the potential smog issues with all of this 'carbon build up' that is being discussed. For states where it's required anyway, these car will need to pass smog for many, many years to come. Most people who would be looking to spend 15k for an e39 M5 which might need an $8k head clean out job, or an eventual $20k engine, might rather choose to spend 15k for an e34 M5 without some of the issues, which could be rebuilt for $10k when it's needed.

Personally, i plan on keeping my e39 M5 forever, or until it starts to become a headache.
Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
326 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
huh??:eek:

Alusil bore?? Wear out? 20K motor and ahem ahem:sad2:

Can someone elaborate on this Alusil bore??
When does this become an issue??

ouich


mottati said:
I wonder. If you look at e28 and e34 values, in the US at least, they seem to be holding ok.
There are a few issues with the e39, i think. First, the engine is not rebuildable. When the alusil bores wear out, you start shopping for a new engine, or perhaps consider sleeving the s62 like discovery auto did for the supercharged cars. Mabye by then bmw will have some deal on short or long blocks to make it feasable to replace an engine.
Then you have all of the electronics that will likely cause issues. Then you have the potential smog issues with all of this 'carbon build up' that is being discussed. For states where it's required anyway, these car will need to pass smog for many, many years to come. Most people who would be looking to spend 15k for an e39 M5 which might need an $8k head clean out job, or an eventual $20k engine, might rather choose to spend 15k for an e34 M5 without some of the issues, which could be rebuilt for $10k when it's needed.

Personally, i plan on keeping my e39 M5 forever, or until it starts to become a headache.
Mike
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
10,456 Posts
E39 MFIVE said:
huh??:eek:

Alusil bore?? Wear out? 20K motor and ahem ahem:sad2:

Can someone elaborate on this Alusil bore??
When does this become an issue??

ouich
BMW, like porsche, and probably other manufacturers uses an impregnation of a compound they call alusil on the cylinder walls. I think all aluminum blocks have either a coated/impregnated cylinder wall or a cast iron liner, as the Al would wear too quickly. If you've never heard of this, do a search on bmw and nikasil, which was a material used in the 90's that reacted with sulfur in our US fuel and wore away, causing bmw to replace many engines under warranty. The alusil has been used for quite a number of years and seems to work well.

These materials make the aluminum tougher, essentially, so the bores don't wear out quickly. Downside is you can't re-bore the cylinders when they finally do wear out, as you would if the block was cast iron. So there's no "easy" rebuild. Discovery auto has been successful at sleeving the s62 block for their SC projects, so there's no reason to think it couldn't be used when the S62 engine finally wears out, i just don't know the costs involved, and if it'd be cheaper just to find another engine. the 20k is the price i've seen thrown around on the board for a new engine, no evidence beyond what i've heard here.
Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
326 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Are there any tell-tale signs of Alusil wear in a motor??
Any way to test for this?

Because last thing I want to do is buy a M5,
then have the engine fail. Carbon or Alusil,
which would cost 20K to fix..

thanks
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
10,456 Posts
E39 MFIVE said:
Are there any tell-tale signs of Alusil wear in a motor??
Any way to test for this?

thanks
This is not a big issue. Time and milage will cause the alusil to wear, just like the cylinder bores on any engine. A compression test would certainly show if there were any problems. Let me re-state alusil wear is NOT an issue, my point was an aluminum engine with coated/impregnated cylinder walls is not typically "re-bore-able" when the engine finally just wears out.
Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
221 Posts
I hope someone that knows for sure will chime in, but it's my understanding that Nikasil and Alusil are NOT coatings, rather they are more of a process. The blocks are made of a specific alloy composition, the specific metals determine if it's Nikasil or Alusil. The cylinders are then treated with acid to etch away the surface layer of aluminum, leaving behind a structured lattice of silicon crystals. This surface is very hard and durable and will generally outlast the pistons.

