BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums banner

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
109 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Im looking for new brake pads and i was wondering what would be a good choice? the brakes will go on a factory brake set up. i dont really care about break dust i just want good pads!

thanks
jesh
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
2,977 Posts
jeshie7 said:
Im looking for new brake pads and i was wondering what would be a good choice? the brakes will go on a factory brake set up. i dont really care about break dust i just want good pads!

thanks
jesh
It is like asking "What is the best Wife"... A very complex question the answer to which depends very much on you and how you define the inhently multidimensional word "best".

Look at the Zeckhausen Racing website. Lots of brake info for the M5.

David
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,967 Posts
DavidS said:
It is like asking "What is the best Wife"... A very complex question the answer to which depends very much on you and how you define the inhently multidimensional word "best".



David
Oh, that one is easy. The best wife is the current one!! hiha hiha :cheers: On the brake front, Axxis Ultimates will give better braking with less dust. That should be enough brake pad for most street work. But as DavidS suggests, consult with our own brake guru, Dave Z and he can supply you with what you need.
Regards,
Jerry
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,246 Posts
I have been pleased with the Axxis Ultimates on my car. They have great bite in hot and cold and do not fade with high speed braking. Great upgrade if you can live with the extra dust and little noise;).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
193 Posts
A Dinan tech told me that using the OEM pads will not warp the rotors but most alternate "long wearing" pads will. While BMW insists on replacing the rotors with every brake job, it is not really required because they are very thick and hence can easily be turned (ground flat). So if you plan on turning the rotors, you should stick with OEM, but if you plan on using a dealer (or don't care) consider using alternate pads.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
I have used Mintex Red Box pads on about 5 BMWs in the past, extremely low dust if that is primary concern, but I do not track the car so not sure if these are a hi perf pad in the perf sense.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
136 Posts
I have tried a few different pads on my M5 and found that Hawk HP+ pads stop the best hands down for a pad that you can use on the street as well as the track. Axxis Ultimates are close, but don't quite bite as hard as the Hawks. On my car I have Hawk HP+ pads all around with StopTech stainless lines and ATE Super Blue fluid. The hotter the Hawks get, the more they bite. I can even outbrake my friend's M5 and he has the StopTech front setup. The stock brakes with upgraded pads and lines will stop every bit as good as a big brake setup, only good thing about a BBK kit is that they don't fade on the track. I got my entire brake setup from www.cobaltfriction.com for a very good price. Ask for Andy Lin if you decide to order, he is VERY knowledgeble on brakes. :cheers:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,353 Posts
A Dinan tech told me that using the OEM pads will not warp the rotors but most alternate "long wearing" pads will. While BMW insists on replacing the rotors with every brake job, it is not really required because they are very thick and hence can easily be turned (ground flat). So if you plan on turning the rotors, you should stick with OEM, but if you plan on using a dealer (or don't care) consider using alternate pads.
No street pads will really warp rotors. Any vibration is usually due to uneven deposits on the rotors. Look at these StopTech white papers on the subject.

BTW, the BMW rotors are NOT very thick in terms of the stopping layer and they CANNOT be turned. When they wear below the minimum thickness, the factory recommendation and that of all brake experts, not just the dealer, is to replace them. Do a search. This subject has been covered a lot in the past. As for recommendations, if you want the lowest possible dust with performance very similar to stock, get Axxis Deluxe Plus. If you can tolerate more dust, but still a little bit less than stock, go for Axxis Ultimates. Mintex red boxes are fine, too, but tend to leave uneven deposits rather easily. They stop a bit better cold than Deluxe Plus but have more dust (but less than Ultimates). Yes, I've tried them both.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
///M5_Madman said:
I have tried a few different pads on my M5 and found that Hawk HP+ pads stop the best hands down for a pad that you can use on the street as well as the track. Axxis Ultimates are close, but don't quite bite as hard as the Hawks. On my car I have Hawk HP+ pads all around with StopTech stainless lines and ATE Super Blue fluid. The hotter the Hawks get, the more they bite.
You've got a ticking time bomb on that car.

