[ecain63]

Well it looks like i made some headway with regard to the Judder issue that plagues us in the M5/M6 world. Read here for the full story.

E61 Clutch Judder repair result (at last)

Eddie

 

[potassium]

Thanks Eddie

I will have a proper read over the weekend as I feel "judder" on morning starts in 2nd and after long motorway cruises but it is intermittent and normally I dont notice - after a warm up - will read anyway as my warranty runs out soon and I wont be able to renew it now I am over 100k (I think)

 

[BM850CSi]

JUdder

Hi Eddie
Ive just bought a 2008 M5 Tourer
and Im not happy with the gear change
would u mind very much giving me a ring
I would really appreciate it
just to talk thru what its doing
I am really down about this and thinking of offlaoding the M5 and sticking to the 850Csi's
Jeff
07766341601

 

[ecain63]

^^^ Good to speak to you mate. Sounds like you just need to play with the settings. The //M isnt really suited to London commuting so maybe find your perfect combo out on the open road.

Eddie

 

[abbaszb]

<HR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff; COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1> <!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->
<!-- google_ad_section_start -->i have owned the beast for 3 months now (amazing car) and have experienced the infamous judder and 'rear end assist' throughtout my ownership. the judder is very slight and only when accelerating at moderate speed in 1st or 2nd gear. I got into the habit of combating the 'rear end assist' feature by tapping on the brake before pull off.

anyhow even though both issues were more of an annoyance and not showing signs of getting progressively worse, i decided to have it checked out by the local dealer under my comprehensive extended warranty.
No prizes for guessing the faults were down to a failed guide bush and release bearing. Now i am aware of the lubrication issue associated with this component but what surprised me was the technicians feedback on the extent of the damage stating "the bearing and bush had both collapsed".. the vehicle has only done 50k miles and drives perfectly aside from these two problems.

Question is would the damaged bush/bearing have caused damage to the clutch/fly and whether or not i should kick up a fuss and try to have it checked/replaced also??.. The technician has said he cannot assess the wear on the clutch/fly without having to take it apart which would be at my cost. He also believes the bush/bearing would have not caused excessive wear on the clutch.

your thoughts are much appreciated?

Thanks

 

[ecain63]

Hi mate,

Firstly, yes the collapsed bush / bearing will have accelerated the wear on the fly and clutch. Fact!! Secondly, how did they diagnose the failed parts without checking out the clutch and fly? Thirdly, if the bush and bearing were deemed to be faulty then BMW are directed to change the clutch and fly at the same time, as per the book.

Sounds fishy to me mate. Its no more labour to change the clutch and fly as it is to shange the bearing and bush. The box was already out!!

Eddie

<HR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff; COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->
<!-- google_ad_section_start -->i have owned the beast for 3 months now (amazing car) and have experienced the infamous judder and 'rear end assist' throughtout my ownership. the judder is very slight and only when accelerating at moderate speed in 1st or 2nd gear. I got into the habit of combating the 'rear end assist' feature by tapping on the brake before pull off.

anyhow even though both issues were more of an annoyance and not showing signs of getting progressively worse, i decided to have it checked out by the local dealer under my comprehensive extended warranty.
No prizes for guessing the faults were down to a failed guide bush and release bearing. Now i am aware of the lubrication issue associated with this component but what surprised me was the technicians feedback on the extent of the damage stating "the bearing and bush had both collapsed".. the vehicle has only done 50k miles and drives perfectly aside from these two problems.

Question is would the damaged bush/bearing have caused damage to the clutch/fly and whether or not i should kick up a fuss and try to have it checked/replaced also??.. The technician has said he cannot assess the wear on the clutch/fly without having to take it apart which would be at my cost. He also believes the bush/bearing would have not caused excessive wear on the clutch.

your thoughts are much appreciated?

