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Discussion Starter #1
Need some help narrowing down a weird problem that's cropped up over the last couple of weeks. Pre-changes had OEM wheel/tire setup with StopTech BBK. Ran great for probably a thousand miles after BBK install. Recently changed out the OEM wheels for a set of VMR's and a set of summer tires. Still stock springs etc. Rears bumped up to 10" wheels with 305's. On the front, I did go up an inch on the wheel but kept the tire size at the OEM spec. All still 19" diameter though. Also added a 10mm spacer on the front due to the change in off-sets.

This is where it gets weird. Seemed to run great for several hundred miles. But over the last week or two I've started to pick up some weird vibrations... hard to explain as I'm constantly trying to decide if it's the road surface or something gone wrong with my wheel balance. (Road Force balanced by the way). Between 50mph and 70mph I'll get a slight vibration. Not all the time however but noticeable in the steering wheel. And when I'm breaking I'll get a notable vibration too with an audible bump bump bump sound with the vibration as I'm coming to a stop - it's not at the same "frequency" as the steering wheel vibration... much slower and rhythmic but my passenger yesterday felt and heard it too. The best way to explain that breaking noise/feel is I almost thought I had a carbon build up spot on my rotor and was feeling and hearing it as it rotated past the pads but pretty sure the wheel is rotating faster than the thump but that sort of illustrates what it's like. The last bit of weirdness here is I also noticed some audible rubbing in the front on tight cornering in a parking lot so I looked in the wheel well yesterday to find that the liner has completely rubbed through on the drivers side and the washer reservoir is exposed!

So my mind has been all over the place. Here are some of my thoughts:
1) repeat the break-in procedure on the brakes to burn off any carbon to see if that's an isolated issue associated with the braking sound/feel
2) validate torque settings on wheels to make sure nothing weird is off on the torque (set to 100ftlb at the installer)
3) have wheels and tires re-checked to make sure there wasn't a weight dropped at some point causing a balance issue.
4) totally baffled on the liner being rubbed through since I kept the same wheel diameter and OEM size tire on the front with stock shocks. I did bump the offsets out on the OEM wheels by 12mm and the new ones by 10mm but that's a common setup on our cars and haven't read others with that problem.
5) change front tire to a lower profile series (just bought the PSS's so this one would sting a bit)

Sort of scratching my head on this one. Thoughts??
 

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Need some help narrowing down a weird problem that's cropped up over the last couple of weeks. Pre-changes had OEM wheel/tire setup with StopTech BBK. Ran great for probably a thousand miles after BBK install. Recently changed out the OEM wheels for a set of VMR's and a set of summer tires. Still stock springs etc. Rears bumped up to 10" wheels with 305's. On the front, I did go up an inch on the wheel but kept the tire size at the OEM spec. All still 19" diameter though. Also added a 10mm spacer on the front due to the change in off-sets.

This is where it gets weird. Seemed to run great for several hundred miles. But over the last week or two I've started to pick up some weird vibrations... hard to explain as I'm constantly trying to decide if it's the road surface or something gone wrong with my wheel balance. (Road Force balanced by the way). Between 50mph and 70mph I'll get a slight vibration. Not all the time however but noticeable in the steering wheel. And when I'm breaking I'll get a notable vibration too with an audible bump bump bump sound with the vibration as I'm coming to a stop - it's not at the same "frequency" as the steering wheel vibration... much slower and rhythmic but my passenger yesterday felt and heard it too. The best way to explain that breaking noise/feel is I almost thought I had a carbon build up spot on my rotor and was feeling and hearing it as it rotated past the pads but pretty sure the wheel is rotating faster than the thump but that sort of illustrates what it's like. The last bit of weirdness here is I also noticed some audible rubbing in the front on tight cornering in a parking lot so I looked in the wheel well yesterday to find that the liner has completely rubbed through on the drivers side and the washer reservoir is exposed!

So my mind has been all over the place. Here are some of my thoughts:
1) repeat the break-in procedure on the brakes to burn off any carbon to see if that's an isolated issue associated with the braking sound/feel
2) validate torque settings on wheels to make sure nothing weird is off on the torque (set to 100ftlb at the installer)
3) have wheels and tires re-checked to make sure there wasn't a weight dropped at some point causing a balance issue.
4) totally baffled on the liner being rubbed through since I kept the same wheel diameter and OEM size tire on the front with stock shocks. I did bump the offsets out on the OEM wheels by 12mm and the new ones by 10mm but that's a common setup on our cars and haven't read others with that problem.
5) change front tire to a lower profile series (just bought the PSS's so this one would sting a bit)

Sort of scratching my head on this one. Thoughts??
VMR front = 19X9.5 ET? is this also 12? Then you added 10MM spacer, did you also install hub centric rings?