The Hawk HP Plus is an incredible pad for street and autocross. It has better cold bite than just about anything out there. I can't think of a better pad for autocross. The downside for daily driving is that HP Plus pads tend to squeal under light braking.

The problem is that someone has convinced you that the HP Plus is a track pad. They couldn't be more wrong. Although it will tolerate higher temperatures than the stock pads before fading, it will fade suddenly and completely when it finally does reach maximum operating temperature (MOT). I was at a brake friction seminar last year, taught by Rob Nelson - the former President of Hawk's friction division. He told us to NEVER allow our customers to run either Hawk HPS or HP Plus at the track for this very reason. He described the performance of these pads as "falling off a cliff" when they reach their MOT. You can have great braking on laps 1 through 4 and then have nothing on lap 5. No warning. Suddenly you hit the brake pedal and there's no friction, despite a firm pedal.

Since that seminar, I've spoken with at least four customers who had this exact experience, running off the end of the straight without brakes as the result of Hawk HP Plus pads fading without warning. You want a pad that has a high MOT, but once it reaches that temperature, begins to fall off in friction level slowly. This gives you plenty of feedback and allows you to back off slightly in order to manage your brakes. Hawk HP Plus is not that pad. It's only a matter of time before your experience level or a change in your equipment level (e.g., adding R compound track tires) will allow you to reach the Hawk's MOT and then you'll be in trouble. Consider swapping in some Hawk HT10 track pads into your front calipers before your next track day.

I can even outbrake my friend's M5 and he has the StopTech front setup. The stock brakes with upgraded pads and lines will stop every bit as good as a big brake setup, only good thing about a BBK kit is that they don't fade on the track.
With the same tires and suspension, as well as the same driver, you will not be able to outbrake a StopTech-equipped M5 with one using stock brakes. There's something else going on here, either a lack of experience, a difference in tire compound, a different initial braking point, or inappropriate pads on the StopTech-equipped car.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
931 Posts
I use Axxis Ultimate pads all around, SS lines and Mutol fluid. At first the pads squealed like banshies, then after 'beding' the pads and about 500 miles they are very quiet and low dust. Very happy with them!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,967 Posts
DZeckhausen said:
You've got a ticking time bomb on that car.

The Hawk HP Plus is an incredible pad for street and autocross. It has better cold bite than just about anything out there. I can't think of a better pad for autocross. The downside for daily driving is that HP Plus pads tend to squeal under light braking.

The problem is that someone has convinced you that the HP Plus is a track pad. They couldn't be more wrong. Although it will tolerate higher temperatures than the stock pads before fading, it will fade suddenly and completely when it finally does reach maximum operating temperature (MOT). I was at a brake friction seminar last year, taught by Rob Nelson - the former President of Hawk's friction division. He told us to NEVER allow our customers to run either Hawk HPS or HP Plus at the track for this very reason. He described the performance of these pads as "falling off a cliff" when they reach their MOT. You can have great braking on laps 1 through 4 and then have nothing on lap 5. No warning. Suddenly you hit the brake pedal and there's no friction, despite a firm pedal.

Since that seminar, I've spoken with at least four customers who had this exact experience, running off the end of the straight without brakes as the result of Hawk HP Plus pads fading without warning. You want a pad that has a high MOT, but once it reaches that temperature, begins to fall off in friction level slowly. This gives you plenty of feedback and allows you to back off slightly in order to manage your brakes. Hawk HP Plus is not that pad. It's only a matter of time before your experience level or a change in your equipment level (e.g., adding R compound track tires) will allow you to reach the Hawk's MOT and then you'll be in trouble. Consider swapping in some Hawk HT10 track pads into your front calipers before your next track day.

With the same tires and suspension, as well as the same driver, you will not be able to outbrake a StopTech-equipped M5 with one using stock brakes. There's something else going on here, either a lack of experience, a difference in tire compound, a different initial braking point, or inappropriate pads on the StopTech-equipped car.
I am going to tip toe in here, because it is hard not to agree with our resident brake guru. But my experience is a little different.

I have used HP plus on my 3800# Audi quattro wagon for street (yes they squeal under light braking, just use them in the front) and occassional track duty. While not quite as good as Hawk Blues, which I normally use on the track, they were close. I did NOT have any fade issues, although the pedal is a little spongier than with Blues. A quick bleed after the first session helps that.

