BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums banner

1 - 20 of 34 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
92 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Well I'm going to assume that almost everybody with 60-70K + miles have the timing chain rattle / slap on cold startups. Almost every bmw M62/S62 ive seen has this issue and I believe personally it is there because the timing chain tensioner bolt was not changed in time and the spring was worn out before replacement causing slack in the chain before oil pressure could make up for it when the engine starts. Eventually leading into the guides being chipped away at.

This is kind of like a survey


What im asking is, who has this issue and what are you doing about it ?


Who has done the guide replacement / chain replacement and how was that ? I can't find too much information about it but I have seen some say they have done it...


I feel like this is kind of a big issue but a lot of people don't talk about it ?


For me I had this issue for nearly 100k miles on my previous E38 and it never got worse and I just rolled with it, kept up with the oil etc and everything was fine.

For the E39 I feel like since the past few months it seems to be a bit worse than it was when I bought the car in early 2013.

I want to supercharge the car and of course I don't want to be doing that if my timing chain is on the verge of skipping teeth.



So thats about it, let me know.. if there is a DIY out there that I couldn't find please do link it here.

EDIT:

and of course as im searching for something completely different than this subject I came across this thread
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/367386-m5-turns-14-time-engine-work.html

I'de still like some feedback from everyone who cares to post and isn't shy to admit their car has this going on or not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
222 Posts
Mine has 130 000kms. No significant rattle , only for a few seconds on start up. Preventively I will be changing the tensioner this winter. But if you want to know for sure, pull the oil pan and check for plastic shards. This will tell you if the guides have been chewed up as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
102 Posts
As above probably, all chains will be more noisy than belts just because of the material. I replaced my tensioner just a week ago and has much improved the sound, now theres just abit of vanos on start up and a another tapping sound which im trying to chase down certainly doesn't sound like chain to me though
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,061 Posts
My 2002 is very quiet & has 150K on it. Well maintained by me and prior owners.
My 2001 has some bank 1 rattle on start up, haven't had much time to figure it out yet as I only just started driving the car a month ago. But I suspect it maybe a combination of a sticky vanos solenoid and chain slap. 171K miles
My2000 just has the low oil pressure rattle on initial start for a second or two. 128K miles.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,061 Posts
As above probably, all chains will be more noisy than belts just because of the material. I replaced my tensioner just a week ago and has much improved the sound, now theres just abit of vanos on start up and a another tapping sound which im trying to chase down certainly doesn't sound like chain to me though
I have a tapping sound on bank one intermmitently, only at idle. If I go even 50rpm above idle it goes away? I think it maybe a sticking vanos solenoid? I also get a misfire code for bank 1, cyl & 3, only when driven at high RPM in hot weather. Still slowly getting to that one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,529 Posts
I replaced my original chain tensioner at 190k. I noticed a slight reduction in engine noise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,386 Posts
I'm on 141K miles. I have the accumulator but its the older style one not the later post 9/01 type.

No real drama from cold starts but slight rattle for a couple of seconds on a warm start.

I have the tensioner here but haven't installed it as i am about to replace all of my guides. Not because of untoward noise but because of impending FI install (as you know from another thread LOL!)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,544 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
92 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
thanks for all of your replies, i'm pretty surprised by some of them but im glad you posted to confirm that it is def any issue just about everyone is dealing with and so common that most think its fine and no big deal.

Mine has 130 000kms. No significant rattle , only for a few seconds on start up. Preventively I will be changing the tensioner this winter. But if you want to know for sure, pull the oil pan and check for plastic shards. This will tell you if the guides have been chewed up as well.
the few seconds on startup is what I'm talking about.. when it rattles the whole time then you really have no choice but to do the work immediately.. but my worry is the few seconds on startup could get worse as I assumed it has with me, although like I said above the other car never got worse over the course of 100K additional miles since 70k when it started doing it.

It is just a failed timing chain tensioner. Known weak point. Search and replace. 100 threads on the topic.
oh really? yea thats a cool story bro thanks. too bad the first thing I did when I bought the car was replace that tensioner so this thread isn't about that part specifically. Thanks for reading what I wrote in the OP, not. ouich

As above probably, all chains will be more noisy than belts just because of the material. I replaced my tensioner just a week ago and has much improved the sound, now theres just abit of vanos on start up and a another tapping sound which im trying to chase down certainly doesn't sound like chain to me though
I think that would be a nice explanation but i've heard these motors startup with the guides freshly done and they sound beautiful, so if the rattling wasn't there on cars with <50k miles i doubt the material type is a good answer here.

My car only do rattle at start up due to vanos. No noises from timing chain guides, which I will be assuming that previous owner did the work to it at one point of my car's life.

This may help with this thread.
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/400585-timing-guide-parts-list.html

Thanks for that link I plan on starting this job in a few weeks from now.



I really was going to let it be, I was. Until recently a friend of mind texted me asking if I still had my e38 parts car. Told me that cold start rattling started to be a idle rattling and in the same month his chains let go and the motor was shot.

That's fine with an M62 but I can't be taking that risk with the S62, I don't have that kind of money to be replacing engines because I was lazy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
374 Posts
oh really? yea thats a cool story bro thanks. too bad the first thing I did when I bought the car was replace that tensioner so this thread isn't about that part specifically. Thanks for reading what I wrote in the OP, not. ouich
In fairness you never said you'd changed the tensioner already… :nono:

Chances are if you've changed the tensioner and still have the same startup rattle its not the timing chain but more likely vanos noise from reduced vanos spring tension. The timing chains aren't known to stretch, and if you are unlucky enough to have damaged guides they probably would have fallen apart more by now (you can always drop the lower oil pan and look for any signs of broken plastic).

