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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi all,

I know there is a lot of information about stroker kit or supercharging a S85, but I want to combined both worlds.
I read a lot about this subject, still I need some additional information before I make the jump.
The plan is to stroke and supercharge the engine in november this year (this means that I'll need to order the kit in the end of august, because long lead time).

Why stroke and supercharging?
Because the stoker gives a lot of torque down low and the supercharger gives more hp up high in the rev range.

Some information about my car.
155.000 km (96.000 miles). New engine at 115.000km (+/-70.000 miles). 2008 model.
Complete custom exhaust (primairy cat delete, high flow secundairy cats, X-pipe en Eisennman muffler), Alpha N tune, stock engine.

My aim for this build is a minimum of 750 crank hp. Without Meth. Anything above is a bonus.


I think I'll go for the 5.8 stroker from PPM. (Stroke 84mm. Bore 94mm)
For the supercharger: I dont know it yet.
I contacted ESS 2 times, but didn't got any response from them. I also contacted Gintani and hope that they will help me out.
I dont know if the ESS 675 -kit is up to the task because it will over rev I think. Maybe il contact Vortech..



My questions:

  • Is the 5.8L ideal for this setup or is it wise(r) to change to another displacement (5.5 or 6.0)?
  • How low do I need to drop the cr? Is 11.5:1 still to high and should I go for 10:1?
  • Is sleeving necessary or should I just bore and hone the block (there is a good shop with al lot of experience with honing an alusil block). If sleeving is necessary, is it than better to go for an 6.0l?
  • Does somebody know where I can get a good tune for this setup?
  • Did someone already tried this setup with success?
When i start this project, I will document everything, so people can learn from this.

Thanks in advance.

Edit:
I forgot to lay out and explaine my choices:

I had 3 options to choose from:
Supercharger
Stroker
Both.

Supercharger:
The price and the hp gain is very good.
But the supercharger will not help the car at low revs. Also the engine uses some oil (I think bad piston rings) and will in time need a rebuild. So putting meer stress in the engine is asking for problems. I could supercharg the engine and wait till the engine **** itself and then build and stroke the engine.

Also I dont think the engine wil be that excitement (I could be wrong).

An Ess kit with install and shipment is less than €12k (675hp kit) . Which is very good value for money.


The stroker
It sounds fantastic. A 6.0L N/A.
But to make some sirious power (650+hp) I need to go all out. That is costly (which I dont have a problem with).


Will cost probably somewere between €32 and €35 all in for around 650chp. (With cams, headwork, eventuri intake and a carbon plenum when available) labor included.

Lucky for me I live in Holland. So a stroker kit from ppm (Australian dollar) is not that much in Euro’s.


Both:
The price for a combo will not exeed a fully stroked engine, but the power increase is a lot more and you can always get some more power with relative eas.
This wil cost about €32K-35K. Labor included.

(Without headwork and cams) wich I think is not necessery when you use a supercharger.





So my first options is stroker and supercharged.
second option is A full stroker.
Last a supercharger and when bad luck comes, than rebuild and stroke it.

All the prices are with labor included and an estimate.

Adil el Yousfi
 

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Won't that make the cylinder walls too weak and susceptible to cracking? Especially under boost?
 
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Discussion Starter #3
Won't that make the cylinder walls too weak and susceptible to cracking? Especially under boost?
That is something I am afraid of. But I didn’t find any information about this.
 

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Gintani supercharger is definitely better built but ESS customer service is far greater. There is a gintani kit for sale in the classifieds
 

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If you are committed sleeve the block, go for 6L. As far a CR I think you may have to drop below 10 and make it up with boost. The harder you press the engine the shorter the lifespan will be. I would guess that after you build it you will not be driving it around every day so that may not matter.

My final piece is the revs, going up to the original 8500 may not be wise or necessary. With a centrifugal supercharger you will likely peak out on HP and torque well before the redline for the engine. Also keep in mine that a centrifugal supercharger robs power at the bottom.

If I am not mistaken the Alpha N can be tuned for whatever your set up is. And for sure this one should be dialed in on a dyno.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
If you are committed sleeve the block, go for 6L. As far a CR I think you may have to drop below 10 and make it up with boost. The harder you press the engine the shorter the lifespan will be. I would guess that after you build it you will not be driving it around every day so that may not matter.