Now, if I were racing, I would never use HP plus on the track, but for DE, I think it is OK. The car pulls close to 130 indicated at the end of the front straight on the local track, so the brakes get a good workout there. Not sure how fast I am, but I run instructor group and not a lot of cars pass me. ;) Maybe the trick is not using much brakes!!!! :) cherrsagai
Regards,
Jerry
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
gsfent said:
Now, if I were racing, I would never use HP plus on the track, but for DE, I think it is OK. The car pulls close to 130 indicated at the end of the front straight on the local track, so the brakes get a good workout there. Not sure how fast I am, but I run instructor group and not a lot of cars pass me. ;) Maybe the trick is not using much brakes!!!! :) cherrsagai
Regards,
Jerry
That's the key here. You haven't yet pushed the HP Plus to MOT. It's not that they fade early. It's the way in which they go once they do fade. The pad is so unforgiving that the former president of the company that made them warned me against using them on the track.

In addition to the four guys who went off the track because they lost all friction from their HP Plus pads, I've spoken with a number of folks who think the HP Plus are just fine. Most of them are running lower horsepower cars and they aren't up to your level of driving. I'm willing to bet, however, that if you shod that Audi with Michelin Pilot Sport Cups or Hoosier race tires, you'll be finding out how much runout there is at your local circuit. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,099 Posts
I am about to need new pads myself. I was thinking the Axxis Ultimates. The BMW dealership recommended I get new front rotors as well. I am waiting for a 2nd opinion before spending the big bucks. Here's the details.
1. Poor bedding in procedures with Deluxe Plus pads and rain ruined the original rotors at 30k miles.
2. I've been on new factory rotors and stock pads since then. I'm now at 60k miles.
3. I do have stainless lines and run ATE Super Blue or Type 200 fluid.
4. I experience minimal fade, even with R compund tires but would like it to be less.
5. The front rotors appear to be scored but there is no noise or vibration from the brakes.
6. The front pads are down to 30% and need replaced before the next track event.

My questions are:
1. Would Axxis Ultimates be a good choice for occasional track use? I'm not up to expert level and doubt I'll ever push the M5 THAT hard on the track.
2. If the rotors are scored, would new pads cause noise or vibrations? Could they be bedded in to eliminate the problem?
3. Can a slight bit of metal (1/2mm) be turned off the factory rotors to help?
4. I've kicked around Stoptek calipers and rotors on the front. Can stoptek calipers be put on factory rear rotors? I may not keep the car a significantly long time and don't want to do a full BBK.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,353 Posts
1. Would Axxis Ultimates be a good choice for occasional track use? I'm not up to expert level and doubt I'll ever push the M5 THAT hard on the track.
I think beginners (like me) are harder on brakes than experts. That's why Jerry hasn't gone off road with his Hawk HP+ Audi.
I'd be off into the weeds in no time with these pads. But I think the Ultimates would be OK because they go away more gradually so there's warning. Just don't think of them as track pads, as they really can't take the heat of repeated track braking. That said, here's what Dave Z said in another thread:

Please consider swapping out your front pads, before the next track event, to Hawk HT10 track pads. The Axxis Ultimate is not a track pad and, as you get better, will let you down big time. At the temperatures you already subjected them to, the Kevlar will vaporize and the pads will begin to crack and chunk. And they will leave massive deposits on your rotors, resulting in a judder problem while braking.
2. If the rotors are scored, would new pads cause noise or vibrations? Could they be bedded in to eliminate the problem?
The scoring could set up the high freq vibrations that cause squeal. But there's no way to reliably predict this. You could have no problems. Then again, you could.

3. Can a slight bit of metal (1/2mm) be turned off the factory rotors to help?
Not that I know of. The braking surface is quite thin.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,967 Posts
DZeckhausen said:
That's the key here. You haven't yet pushed the HP Plus to MOT. It's not that they fade early. It's the way in which they go once they do fade. The pad is so unforgiving that the former president of the company that made them warned me against using them on the track.

