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Discussion Starter #1
Took the car to the stealers today due to it having gone into limp mode a few times when accelerating hard. Instead of coming back identifying what I would have thought was a genuine problem they have blamed the ECU problems and limp mode problems on the Supersprint exhaust. Now it's worth bearing in mind the exhaust has been almost a year and around 35,000 miles with NO problems at all! My guess is something else is causing this problem and not the exhaust/ecu. Their comments have also not even addressed the issue of WHY it went into limp mode! I've also had plenty of warranty work done it in it's exact current configuration.

What do you guys think of this reply? Is it BS or could it be genuine? Anyone else had this issue?

The system has been remapped. The exhaust is the full Supersprint system headers and deleted cats.

From: Smith, Mark <[email protected]>
To: Mark Maddox
Sent: Fri Jan 14 18:00:56 2011
Subject: DME fault/ Exhaust


Dear Mark,

Ref limp mode / reduced power faults.

Carried out fault memory check and followed test schedule. Various faults stored with DME.

Car requires replacement DME, however car has non-genuine exhaust fitted with not Catalytic converters. In our view DME faults will not be corrected unless correct BMW exhaust system is fitted to vehicle. The DME appears to have been mapped also. None of this work would be warranty. Diagnosis today is chargeable £105.32, including the Loan car charge.

Moving forward: You could replace the BMW exhaust system, but this would be at major cost.

Or replace the DME, and return the vehicle to where it was mapped, so that it potentially works with the exhaust currently fitted to the car.

Or if the old exhaust is available we could refit the original exhaust to the vehicle, and fit the new DME.


Kind regards,

Mark




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Looks like the goodwill you have experienced for so long now has finally come to an end. Its a shame, but i think its only fair seeing as the car is getting less and less 'OEM'. I do feel for you but its for this reason ive decided not to persue the modding trail with the M5. One day the service team might be happy to process warranty claims for a modded car, but the next they can change their mind without any come back from you.

Hope you come to a reasonable agreement with the dealer.

Eddie
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Looks like the goodwill you have experienced for so long now has finally come to an end. Its a shame, but i think its only fair seeing as the car is getting less and less 'OEM'. I do feel for you but its for this reason ive decided not to persue the modding trail with the M5. One day the service team might be happy to process warranty claims for a modded car, but the next they can change their mind without any come back from you.

Hope you come to a reasonable agreement with the dealer.

Eddie
I'm more than happy to pay for any repairs that need doing due to modded parts. But their comments don't even address the problem. I mean surely the the ECU is MEANT to enter limp mode if the emmissions are wrong? Does not mean the ECU needs replacing though does it? It means the ECU is actually working! I cannot understand why the ECU would need replacing at all?!
 

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Fair one. Im no technical wizzard when it comes to BMW engines, especially //M engines, but yeah, if the ecu is picking up faults then there is reason to believe the ecu is working correctly. You could also say that the ecu working but is corrupted. I'll explain:

When i had my RS6 mapped by my local, and experienced tuner the car was fine for about 1000 miles. Then out of the blue the car went into limp mode. Luckily i had a the laptop based VAGCOM diagnostics / maintenance package and could self assess the issue. The engine ecu had been mapped to improve various parameters as i had instructed. However, the gearbox TCU needs to be remapped also. This was done, but with a generic remap that allowed a delimit and a slight alteration in shift points. The fault codes i were receiveing all said 'checksum error, memory managment'. After alot of research and many dealers and techs telling me i needed a new ecu we eventually came across the problem. The difference in software was the issue.

Because the tcu was not mapped with the same software as the ecu there was a conflict of opinions. The car would go into limp mode after every 13hrs of vehicle operation, no matter the distance travelled. It did my head in for quite a while and i got fed up clearing the faults every few weeks as it involved disconnecting the battery and rebooting the stereo / entertainment system. It was solved by having the software removed, set back to stock and then having exactly the same maps reapplied with related software. No more problems since then.

So, to the dealer it might look like the ecu / dme is wrecked but in actual fact it might be that its fine but needs reprogramming. Have you also considered that the exhaust might be upsetting sensors? ie EGT's etc? Might be giving false readings and knocking the dme into mong mode.

As i said, im no expert in this field but i'd double check the mods / software before the dealer makes a final decision.

Eddie
 

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Hi Guys,
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When I got my header/no car and mid section/no cat install at Dinan with new DME re-flash so the car will not going to limp mode. But the guys over there told me that even with a new program to by-pass the front O2 error message, the DME is smart enough to pick back up error message from time to time. There for if this happen to me, they told me I need to send the DME back them to get a re-flash to soave problem, but there is no guaranty when the message is going to come back. So I hope the info in help full to you and good luck on the fix.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
 

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Sorry to hear the diagnosis being pinned on your mods Mark, unfortunately this is the easier explanation for the dealer technicians being asked to problem solve.

By making your modifications to the car it is now a 'one off' and outside the usual diagnosis processes and procedures that have been tried and tested by BMW. In a standard car, the diagnostics are amazingly effective at finding problem root causes but here some alterations may be giving false positives or negatives in tests that are designed for a standard setup. Since BMW have standard tools and ways of problem solving, their usual way to work out a problem in a standard way is using components that are well tested and understood together.

It might be that a more worldly and experienced technician working at BMW would know a few more tricks that are not documented in the BMW diagnostic software or think 'outside the box' and come to a different conclusion.

It has to be worth getting a second opinion - perhaps DMS could look and see if there are any errors that they have seen before? Perhaps in the 35k miles since changing the exhaust there has been enough of a gradual change in something to take some parameters out of normal ranges and they could be readjusted? Impossible to say really.

Only my thoughts - but it has to be worth a second opinion. I know from a good friend that trades a lot of BMWs that generally his experience of technical expertise at Barons in Hindhead has been much better than Scotthall - Hindhead deal with many more //M cars it seems.

Good luck with the gremlin hunt!

Euan
 

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I would recommend re-flashing to the original software and see if that fixes your problem. I believe an exhaust system is a wearable item which means you have the right to shop for an "open market" part for replacement. Since the dealer now knows your car's software has been changed will most likely result in further engine warranty claims being denied.
 

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OP, you need to understand how the BMW techs diagnose issues. They follow flowcharts that have questions and yes/no routes. A car with mods like yours would not be able to be troubleshooted by those flowcharts. I hope you can see how the techs would not be properly trained/equipped to solve your issues. They are not engineers, they are techs following instructions.
 

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OP, you need to understand how the BMW techs diagnose issues. They follow flowcharts that have questions and yes/no routes. A car with mods like yours would not be able to be troubleshooted by those flowcharts. I hope you can see how the techs would not be properly trained/equipped to solve your issues. They are not engineers, they are techs following instructions.
+1 It can be sometimes frustrating especially if you run into a rare issue, but this is how they go about it.
 

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Did they explain the fault? Was there an error code? Is it your O2 sensors?

It is common and known for the M5 to enter limp mode when under full acceleration due to a bad O2 sensor or sensors.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks all, will wait and get a list of the fault codes on Monday. Then see where this takes me. Dissapointing if all the tech does is follow his flow chart without actually THINKING. Again I fully understand the limp mode due to sensors etc but to just say the ECU needs replacing is is a bit simple I think
 

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Thanks all, will wait and get a list of the fault codes on Monday. Then see where this takes me. Dissapointing if all the tech does is follow his flow chart without actually THINKING. Again I fully understand the limp mode due to sensors etc but to just say the ECU needs replacing is is a bit simple I think
Unfortunately, this is the way the techs are trained to work.

They are trained not to use their brain and only follow the manuals and flow charts.
 

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Well, if you think about it, techs do not have engineering degrees

Unfortunately, this is the way the techs are trained to work.

They are trained not to use their brain and only follow the manuals and flow charts.
They go to some factory training periodically though. The reason for following the flowcharts is that the flowcharts contain the engineers' distilled knowledge about the car. The flowchart is really how the people who built the car would go about diagnosing the issues. I am sure the tech could shoot some educated guesses your way but then you'd be in a different kind of situation where if the problem persists after having replaced a bunch of parts, BMW USA will say, 'hey wait a minute' no car should have all these parts replaced, it's not in our 'flowcharts' and they will probably refuse to reimburse the dealer for parts&labour.

My advise, put back stock ecu programming and see what happens. I think dealers have no problem re-diagnosing the car once it's brought back to stock.
 

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Mark

Would you like to save yourself a $hit load of time and money?

From my experiences and gut instincts, if your car goes into limp mode under WOT, and no genuine faults are thrown... you can bet your arse it's your MAF's! Try cleaning them and give it a shot, you might end up a happy bunny!
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Mark

Would you like to save yourself a $hit load of time and money?

From my experiences and gut instincts, if your car goes into limp mode under WOT, and no genuine faults are thrown... you can bet your arse it's your MAF's! Try cleaning them and give it a shot, you might end up a happy bunny!
Will give it a go!
 

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Any update Mark?

It's all to easy for the dealer to say it's modified and that's the problem. Good luck with it though but I feel you may have an uphill battle on your hands.
 
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