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All,

I realize this may belong in the E60 area, but before you go yanking it Gustav, hear me out.

I just read the new review in Car & Driver, December 2004 edition of the new M5. It sounds so complicated that all anyone is going to do is put all the favorite settings into memory and never deal with them ever again. So much for all that versatility. There are so many different settings that I don't even think the magazine could figure them all out.

On top of this needless complication, the performance certainly does not indicate a quantum leap over the E39. 0 to 60MPH in 4.7sec.? I believe that is what we can do with 106 less horsepower. It weights over 100 pounds more than the E60 and as we all know can't be had with a manual shifter because those of us who like to shift certainly are too low tech for BMW these days.

With a list price of somewhere in the $90k range, before dealer markup of course, and the "flame" sheet metal one has to wonder if BMW will be disappointed if sales do not meet expectations.

Ok, I am done with my editorial. Let me have it, I can take it.

Mark
 

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Don't knock it until you've tried it :M5rev:
 

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The E60 M5 is clearly a superb machine - by any standard. Its problem arises from having to replace what is already the benchmark of current super saloons - the E39 M5!

Personally I will wait a year or two for all the inevitable bugs and problems to be ironed out, for the inevitable upgrades to be added and, most importantly, for the customers voices to be heard on important options - manual gearbox being the most obvious of these. In addition, once the initial pricing hysteria and demand/supply imbalance has subsided, the normal depreciation hit will set in and these cars will be outstanding value for money - just as my E39 has proven to be.

But then, that is the pleasure of the free market. Some people will just have to have the car immediately. If they love and cherish it, I will be only too happy to take it off their hands in 18 - 24 months time and only pay half what they did for it new!
 

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Martin:
Well said!
My only additonal comment is: UGLY! UGLY!


MartinW said:
The E60 M5 is clearly a superb machine - by any standard. Its problem arises from having to replace what is already the benchmark of current super saloons - the E39 M5!

Personally I will wait a year or two for all the inevitable bugs and problems to be ironed out, for the inevitable upgrades to be added and, most importantly, for the customers voices to be heard on important options - manual gearbox being the most obvious of these. In addition, once the initial pricing hysteria and demand/supply imbalance has subsided, the normal depreciation hit will set in and these cars will be outstanding value for money - just as my E39 has proven to be.

But then, that is the pleasure of the free market. Some people will just have to have the car immediately. If they love and cherish it, I will be only too happy to take it off their hands in 18 - 24 months time and only pay half what they did for it new!
 

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MAH said:
I just read the new review in Car & Driver, December 2004 edition of the new M5. It sounds so complicated that all anyone is going to do is put all the favorite settings into memory and never deal with them ever again. So much for all that versatility. There are so many different settings that I don't even think the magazine could figure them all out.

On top of this needless complication, the performance certainly does not indicate a quantum leap over the E39. 0 to 60MPH in 4.7sec.? I believe that is what we can do with 106 less horsepower. It weights over 100 pounds more than the E60 and as we all know can't be had with a manual shifter because those of us who like to shift certainly are too low tech for BMW these days.

With a list price of somewhere in the $90k range, before dealer markup of course, and the "flame" sheet metal one has to wonder if BMW will be disappointed if sales do not meet expectations.

Mark
Mark-

You stated my case exactly. If you are going to go all high-tech with SMG's and multiple settings and 106 more ponies, you would expect a commensurate increase in performance. Why add all the geegaws and jimcrackery if it isn't going to increase measurable performance? Will the new M be a hoot to drive? Probably. But so is my M5, and it didn't cost 90K. And I can shift gears all by myself!

:noSMG:
 

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Moongate said:
Mark-

You stated my case exactly. If you are going to go all high-tech with SMG's and multiple settings and 106 more ponies, you would expect a commensurate increase in performance. Why add all the geegaws and jimcrackery if it isn't going to increase measurable performance? Will the new M be a hoot to drive? Probably. But so is my M5, and it didn't cost 90K. And I can shift gears all by myself!

:noSMG:
Don´t you think this is an increase in measurable performance:

 

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MartinW said:
The E60 M5 is clearly a superb machine - by any standard. Its problem arises from having to replace what is already the benchmark of current super saloons - the E39 M5!

Personally I will wait a year or two for all the inevitable bugs and problems to be ironed out, for the inevitable upgrades to be added and, most importantly, for the customers voices to be heard on important options - manual gearbox being the most obvious of these. In addition, once the initial pricing hysteria and demand/supply imbalance has subsided, the normal depreciation hit will set in and these cars will be outstanding value for money - just as my E39 has proven to be.

But then, that is the pleasure of the free market. Some people will just have to have the car immediately. If they love and cherish it, I will be only too happy to take it off their hands in 18 - 24 months time and only pay half what they did for it new!
I don't think their car will depreciate 50% in 18 months.

0-60mph times aren't the end all and be-all of acceleration tests. Think of the higher speeds, like 80-155mph. The E60 will be much quicker there, I think. 60mph is just too slow of a speed to go up to and you gotta take into consideration of traction.

I agree though, the E60 M is a pretty good looking car by itself, but when I think of our E39 M5s and how close they are to perfection (in terms of what a modern BMW should look like), the E60, especially in the lesser variants, are just plain hideous. Yuck.

I hate the modern furniture of the E60 interiors, too. What the hell happened to the Driver-centric layout like on our cars, and on all the older Bimmers?
 

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sure the car is going to handle somewhat better and have better performance numbers but my car was 70K as i had few options...the newer edition will be over the 80 mark just to start, not including options..

Its just not cost effective...look at the new 997 vs 996...little price difference but a equal change in performance between those two models vs the change in the m5 models.
 