In addition to the four guys who went off the track because they lost all friction from their HP Plus pads, I've spoken with a number of folks who think the HP Plus are just fine. Most of them are running lower horsepower cars and they aren't up to your level of driving. I'm willing to bet, however, that if you shod that Audi with Michelin Pilot Sport Cups or Hoosier race tires, you'll be finding out how much runout there is at your local circuit. ;)
Well, at a DE I am not usually trying to get the last ounce of braking out of my car (ok, excluding any red mist at the end of the day!)......and I learned that brakes only slow down a car, so on the track use them for the shortest amount of time possible :thumbsup: . Track tire of choice has been Toyo RA1's, best combo of stick and value $$. I even like those on the race car, Hoosiers are slightly faster, but only last a weekend!! For a pro racer, with money on the line, they make sense, for the weekend warrior who might get a $5 trophy, can't be justified. :M5launch:
M5 is close to trying on the track, so I will be ordering some Blues shortly!!
Regards,
Jerry
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
gsfent said:
M5 is close to trying on the track, so I will be ordering some Blues shortly!!
Trust me on this - you'll be better off with the HT10 than the Hawk Blue. And the finish on your wheels will thank me too! ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
298 Posts
DZeckhausen said:
Trust me on this - you'll be better off with the HT10 than the Hawk Blue. And the finish on your wheels will thank me too! ;)
I used HP+ on my E36 M3 on the track last season. This season I switched to HT-10s at Dave Z's recomendation and I couldn't be more pleased, they are a much better pad once you get them heated up. Everyone I give rides to is impressed with how well my car scrubs off speed with otherwise stock brakes (except for euro floating rotors on the front), and they are consistent and fade free lap after lap. I gave a ride to a NASA instructor at Autobahn CC and he talked about my "Hand of God" brakes for the rest of the weekend.

My experience with HP+ was that I could push them to the point of fading at some shorter more technical tracks, when they faded they faded fast but I usually had a one or two stop warning before they went away altogether and if I backed off they came back just as quickly as they went away. If you aren't paying attention and you keep braking hard after they start to fade, it won't be long before you are off the track. They just don't slow the car down as well as the HT-10s though, so I won't go back.

I guess the pertinent point is that the manufacturer doesn't recomend them for the track; I don't presume to have more knowledge of their product than they do. Brake pads are just one of those things that you need different operating characteristics on the street than you do on the track so to think that you can use one product optimally for both is really a compromise in at least one situation.

Just my $.02 based upon 16 track days so far this year, 5 more to go.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,967 Posts
DZeckhausen said:
Trust me on this - you'll be better off with the HT10 than the Hawk Blue. And the finish on your wheels will thank me too! ;)
Dave
HT 10 a step above Blues? Would you recommend same for my 2002 race car?
Regards,
Jerry
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
gsfent said:
Dave
HT 10 a step above Blues? Would you recommend same for my 2002 race car?
Regards,
Jerry
What is your 2002 race car? By "2002" do you man model year 2002? Or is your race car an old BMW 2002?

The Hawk Blue is a club race pad that works well for low horsepower, light weight cars. For a heavy, powerful car like the M5, the HT10 is a much better choice, as it's a full race pad. The MOT of the HT10 is 1400 degrees F, whereas the Hawk Blue peters out at just over 1000 degrees F.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,967 Posts
DZeckhausen said:
What is your 2002 race car? By "2002" do you man model year 2002? Or is your race car an old BMW 2002?

The Hawk Blue is a club race pad that works well for low horsepower, light weight cars. For a heavy, powerful car like the M5, the HT10 is a much better choice, as it's a full race pad. The MOT of the HT10 is 1400 degrees F, whereas the Hawk Blue peters out at just over 1000 degrees F.
Sorry Dave, race car is a 71 '02, dual webers, schrick, 320 front brakes, drum rear. I use the Blues on that, and also on my 3800# Audi quattro, and never had a problem with them on either car. Audi hits 125-130 indicated at Moroso, similar on the back straight at Sebring.
If you recommend HT10 over Blues, that is probably what I will do, along with the heat shields IIRC. Thanks for the info.
Regards,
Jerry
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top