Stock is 19X8.5 ET:12
 

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Discussion Starter #3
VMR front = 19X9.5 ET? is this also 12? Then you added 10MM spacer, did you also install hub centric rings?

Stock is 19X8.5 ET:12

Correct I bumped up to 19x9.5 et 22 and used Michelin PSS 255/40's with a 10mm spacer.

OEM was running Michelin as3 with 12mm spacer.

I'd imagine a little but if clearance lost stretching the 254/40's across the 9.5" wheel as opposed to the 8.5" wheel but would expect OEM clearance to be that tight.
 

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Correct I bumped up to 19x9.5 et 22 and used Michelin PSS 255/40's with a 10mm spacer.

OEM was running Michelin as3 with 12mm spacer.

I'd imagine a little but if clearance lost stretching the 254/40's across the 9.5" wheel as opposed to the 8.5" wheel but would expect OEM clearance to be that tight.
Hope others will chime in.

My setup is:

20X9 ET22 > Center Bore 74.1 > H&R 20MM spacer > hub centric rings. Tires are also 255's (PZEROs) on Eibach springs. No rubbing.

Vibration - I don't know your center bore but you may need the hub centric rings if the wheel balance is not the issue.

Rubbing - Not sure exactly where the washer reservoir is. Is it towards the outer fender? Top of the tire? Inner are towards the shocks?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks, Ignant. Yeah I'd think you'd have a problem if I'm having a problem. Damn...

The reservoir and pump is right at the bottom of the front bumper... so basically behind the lower brake vent on the bumper. To get access to the pump you pop the bottom two screws on the wheel well liner and it's right there. Basically between the wheel and the bottom of the bumper if that helps.

So right now I have a big hole that's worn through. Probably not hurting anything short term but I imagine it's not so good to have the pump exposed to the elements on a rainy day. Definitely before the snow comes.

The spacer is Macht Schnell which I'm nearly certain was hub-centric so shouldn't be a problem there.
 

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Take off the spacers, and see how that is.. Sometimes spacers as good as they are, might not be installed 100% and cause some issues.

On another note, when i first got my M5 my front tires were rubbing on the plastic fender lining in the front at low speeds.. Once i changed my diff oil, which allowed more slip, that was cured.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Take off the spacers, and see how that is.. Sometimes spacers as good as they are, might not be installed 100% and cause some issues.

On another note, when i first got my M5 my front tires were rubbing on the plastic fender lining in the front at low speeds.. Once i changed my diff oil, which allowed more slip, that was cured.
That's a great idea. As long as I don't need them for clearance of the suspension.

Question, how did rear differential fluid make a change on rubbing of the front fender? I had the diff noise in the past and did circles in the parking lot :) But not sure how that translates to front wheel rubbing.
 

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That's a great idea. As long as I don't need them for clearance of the suspension.

Question, how did rear differential fluid make a change on rubbing of the front fender? I had the diff noise in the past and did circles in the parking lot :) But not sure how that translates to front wheel rubbing.

I believe the diff locks and causes a push type situation at low speeds when turning, as in my situation. The locking diff Pushes the front of the car, and causes the rubbing of the front wheel on the fender lining, as i saw the rub marks on the lining.

Once i changed to the fluid with the additive and did the 10 circles in each direction, the fender lining rubbing at low speeds was gone! The fluid allowed more slip and this translated into easier turning at low speeds with less push. Fender liners with no more marks :)

This is the service bullentin on the issue: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...gIGoCw&usg=AFQjCNEqD31pM_sOCXl1KrbcBiVh6ykTug
 

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Thanks, Ignant. Yeah I'd think you'd have a problem if I'm having a problem. Damn...

The reservoir and pump is right at the bottom of the front bumper... so basically behind the lower brake vent on the bumper. To get access to the pump you pop the bottom two screws on the wheel well liner and it's right there. Basically between the wheel and the bottom of the bumper if that helps.

So right now I have a big hole that's worn through. Probably not hurting anything short term but I imagine it's not so good to have the pump exposed to the elements on a rainy day. Definitely before the snow comes.

The spacer is Macht Schnell which I'm nearly certain was hub-centric so shouldn't be a problem there.
I had this problem for a year before a shop finally figured it out. Hub-centric spacers are different than hub-centric rings. Hub-centric spacers are designed (i believe) with a lip on them that the wheel sits on, just as it would if you were mounting the wheel directly to the hub. A hub centric ring is designed to change the size of the bore. In my case with my wheels, while I had hub centric spacer, the wheel bore was 74mm while the hub centric spacer matched the bmw stock size of 72.6. All I needed was a ring like this (http://www.amazon.com/AccuWheel-ACH...8&sr=8-1&keywords=hub+centric+ring+74+to+72.6) and all the issues went away.