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From all the early reviews I've read, the e60 M5 will be decidedly faster than the e39, especially at higher speeds. The 4.7 figure quoted for 0-60 on the e60 is thought to be very conservative, whereas that's an optimistic time for the e39. So in terms of raw performance, I don't think it'll be a close contest. But I agree with Mark that there are other issues, equally or more important to some: price, styling, driver involvement. Everyone is going to make their own decision based on what's important to them. Barring some major mfr. defect or recall (opps, I mean "campaign"), I think the new car will be a huge hit.
 

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BMW: "the ultimate marketing machine"

drilled discs on the M5/M3 is the prime example. I bet if the M engineers had had their way, instead of the marketing directors, they would have gone grooved or straightforward discs, in favour of a bigger caliper upgrade from AP or someone....just look at the Works cars BMW race.

I agree with MAH. Too many F1 gimmicks that old school beemer lovers dont want.

IMHO, an old 635csi may not be as quick as the modern beemers, but if from your motoring you like to have a smile put on your face, theres no substitute for one of the "Ultimate Driving Machines" BMW used to build. E30 M3, M6, M5's, CSL's (original one) etc etc. (E39 M5 & E46 M3 are great too!)

Depends what youre after. For me, a faster car is not necessarily best, its all about whether you can face putting the car away at the end of your drive, or whether you go round the block (sideways) one more time :hihi:

I will reserve my opinions, as i did with the new CSL, until i have driven the E60. A manual would help the situation i believe.

anyway, what do i know zzzzz
 

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As other's have noted, i'd bet the e60 M5 will walk away from a stock e39 at higher speeds. The exterior is growing on me, but i'm still not much for the interior. I do like the smg, but i don't know if i'd want to live with one every day, might get boring. I think it's going to be a phenominal performance car, time will tell. The report in the uk's BMW CAR was interesting, it that their test car had a fault, which threw a SES light and "engine fault, reduced power" in the idrive display. The repair was another test car, as the M-Techs at the press intro couldn't figure out what was wrong. I can see that happening a lot, our cars are complicated enough. Maybe in a year or two (after introduction). Then again, for $90kUS, you could buy an e28, e34 AND an e39 M5... I'd personally rather have the variety!
Mike
 

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MAH said:
With a list price of somewhere in the $90k range, before dealer markup of course, and the "flame" sheet metal one has to wonder if BMW will be disappointed if sales do not meet expectations.
The car will sell, there is no doubt about that but you may find that many of the customers will be new to the fold and not existing E39 M5 fanatics.

I for one have gradually warmed up to the E60 although the lack of manual was disapointing until spending some time with an M3 with SMG. I really enjoyed my 2 days with SMG, the only unanswered questions was would I like it that much 18 months down the road. Problem solved, the E39 stays and gets joined by the E60 in 2007. That gives me enough time to figure out how to get LeMans paint on the E60.
 

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MAH said:
I realize this may belong in the E60 area, but before you go yanking it Gustav, hear me out.
After reading Steve Dinan's road test report in this month's Roundel, I have to say I was drooling a bit :) -- what an excellent write up he did.
 

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Exterior is growing on me somewhat, but will likely take a few years before I could actually park it in my driveway.


I'm will certainly be test driving one, but as others have said, will wait a few years and hold out for the manual transmission. Plus I just got my 03, and have no intention of giving it up.

//vic
 

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0-60 is a nice way to measure cars, but i find rolling starts better ie 5 to 60 or better yet 10 to 80 (even thought dont' get tested) it's more practical...AND i have no doubt in the new m5 with that and more.

Versitility is nice, I like some of the settings, to many and it's over kill but to program two of my favs, and flip between um is ok with me...I also liek the smg, so long as they fixed the last gens problems.
 

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To judge this car by a single metric, such as 0-60, or peak HP/TQ, truly seems rather shallow, and misses the essential point of BMW M engineering. This car's greatness lies in its ability to connect and engage the driver, to respond is such a way so as to present the illusion that it is plugged directly into his thoughts. It's not about a single dimension; it's about providing a literally thrilling driving experience.

I haven't driven it, so I cannot (yet) speak from personal experience. However, all accounts from those who have driven this car indicate it has indeed lived up to its billing, and is substantial step forward from its predecessor, the great E39 M5.
 

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Mike0804 said:
To judge this car by a single metric, such as 0-60, or peak HP/TQ, truly seems rather shallow, and misses the essential point of BMW M engineering. This car's greatness lies in its ability to connect and engage the driver, to respond is such a way so as to present the illusion that it is plugged directly into his thoughts. It's not about a single dimension; it's about providing a literally thrilling driving experience.
The engineering I think we all agree is a marvel. However, half (or more) of us think the car looks like ***. :)
 

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I don't believe in the numbers alone. If I did, I would stick with my E39M5. I guess it's the overall package that makes the E60M5 so appealing. It may be a case of misunderstood progress. I for one have not given up my deposit.
 

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SoCalM5,
The styling is controversial, I admit. But you know the 911, especially the previous generations (I've owned two 930 turbos) were not exactly drop dead gorgeous. Porsche lovers like us, of course, think they are beautiful. But their real beauty is in how they drive, agree?
 

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What, other than the new V10 is so great about this car? ?????? Would we be so excited about the E60 M5 if it still had an S62 motor? I think not!

The new V10 is great but keep in mind that it still has roughly the same displacement and roughly the same torque numbers as our S62. Add a greater than usual dose of the "first year blues" due to the insane complexity and the new first time done in-house DME, and it's pretty clear that we are seeing a lot of hype here. If it came with the S70 (600 HP V12 McLaren F1 motor) then, maybe we would have something to really celebrate, but we will probably have to wait until the 2012 M5 for that one! :)
 
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