The problem with boring an S62 block is two-fold. One, wall thickness between bores is only 4mm so there's not much there in the first place. Second, if you do enlarge the bore, you better better know how to etch the walls to expose that hard silicon lattice!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,398 Posts
mottati said:
This is not a big issue. Time and milage will cause the alusil to wear, just like the cylinder bores on any engine. A compression test would certainly show if there were any problems. Let me re-state alusil wear is NOT an issue, my point was an aluminum engine with coated/impregnated cylinder walls is not typically "re-bore-able" when the engine finally just wears out.
Mike
Totally agree- Mike was just making a marginal argument that might affect the ultimate value of an E39M5... this is not an issue anyone has posted from direct experience (if I recall) engine failures at this stage are of the 'go boom' variety not 'wear out/leaking oil/low compression' variety.

In your case (deciding which car to buy) I would think long and hard about the 2000/2001 changes to the new ring design- the prevailing wisdom used to be that the old ring design ' just *might* burn more oil'... if (and this is admittedly a big if) the carbon fouling issue is related to oil usgage, maybe picking a new ring design vintage is prudent.

Still, this is like discussing cancer and risk factors- nothing is absolute.

A
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
837 Posts
I know they use Nikasil alot on dirt bike cylinders and I have had them re Nikasiled before and it was cheaper then cylinder replacement, can they do the same thing with alusil?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
400 Posts
Credit to Wards Auto World 1999 for this information:



Nikasil: An aluminum engine is dunked in an electrolytic "bath" of free-floating nickel, silicon and other junk. The electrolytic action causes these hardy substances to adhere to the aluminum surfaces.
"It does work very well in a lot of applications," admits one engineer philosophically behind iron liners. But Nikasil's main drawbacks are serious.

First, says Achim Sach, of VAW Motor GmbH, a part of the VAW Group aligned with Mexican casting giant Cifunsa SA, "Nobody wants to have nickel in the plants anymore." Also, as noted in September, high-sulfur fuels eat away at the coating, eventually rendering it useless. Result: ruined engine. And Nikasil has "throughput" issues: The block has to be labor-intensively "masked" before it takes a Nikasil bath, so that the particles cling only to the bore surfaces. And the block has to soak for more than an hour, claim some skeptical sources. Nikasil appears to be on the skids for these reasons. BMWhas abandoned the process. Jaguar Cars and Ferrari SpA still like it, though.

n Alusil: The engine block is fashioned from high-silicon content aluminum alloy. The block undergoes initial machining, then, similar to Nikasil, is dipped in an acidic bath that etches away the aluminum on the bore surfaces, exposing the durable-wearing silicon.

Again, however, there are considerable problems. Alusil blocks must be made in a slow, low-pressure process, says Mr. Sach, and the original alloy itself is more expensive. He believes Alusil is good for low-volume use where cost and manufacturing speed are not the priorities.

Alusil's cost might be bearable even for mainstream vehicles, but a foreign automaker engineer insists, "Throughput time is not acceptable for high-volume lines. We would never consider this process."

Hope that helps in a better understanding of the differences,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
351 Posts
This is great info, but back to the question. I sold an '88 M5 five years ago with 110k for $10,500. I purchased the car for $8,500 and drove it daily for 2 years. Car was in fair condition at best.
I watch from time to time and it appears most E28 M5's are still hovering around $10-15k. Most M6's of that era are holding their value as well around $14-20k as there has been a premium for at least the 5 years I've been watching.
So, with this in mind, I'd bet the E39 M5 will settle in near the 10 year mark with average miles at $15-20k or so. If in fact my car is only worth $20k after owning for 10 years and having paid $50k for it in 2003, this results in a cost of depreciation of $250 per month over a 10 year time frame. How many other uber sedans can you own for $250/month?

TripleD
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,406 Posts
Except that $250 / month does not cover repairs over that time-period, and for true cost of ownership comparisons, it should. My guess is that would aprox double the figure. Still not too bad for what you are getting all things considering. I spent considerably more and lost $13K in 1 year of ownership when I sold a CPO car 1 year before the warrantee was up. But at the time I was getting into a brand new Z06 at a dead even trade so I did not care so much. Now I am driving a brand new CTS-V.

Scott
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Top