So... double check that the wheel bore of the VMRs are 72.6 and not another size. If they are correct (DONT ASSUME!!!!) then move on. If they are not, then get rings. Easy and cheap.

You could also just put back on your stock wheels and see if the issue persists. Macht Schnell are good spacers, I doubt they're the cause of any issue.
 

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This is my understanding as well.

You need hub centric spacers and 10mm don't work for BMWs. The minimum you can use is a 12mm hub centric spacer.



I had this problem for a year before a shop finally figured it out. Hub-centric spacers are different than hub-centric rings. Hub-centric spacers are designed (i believe) with a lip on them that the wheel sits on, just as it would if you were mounting the wheel directly to the hub. A hub centric ring is designed to change the size of the bore. In my case with my wheels, while I had hub centric spacer, the wheel bore was 74mm while the hub centric spacer matched the bmw stock size of 72.6. All I needed was a ring like this (http://www.amazon.com/AccuWheel-ACH...8&sr=8-1&keywords=hub+centric+ring+74+to+72.6) and all the issues went away.

So... double check that the wheel bore of the VMRs are 72.6 and not another size. If they are correct (DONT ASSUME!!!!) then move on. If they are not, then get rings. Easy and cheap.

You could also just put back on your stock wheels and see if the issue persists. Macht Schnell are good spacers, I doubt they're the cause of any issue.
 

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The below is good information on spacers from TMS.

BMW Wheel Spacers Encyclopedia
From this page -

10mm Fitment Notes You must be very careful when fitting 10mm spacers to any BMW. Since the depth of the hubcentric lip will vary, you risk bottoming out of the spacer before it sits flush with the hub. This will leave a gap between the spacer and the hub, seriously compromising the strength of the spacer. The lip on the car must be shaved down so the 10mm spacer will fit flush on the rotor hat.
That could be part of the issue as well. If you have 72.6 wheels, then it could be that the 10mm spacer isn't mounting correctly.
 

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It has been my experience that you can't run hubcentric rings on a BMW without some vibration. Same applies to cheap wheels. The car is just too sensitive. You need a high end wheel with the proper hub bore balanced properly otherwise you get viabrations at certain speeds. Also, when I added 12mm spacers to my stock wheel setup, I also got a slight rub on the front fender liners.


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Discussion Starter #15
That could be part of the issue as well. If you have 72.6 wheels, then it could be that the 10mm spacer isn't mounting correctly.
Wow, this is great information. Thanks guys. I need to see if I can figure this out... I have my older 12's that I can test with as they worked well. I've got a StopTech BBK so the hats may be a little thinner than stock.

It has been my experience that you can't run hubcentric rings on a BMW without some vibration. Same applies to cheap wheels. The car is just too sensitive. You need a high end wheel with the proper hub bore balanced properly otherwise you get viabrations at certain speeds. Also, when I added 12mm spacers to my stock wheel setup, I also got a slight rub on the front fender liners.
My 12's on OEM wheels were smooth. I did confirm the wheels are 72.6 from the shop although I didn't caliper the wheels to confirm something wonky shipped but the 10mm and hub depth really may be the culprit.
 

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Wow, this is great information. Thanks guys. I need to see if I can figure this out... I have my older 12's that I can test with as they worked well. I've got a StopTech BBK so the hats may be a little thinner than stock.



My 12's on OEM wheels were smooth. I did confirm the wheels are 72.6 from the shop although I didn't caliper the wheels to confirm something wonky shipped but the 10mm and hub depth really may be the culprit.

Yes. The 10mm don't have enough hubcentric ring to mount the wheel properly. This is explained on the Turner motorsports website.


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Discussion Starter #18
Over due for an update on this. I had some suspension work done and everything checked and got a clean bill of health so while swapping my summers for winters I replaced the liner in the front left wheel well. I wanted to have that done before we had a major snow to prevent muck from getting up in the washer fluid pump.

So a few days after, sure as hell I see rub marks on the new liner! Had the car in the shop for an oil cooler so had them again go over everything. The smoking gun was my front spacers. Only 10mm. Took them off and no problems.

So we can't seem to find a reason why so many folks run 10's, 12's, or bigger without a problem and my girl rubs with 10's and 12's. At this point I'm at a loss. Spacers are off so no rubbing but dang it.
 

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I dont see how it could be the spacers. I run 12mm in the front. I am lowered 25mm and I am running a 265/35/19 up front on the stock wheels and I have zero rubbing.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I dont see how it could be the spacers. I run 12mm in the front. I am lowered 25mm and I am running a 265/35/19 up front on the stock wheels and I have zero rubbing.

I know. You and nearly everyone else. We are a bit stumped. No rubbing with them off though. And I'd rather not replace that $200 liner every year :/
 
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