It is like asking "What is the best Wife"... A very complex question the answer to which depends very much on you and how you define the inhently multidimensional word "best".jeshie7 said:Im looking for new brake pads and i was wondering what would be a good choice? the brakes will go on a factory brake set up. i dont really care about break dust i just want good pads!
Oh, that one is easy. The best wife is the current one!! hiha hiha :cheers: On the brake front, Axxis Ultimates will give better braking with less dust. That should be enough brake pad for most street work. But as DavidS suggests, consult with our own brake guru, Dave Z and he can supply you with what you need.DavidS said:It is like asking "What is the best Wife"... A very complex question the answer to which depends very much on you and how you define the inhently multidimensional word "best".
No street pads will really warp rotors. Any vibration is usually due to uneven deposits on the rotors. Look at these StopTech white papers on the subject.A Dinan tech told me that using the OEM pads will not warp the rotors but most alternate "long wearing" pads will. While BMW insists on replacing the rotors with every brake job, it is not really required because they are very thick and hence can easily be turned (ground flat). So if you plan on turning the rotors, you should stick with OEM, but if you plan on using a dealer (or don't care) consider using alternate pads.
You've got a ticking time bomb on that car.///M5_Madman said:I have tried a few different pads on my M5 and found that Hawk HP+ pads stop the best hands down for a pad that you can use on the street as well as the track. Axxis Ultimates are close, but don't quite bite as hard as the Hawks. On my car I have Hawk HP+ pads all around with StopTech stainless lines and ATE Super Blue fluid. The hotter the Hawks get, the more they bite.
With the same tires and suspension, as well as the same driver, you will not be able to outbrake a StopTech-equipped M5 with one using stock brakes. There's something else going on here, either a lack of experience, a difference in tire compound, a different initial braking point, or inappropriate pads on the StopTech-equipped car.I can even outbrake my friend's M5 and he has the StopTech front setup. The stock brakes with upgraded pads and lines will stop every bit as good as a big brake setup, only good thing about a BBK kit is that they don't fade on the track.
I am going to tip toe in here, because it is hard not to agree with our resident brake guru. But my experience is a little different.DZeckhausen said:You've got a ticking time bomb on that car.
The Hawk HP Plus is an incredible pad for street and autocross. It has better cold bite than just about anything out there. I can't think of a better pad for autocross. The downside for daily driving is that HP Plus pads tend to squeal under light braking.
The problem is that someone has convinced you that the HP Plus is a track pad. They couldn't be more wrong. Although it will tolerate higher temperatures than the stock pads before fading, it will fade suddenly and completely when it finally does reach maximum operating temperature (MOT). I was at a brake friction seminar last year, taught by Rob Nelson - the former President of Hawk's friction division. He told us to NEVER allow our customers to run either Hawk HPS or HP Plus at the track for this very reason. He described the performance of these pads as "falling off a cliff" when they reach their MOT. You can have great braking on laps 1 through 4 and then have nothing on lap 5. No warning. Suddenly you hit the brake pedal and there's no friction, despite a firm pedal.
Since that seminar, I've spoken with at least four customers who had this exact experience, running off the end of the straight without brakes as the result of Hawk HP Plus pads fading without warning. You want a pad that has a high MOT, but once it reaches that temperature, begins to fall off in friction level slowly. This gives you plenty of feedback and allows you to back off slightly in order to manage your brakes. Hawk HP Plus is not that pad. It's only a matter of time before your experience level or a change in your equipment level (e.g., adding R compound track tires) will allow you to reach the Hawk's MOT and then you'll be in trouble. Consider swapping in some Hawk HT10 track pads into your front calipers before your next track day.
With the same tires and suspension, as well as the same driver, you will not be able to outbrake a StopTech-equipped M5 with one using stock brakes. There's something else going on here, either a lack of experience, a difference in tire compound, a different initial braking point, or inappropriate pads on the StopTech-equipped car.