My final piece is the revs, going up to the original 8500 may not be wise or necessary. With a centrifugal supercharger you will likely peak out on HP and torque well before the redline for the engine. Also keep in mine that a centrifugal supercharger robs power at the bottom.

If I am not mistaken the Alpha N can be tuned for whatever your set up is. And for sure this one should be dialed in on a dyno.
Thank You for your answers Sir.

I have to dig some more information about sleeving. If it is save and it can done save, than this might be the route a choose. A stroke of 86mm en a bore of 95mm sounds very good.


I dont mind that the supercharger wil rob some power at the buttom. The stroker wil give the engine more than enough power down low to compensate for that loss.

I’v got Alpha N-tune (Evolve) and wil ask Evolve if they can do a custom tune for me. (As a matter of fact, I just send Evolve an email).

More advise is welcome
 

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You will be able to achieve 700-720hp without a supercharger and it will give you more fun and safer. Here is the path (I assume you will have someone to create your own engine mapping on dyno rather than to use any existing performance ECU tuning):
  • 5.8L stroker kit
  • lightweight flywheel
  • dry sump
  • customize header with bigger pipe diameter, no cat for sure
  • you will need to modify your air intake in order to have enough air flow, but it is not a very big deal
If this is a pure track build project then you can push your power range to higher RPM by using Schrick 292/280 camshaft set, aftermarket intake valve and sprint. I also suggest to do vanos delete. Oh, please remember to change your fuel pump because the factory one wont give you enough fuel flow to achieve proper air/fuel mix at such high RPM.
 

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You will be able to achieve 700-720hp without a supercharger and it will give you more fun and safer. Here is the path (I assume you will have someone to create your own engine mapping on dyno rather than to use any existing performance ECU tuning):
  • 5.8L stroker kit
  • lightweight flywheel
  • dry sump
  • customize header with bigger pipe diameter, no cat for sure
  • you will need to modify your air intake in order to have enough air flow, but it is not a very big deal
If this is a pure track build project then you can push your power range to higher RPM by using Schrick 292/280 camshaft set, aftermarket intake valve and sprint. I also suggest to do vanos delete. Oh, please remember to change your fuel pump because the factory one wont give you enough fuel flow to achieve proper air/fuel mix at such high RPM.
Can you show me an example of 700-720hp N/A S85???
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
And u might as well check their stroker kit price, add dry sump kit for 9k and u are 34$ in parts with out cams and labor and block
The stroker is not that expensive when you convert it to Euro.
The 5.8 kit kost $14500 thats less than €9000.
The 6.0 is $17.000 around €11.000.

They also sell complete 5.8, 6.0 and 6.3L engines (prices are between €31K and €43K). But You need to send your own engine to them.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
You will be able to achieve 700-720hp without a supercharger and it will give you more fun and safer. Here is the path (I assume you will have someone to create your own engine mapping on dyno rather than to use any existing performance ECU tuning):
  • 5.8L stroker kit
  • lightweight flywheel
  • dry sump
  • customize header with bigger pipe diameter, no cat for sure
  • you will need to modify your air intake in order to have enough air flow, but it is not a very big deal
If this is a pure track build project then you can push your power range to higher RPM by using Schrick 292/280 camshaft set, aftermarket intake valve and sprint. I also suggest to do vanos delete. Oh, please remember to change your fuel pump because the factory one wont give you enough fuel flow to achieve proper air/fuel mix at such high RPM.
Why not 6.0 instead of 5.8?
 

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Why not 6.0 instead of 5.8?
I have no experience with 6.0 stroker because my project is 5.8L so I can not comment on this one. For my understanding, 94mm is the maximum I would feel comfortable to go without risking engine to explode. To get 6.0L, you probably will need to increase the stroke, I doubt it will increase the engine output accordingly. Your piston speed will go up and you may lose power at higher RPM. For NA engine, you really want to push your output curve all the way to red line without drop, that's the fun of this engine.

5.8 stroker will make you to about 620-640hp, a custom header and will increase 30-40hp. The dry sump and vanos delete each can add 20hp, both will push engine output to higher RPM, you will lose hp below 4000rpm due to vanos delete. The lightweight flywheel may contribute another 5-10hp, I did not do lightweight flywheel now because my car is still on SMG and that wont work on stock SMG control software, I dont want to spend time researching SMG tuning as my goal is DCT so it wont be a problem if you have 6 speed manual. The camshaft will not gain any horsepower for you, it will shift engine peak output curve to higher RPM. Both vanos delete and 292/280 camshaft are really for track build, not good for daily drive, you will lose power below 4000rpm, maybe even 5000rpm.