Thanks

 

[abbaszb]

They diagnosed the bearing/bush by taking off the gearbox (and is currently sat at the dealership awaiting bush and bearing to be delivered).. when i asked to have the clutch/fly checked the technician said he cannot see any damage to the forks/teeth connecting to the clutch/fly and therefore does not believe any damage has been caused. also because the car does not miss or slip in any gear he believes the clutch is fine. he cannot assess the true extent of damage/wear to the clutch without having to take the clutch/fly apart which would be at my cost.

"if the bush and bearing were deemed to be faulty then BMW are directed to change the clutch and fly at the same time, as per the book"... If this is so, then i will definitely push to have the clutch and fly replaced also. Where did you hear this drivective? is there any proof/evidence you can provide that i can approach my dealership/warranty services with on this?

Thanks you for your assitance here Eddie. Much appreciated.

 

[ecain63]

They diagnosed the bearing/bush by taking off the gearbox (and is currently sat at the dealership awaiting bush and bearing to be delivered).. when i asked to have the clutch/fly checked the technician said he cannot see any damage to the forks/teeth connecting to the clutch/fly and therefore does not believe any damage has been caused. also because the car does not miss or slip in any gear he believes the clutch is fine. he cannot assess the true extent of damage/wear to the clutch without having to take the clutch/fly apart which would be at my cost.

"if the bush and bearing were deemed to be faulty then BMW are directed to change the clutch and fly at the same time, as per the book"... If this is so, then i will definitely push to have the clutch and fly replaced also. Where did you hear this drivective? is there any proof/evidence you can provide that i can approach my dealership/warranty services with on this?

Thanks you for your assitance here Eddie. Much appreciated.

I was told by my dealer that if the guide bush / bearing were at fault then they had to change all the parts inc clutch, flywheel etc. There was no way around this as the computer system has set channels to follow, a bit like a flow chart. To get the difinitive answer your best bet is to phone BMWUK on 0800325600, they will help you out im sure.

The question you should be asking your dealer is, 'how can they prove it hasnt affected the flywheel or clutch?'. If they cannot prove it then they need to fit a new one. You need to start thinking with a mechanical mind too, if the bearing and bush are sticky / seized then it doesnt take a scientist to work out that its going to affect the clutch and fly. Why are they maiking such a big deal out of removing the clutch to check it for wear? Its a 10 minute job if the box is already out!! Just tell them to get on with it or you are going to a different dealer.

Is the bush and bearing being changed under warranty? If so there should be no issue as far as checking the fly and clutch. The labour is all covered by the warranty as the time required to do a bush change is the same as is stated for a clutch change - 4.5hrs.

Have you read my other threads? Have you seen the pictures of where things are in the gearbox? Its really easy to see its no big deal for them to check the clutch. It annoys me to think you are letting them treat you like this. Its not like they are paying for the job, the more work they get from it the better as BMW will pay the bills.

The thing with the clutch on these cars is that they are self adjusting so you do not get slippage like you would on a regular car. The clutch will work fine until its completely dead. Then it'll self destruct. Its really that simple. The fact that its not slipping only means its still useable, not that its not worn. You do however get slippage when pulling away, caused by the sticky bearing and bush. This will accelerate the wear on the clutch facings and the fly, but probably wont cause slippage elsewhere.

In all honesty i think you need to be harder on these guys. Give me a bell on 07854615512 if you need any more advice as i wont be on the net til later tonight.

Eddie

 

[abbaszb]

I was told by my dealer that if the guide bush / bearing were at fault then they had to change all the parts inc clutch, flywheel etc. There was no way around this as the computer system has set channels to follow, a bit like a flow chart. To get the difinitive answer your best bet is to phone BMWUK on 0800325600, they will help you out im sure.

The question you should be asking your dealer is, 'how can they prove it hasnt affected the flywheel or clutch?'. If they cannot prove it then they need to fit a new one. You need to start thinking with a mechanical mind too, if the bearing and bush are sticky / seized then it doesnt take a scientist to work out that its going to affect the clutch and fly. Why are they maiking such a big deal out of removing the clutch to check it for wear? Its a 10 minute job if the box is already out!! Just tell them to get on with it or you are going to a different dealer.