I changed my tensioner as preventative maintenance and my car is still as rattly as hell on cold start up - on any other car you'd think it was lifters or timing chain but on these it's just vanos. My lower oil pan is clean as a whistle..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
92 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
In fairness you never said you'd changed the tensioner already… :nono:

Chances are if you've changed the tensioner and still have the same startup rattle its not the timing chain but more likely vanos noise from reduced vanos spring tension. The timing chains aren't known to stretch, and if you are unlucky enough to have damaged guides they probably would have fallen apart more by now (you can always drop the lower oil pan and look for any signs of broken plastic).

I changed my tensioner as preventative maintenance and my car is still as rattly as hell on cold start up - on any other car you'd think it was lifters or timing chain but on these it's just vanos. My lower oil pan is clean as a whistle..
Alright, fair enough.

i'll inspect the lower oil pan for plastic before I do anything crazy, I am VERY sure I will find tons of plastic down there.

Look at these guys
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/400585-timing-guide-parts-list-2.html

130k miles and the rails are shot.




Another reason why I don't think its vanos noise is because when you replace this tensioner bolt we are talking about, the very first startup the rattling is SUPER loud because the bolt has to pop out of its clip that holds it back for the first time.


The noise shouldnt change at all if it wasn't the chains at all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
658 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
92 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Yep, here it is http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/202206-vanos-rattle-startup-louder-5.html

Good thread, I bet some of the noise is definitely from the vanos. I am just completely certain that most of the noise is the chain slap for sure.

The reasons being because that same noise can get louder if the lower tensioner bolt is changed and not primed / extended yet for first use.

Replace the one in my M5 at 66k miles as preventative maintenance.


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App

Good, thats what everyone should of done with all of these motors but it seems like a very rare case anybody actually does that until a noise starts.



I'll drop the oil pan and let you know what I find
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
374 Posts
Alright, fair enough.
Another reason why I don't think its vanos noise is because when you replace this tensioner bolt we are talking about, the very first startup the rattling is SUPER loud because the bolt has to pop out of its clip that holds it back for the first time.


The noise shouldnt change at all if it wasn't the chains at all.
That's actually normal - if you change the tensioner the first startup is very noisy while the tensioner pumps up with oil pressure, even if your guides are fine.

My understanding of damaged chain guides is that the noise will be ongoing tapping, not just a rattle at start up. Start up rattle is usually vanos.

But if you do strongly suspect chain guides, I wouldn't be running the motor too much until you drop the oil pan + pull the oil filter to check for debris and possibly pull the valve covers and take a good look down the front of the motor. I think you can see guide tabs that usually break, and probably most of the guide if you can get a borescope type camera in there…

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great preventative maintenance to replace guides anyway (and vanos is apart so you can refurb springs etc at the same time to reduce noise), but not a job for the faint hearted.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,616 Posts
I did my upper tensioner and the start up rattle went away for a few months and it's back again :( It's been driving me nuts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Itrucknyc

·
Registered
Joined
·
92 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
That's actually normal - if you change the tensioner the first startup is very noisy while the tensioner pumps up with oil pressure, even if your guides are fine.

My understanding of damaged chain guides is that the noise will be ongoing tapping, not just a rattle at start up. Start up rattle is usually vanos.

But if you do strongly suspect chain guides, I wouldn't be running the motor too much until you drop the oil pan + pull the oil filter to check for debris and possibly pull the valve covers and take a good look down the front of the motor. I think you can see guide tabs that usually break, and probably most of the guide if you can get a borescope type camera in there…

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great preventative maintenance to replace guides anyway (and vanos is apart so you can refurb springs etc at the same time to reduce noise), but not a job for the faint hearted.

Hey,

Yes it definitely is normal and should happen for the first start you replace that part because the piston is compressed with the clip holding it back, so the chain slaps HEAVILY for a few seconds on the initial start.

The reason for me bringing this up is because if the noise I am talking about is really not the timing chain slap at all, then this noise wouldn't be louder for that first start with that new tensionser bolt.. or at least what I mean is that the SAME noise I am referring to shouldn't be louder.

Because it is louder for the first start when this part is changed I really believe it is the chains that I am thinking of when I hear that noise.


I don't doubt that some of this tapping on startup could be the vanos, maybe it could be all the vanos but I highly doubt this. Someone I knew just blew a motor because of this noise getting worse and worse.


Like you said, should be an ongoing noise... you're right. When its really bad it is an ongoing noise i've heard it in a youtube video somewhere and it was nuts. BUT I think thats only when it gets BAD BAD, like don't drive your car its so bad. I think once oil pressure is up and the noise goes away then its fine, but for those initial moments on startup I believe THAT is what chips away at the timing guides.


I'm not a mechanic or whatever, just what I have been thinking about trying to use common sense and troubleshooting methods.



Also, this job surely isn't for the faint hearted, I understand. I'm still going to do it with the help of a friend I think we should be fine. I know its not the same but I've been in and out all around my S52 motor did the HG a few times myself and timed it etc. I'm sure if we take it easy we can handle this job, unlike me.. he is a mechanic and knows his bmws.
 
1 - 20 of 34 Posts
Top