The total cost of this build is over $60,000 including tuning. You really need to think about if it worth the money because you can easily push to the same horsepower with much less money on a S55 engine, maybe 800hp+. To spend that much on a S85 engine is not financially wise unless this engine really means something to you. The fun part for me is to have my own 700hp naturally aspirated V10 engine with linear power curve all the way up to 8000RPM+ and it sounds amazing. Also the parts on E60/E63 that I may need to change regularly are pretty cheap, I can abuse the car and have a lot of fun on the track without worrying about my pocket.
 

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I hope you do complete this build, so I can read about it. But, there are way cheaper platforms to do this on. I think all of us can agree the 2JZ for one.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
I have no experience with 6.0 stroker because my project is 5.8L so I can not comment on this one. For my understanding, 94mm is the maximum I would feel comfortable to go without risking engine to explode. To get 6.0L, you probably will need to increase the stroke, I doubt it will increase the engine output accordingly. Your piston speed will go up and you may lose power at higher RPM. For NA engine, you really want to push your output curve all the way to red line without drop, that's the fun of this engine.

5.8 stroker will make you to about 620-640hp, a custom header and will increase 30-40hp. The dry sump and vanos delete each can add 20hp, both will push engine output to higher RPM, you will lose hp below 4000rpm due to vanos delete. The lightweight flywheel may contribute another 5-10hp, I did not do lightweight flywheel now because my car is still on SMG and that wont work on stock SMG control software, I dont want to spend time researching SMG tuning as my goal is DCT so it wont be a problem if you have 6 speed manual. The camshaft will not gain any horsepower for you, it will shift engine peak output curve to higher RPM. Both vanos delete and 292/280 camshaft are really for track build, not good for daily drive, you will lose power below 4000rpm, maybe even 5000rpm.

The total cost of this build is over $60,000 including tuning. You really need to think about if it worth the money because you can easily push to the same horsepower with much less money on a S55 engine, maybe 800hp+. To spend that much on a S85 engine is not financially wise unless this engine really means something to you. The fun part for me is to have my own 700hp naturally aspirated V10 engine with linear power curve all the way up to 8000RPM+ and it sounds amazing. Also the parts on E60/E63 that I may need to change regularly are pretty cheap, I can abuse the car and have a lot of fun on the track without worrying about my pocket.
Thank you for sharing your experience. You got a very nice setup.

My car is meant for the streets (and only a few times a month for some fun driving), so some torque down low is nice (hence the big stroke).

For now think this is the way to go for me (big picture):
  • Stroker 5.8 or 6.0L kit from PPM. lowering the CR to 10:1 (cost €9-€12K)
  • Bore and sleeve the engine (bore 94mm) (Estimate cost 4K)
  • Install a supercharger (stil not sure which one) (Estimate, including shipping: €11K)
  • Cutsome tune (This I totally dont know. €2K maybe?)
  • The valves and springs wil stay original, exept when they are in less than optimal shape. In that case I will change them with some performance valves and springs.
  • Cams wil stay the same, unless I need to change the valves and springs.
  • No dry sump system and no vanos delete (to much work for not that much power extra).
The install of the supercharger and the build of th engine/stroker will be done by an experience BMW specialist. He got a lot of experience with supercharging and (re)building an engine (S85/S62/S65,S54 etc,) and he also build my S62 a few years back.
The engine boring will be done by another company which does some business with the BMW specialist. I trust them very well.
We will probably use Darton sleeves.
The superschrager we are still not sure about. Probably ESS. To bad G-power dont sell there Bi-superchargers for the S85 platform anymore.


I think that when I dont need to do the heads/valves/cams, etc of the engine, then it wil probably cost between €36K and €40K. When the heads need to be done, then I can easily add €7-8K.
I know that in such a build the cost can easily add up. I am no stranger to that and I can handle it.


If I forgot something or I did something terribly wrong, please let me know.
But I think this is the big picture.

By the end of august I will discuss this for the last time with the BMW specialist and when he aproves this and thinks it wil work, then we will order all the stuff we need. By november I think we can then start with the build.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
I hope you do complete this build, so I can read about it. But, there are way cheaper platforms to do this on. I think all of us can agree the 2JZ for one.
I'll do my best!

true, 2Jz is way cheaper to extract more power, but Its not a V10;).
 
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