Is the bush and bearing being changed under warranty? If so there should be no issue as far as checking the fly and clutch. The labour is all covered by the warranty as the time required to do a bush change is the same as is stated for a clutch change - 4.5hrs.

Have you read my other threads? Have you seen the pictures of where things are in the gearbox? Its really easy to see its no big deal for them to check the clutch. It annoys me to think you are letting them treat you like this. Its not like they are paying for the job, the more work they get from it the better as BMW will pay the bills.

The thing with the clutch on these cars is that they are self adjusting so you do not get slippage like you would on a regular car. The clutch will work fine until its completely dead. Then it'll self destruct. Its really that simple. The fact that its not slipping only means its still useable, not that its not worn. You do however get slippage when pulling away, caused by the sticky bearing and bush. This will accelerate the wear on the clutch facings and the fly, but probably wont cause slippage elsewhere.

In all honesty i think you need to be harder on these guys. Give me a bell on 07854615512 if you need any more advice as i wont be on the net til later tonight.

Eddie

Yes I have read your previous posts and can see your persistence and determination paid off. the issue i have is that the dealer says they cannot take the clutch/fly off without having seen any damage on the external forks//teeth which all apear fine and there was no slippage when accelerating. they also claim that the judder was caused by the bearing/bush sticking and hence no excessive wear would have been caused on the clutch.. i appreciate this could all be BS but how can i argue back against their 'technical' point of view.

They also claim if they take out the clutch/fly and seperate the twin plates to see damage, then it will be near enough impossible to put them back in as they were (i.e would have to be replaced) and cost of replacement would be down to me if they cannot prove excessive wear or damage. again this could all be BS.

i have raised this with BMW customer services and advised of your scenario and that Scothall belive the Clutch/fly should also be replaced with the bearing/bush as damage may have been caused. they have agreed to speak to Scotthall in Southampton and do abit of digging. waiting to hear back.

yes, the bush/bearings are being replaced under extended warranty.

Thanks

 

[markie]

subbed

 

[imycool]

Subscribed

 

[AngelSlayer]

eddie, can you describe what the judder feels like in practice? I have this rubberband, stop go stop go, bunnyhopping effect going on sometimes after cold start in 1st gear. Is that the judder?

 

[ecain63]

^^^^^ No, that 'bunnyhop' feeling is completely normal when the car is cold. I normally let the car run at idle for 90 seconds before pulling off, solves the problem. The judder feels like the clutch isnt quite meeting the flywheel face and the whole thing feels like its wobbling. Its very hard to describe but if you imagine your hands are the clutch face and the flywheel face with the flywheel hand spinning around its like you are clapping them together. Thats my best shot at describing judder.

Eddie

 

[markie]

eddie, can you describe what the judder feels like in practice? I have this rubberband, stop go stop go, bunnyhopping effect going on sometimes after cold start in 1st gear. Is that the judder?

Mine does this and has recently started doing it when warm. Strangely it does work fine if you stick it in 'M' mode or put the gear change thing up to 4-5.

 

[AngelSlayer]

^^^^^ No, that 'bunnyhop' feeling is completely normal when the car is cold. I normally let the car run at idle for 90 seconds before pulling off, solves the problem. The judder feels like the clutch isnt quite meeting the flywheel face and the whole thing feels like its wobbling. Its very hard to describe but if you imagine your hands are the clutch face and the flywheel face with the clutch hand spinning around its like you are clapping them together. Thats my best shot at describing judder.

Eddie

Thanks Eddie.

 

[Ex-XFR]

Thank you Eddie!

Heartfelt thanks to Eddie Cain for his work on this bush/bearing/clutch judder issue. I had just bought a 2007 E60 M5 with 38,000 miles and got this judder after running hot for a while. I was able to use this work to point the dealer in the right direction and I got a whole new clutch, flywheel etc with no charge. £3000 worth... I can upload the invoice that shows the steps the tech went throug if anyone is interested?