That's the key here. You haven't yet pushed the HP Plus to MOT. It's not that they fade early. It's the way in which they go once they do fade. The pad is so unforgiving that the former president of the company that made them warned me against using them on the track.gsfent said:Now, if I were racing, I would never use HP plus on the track, but for DE, I think it is OK. The car pulls close to 130 indicated at the end of the front straight on the local track, so the brakes get a good workout there. Not sure how fast I am, but I run instructor group and not a lot of cars pass me. Maybe the trick is not using much brakes!!!! cherrsagai
I think beginners (like me) are harder on brakes than experts. That's why Jerry hasn't gone off road with his Hawk HP+ Audi.1. Would Axxis Ultimates be a good choice for occasional track use? I'm not up to expert level and doubt I'll ever push the M5 THAT hard on the track.
Please consider swapping out your front pads, before the next track event, to Hawk HT10 track pads. The Axxis Ultimate is not a track pad and, as you get better, will let you down big time. At the temperatures you already subjected them to, the Kevlar will vaporize and the pads will begin to crack and chunk. And they will leave massive deposits on your rotors, resulting in a judder problem while braking.
The scoring could set up the high freq vibrations that cause squeal. But there's no way to reliably predict this. You could have no problems. Then again, you could.2. If the rotors are scored, would new pads cause noise or vibrations? Could they be bedded in to eliminate the problem?
Not that I know of. The braking surface is quite thin.3. Can a slight bit of metal (1/2mm) be turned off the factory rotors to help?
Well, at a DE I am not usually trying to get the last ounce of braking out of my car (ok, excluding any red mist at the end of the day!)......and I learned that brakes only slow down a car, so on the track use them for the shortest amount of time possible :thumbsup: . Track tire of choice has been Toyo RA1's, best combo of stick and value $$. I even like those on the race car, Hoosiers are slightly faster, but only last a weekend!! For a pro racer, with money on the line, they make sense, for the weekend warrior who might get a $5 trophy, can't be justified. :M5launch:DZeckhausen said:That's the key here. You haven't yet pushed the HP Plus to MOT. It's not that they fade early. It's the way in which they go once they do fade. The pad is so unforgiving that the former president of the company that made them warned me against using them on the track.
In addition to the four guys who went off the track because they lost all friction from their HP Plus pads, I've spoken with a number of folks who think the HP Plus are just fine. Most of them are running lower horsepower cars and they aren't up to your level of driving. I'm willing to bet, however, that if you shod that Audi with Michelin Pilot Sport Cups or Hoosier race tires, you'll be finding out how much runout there is at your local circuit.
I used HP+ on my E36 M3 on the track last season. This season I switched to HT-10s at Dave Z's recomendation and I couldn't be more pleased, they are a much better pad once you get them heated up. Everyone I give rides to is impressed with how well my car scrubs off speed with otherwise stock brakes (except for euro floating rotors on the front), and they are consistent and fade free lap after lap. I gave a ride to a NASA instructor at Autobahn CC and he talked about my "Hand of God" brakes for the rest of the weekend.DZeckhausen said:Trust me on this - you'll be better off with the HT10 than the Hawk Blue. And the finish on your wheels will thank me too!
What is your 2002 race car? By "2002" do you man model year 2002? Or is your race car an old BMW 2002?gsfent said:Dave
HT 10 a step above Blues? Would you recommend same for my 2002 race car?
Sorry Dave, race car is a 71 '02, dual webers, schrick, 320 front brakes, drum rear. I use the Blues on that, and also on my 3800# Audi quattro, and never had a problem with them on either car. Audi hits 125-130 indicated at Moroso, similar on the back straight at Sebring.DZeckhausen said:What is your 2002 race car? By "2002" do you man model year 2002? Or is your race car an old BMW 2002?
The Hawk Blue is a club race pad that works well for low horsepower, light weight cars. For a heavy, powerful car like the M5, the HT10 is a much better choice, as it's a full race pad. The MOT of the HT10 is 1400 degrees F, whereas the Hawk Blue peters out at just over 1000 degrees F.