 

[Ex-XFR]

PS - This was where Eddie ultimately posted the solution.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=181&t=974742&mid=0&i=0&nmt=E61+Clutch+Judder+repair+result+%28at+last%29&mid=0

 

[Steveb34]

uk clutch, 8 days out of warranty

hi there guys
sorry to resurect an old post, but didnt want to be told off for raising a new one.

My car had a replacement clutch under warranty 2 years and 8 days ago! :sad2: ouich
Ive had the dreaded clutch judder for a few weeks now and finally got round to trying it again this wekend when the snow went.
I wish id rung the day i noticed it, then id of been inside the 2 yar parts warranty. Now ive got to go to the dealer, get a diagnostic and then wait for them to contact BMW with their version of what they think is wrong.
To be fair, the dealer (Sytner BMW Leicester) were helpful on the phone, but lets see what comes from them next week
I cant believe its 8 days out of warranty, but if its the same guide bush and bearing that it originally had replaced 2 yrs ago, then ill argue that an item failing on the limit of the 2 yr warranty isnt really acceptable, and its only done 20k since the replacement.
with them originally replacing the clutch under their original warranty, ill also point ouit that this shouldnt happen so soon again........
ill let you guys know how it works out.


also got another pair of potions.

1. i can get a local indy to strip the clutch and ONLY replace the guide bush and bearing. This would be about £300 all in and would prove to me if this cures it.
2. bite the bullet, and when the indy strips it and reviews any further damage, then replace the flywheel and clutch.
im not tight, but i dont want to replace a fly/clutch if they are only 50% worn, might be a false economy to some, but a fix for £300 for maybe the next 20 is a worthwhile gamble i think.

P.S. Ive found a Sachs clutch and LUX flyfor a total of £804 all inc!

 

[Smeagol]

How did I miss this?

 

[jcolley]

hi there guys
sorry to resurect an old post, but didnt want to be told off for raising a new one.

My car had a replacement clutch under warranty 2 years and 8 days ago! :sad2: ouich
Ive had the dreaded clutch judder for a few weeks now and finally got round to trying it again this wekend when the snow went.
I wish id rung the day i noticed it, then id of been inside the 2 yar parts warranty. Now ive got to go to the dealer, get a diagnostic and then wait for them to contact BMW with their version of what they think is wrong.
To be fair, the dealer (Sytner BMW Leicester) were helpful on the phone, but lets see what comes from them next week
I cant believe its 8 days out of warranty, but if its the same guide bush and bearing that it originally had replaced 2 yrs ago, then ill argue that an item failing on the limit of the 2 yr warranty isnt really acceptable, and its only done 20k since the replacement.
with them originally replacing the clutch under their original warranty, ill also point ouit that this shouldnt happen so soon again........
ill let you guys know how it works out.


also got another pair of potions.

1. i can get a local indy to strip the clutch and ONLY replace the guide bush and bearing. This would be about £300 all in and would prove to me if this cures it.
2. bite the bullet, and when the indy strips it and reviews any further damage, then replace the flywheel and clutch.
im not tight, but i dont want to replace a fly/clutch if they are only 50% worn, might be a false economy to some, but a fix for £300 for maybe the next 20 is a worthwhile gamble i think.

P.S. Ive found a Sachs clutch and LUX flyfor a total of £804 all inc!

Make an appointment with your indy or dealer to have them perform the SMG adaptation. Drive your car briskly to get the transmission up to temperature and take it to them. The key is performing the adaptation on a warm SMG, not cold. I would be willing to be that it will smooth out much of what you are feeling. If not, then you are only out 1 hour of labor fees and the adaptation will show any faults anyway.

If your brand new clutch only lasted two years, they installed it wrong or adapted it wrong. Either that or you drive 30,000 miles a year. :grinyes: