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lvegaskiwi said:
Two M5's would not MOVE at all (allow us to select "D" drive or "R" reverse) when it was time to reverse-off the dyno machine (roller). We each got an error message and so the DMS tech had to use his equipment to reset the computer (it took about 2-3 mins for the DMS tech to do whatever it was he did).

One M5 did NOT get the error message nor did it go into the "limp- mode". We guessed that it may have had something to do with him selecting the "D" drive gear and driving slightly forward BEFORE selecting the "R" reverse gear, when it was time for him to reverse-off the dyno machine.

Since that day, I have not wanted to dyno my car again! I asked PPG4 to keep me posted on this issue so I could determine whether or not our incident was an isolated one.
Rest assured your incident is not isolated. Some cars have been able to dyno and others have not. In fact, one car that we had dyno'd ended up going to the dealer for some warranty work...the dealer updated the software...when it came back to us, we were no longer able to dyno it. Part of the problem (if not the whole problem) is version of DME software that engages wheel speed sensors so as a failsafe so the rear wheels are not spinning when the front wheels are stationary (read: burnout). Whereas before it would still allow for full power, I believe the new software retards the power dramatically to what you call "limp mode" even though it's not really limp mode (that's more emmissions-related). You will need a GT1 or equivalent to reset the fault codes.
 

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Simon @ evosport said:
Part of the problem (if not the whole problem) is version of DME software that engages wheel speed sensors so as a failsafe so the rear wheels are not spinning when the front wheels are stationary (read: burnout). Whereas before it would still allow for full power, I believe the new software retards the power dramatically to what you call "limp mode" even though it's not really limp mode (that's more emmissions-related). You will need a GT1 or equivalent to reset the fault codes.
Yes ... I do remember now the DMS tech explaining to us the sensors, and how they may have reacted to the back wheels spinning while the front wheels were stationary. What was the reason for BMW updating the software? What version did they use to replace the earlier version?

I can't recall if the "limp-mode" also had something to do with our inability to engage the "D" drive and "R" reverse gears. I suspect that they were two separate problems.
 

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Simon @ evosport said:
... Whereas before it would still allow for full power, I believe the new software retards the power dramatically to what you call "limp mode" even though it's not really limp mode (that's more emmissions-related). You will need a GT1 or equivalent to reset the fault codes.
I wander if the lesson here is to not have the later version of software installed on to your M5? I am very interested to know what version software was written back on to the ECU?
 

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lvegaskiwi said:
What was the reason for BMW updating the software? What version did they use to replace the earlier version?
There are many reasons why they would. Even Mercedes has recently been updating the DME's during a large recall campaign..in that update, they are also changing various protocols and parameters that is effecting performance and tuning ability. The M5 has had a number of issues (from steering angle sensors, etc.) that are requiring updates. BMW may take it upon themselves during this time (perhaps after realizing a potential problem with vehicle misuse or abuse) to aggressively reprogram the DME to have a safe mode intervene much earlier than before to prevent a catastrophic event. We saw this on the S54 M3 after the car was brought in to the dealer for the bearing recall.


lvegaskiwi said:
I can't recall if the "limp-mode" also had something to do with our inability to engage the "D" drive and "R" reverse gears. I suspect that they were two separate problems.
I'm sure it was related. Depending on how you start the car, if the hood is open, what gear you are in, if someone pulled a fuse, etc., various fault codes will appear. On the iDrive you may see the same error message(s): DSC fault, transmission failure, restraint system failure, etc. Sometime it may now allow first gear start and only allow you to go from N > 2. Other times, it may not engage a forward or reverse gear. Same cause, just different effects.
 

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This started of as an interesting thread about the SS setup. Lot's o' potential ... but now we're talking about Big Brother in Bavaria slapping our wrists for having some fun with the car.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like if we try an aggressive burnout, the new DME upgrade will "conveniently" retard the engine or put it into some form of "limp mode"...
I guess new isn't necessarily better when it comes to software from the $tealer. :3:

:cheers:
 

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Discussion Starter #26 (Edited)
Sorry guys, the internet connection at this hotel blows… I’ve tried to post three times and the internet connection keeps resetting when I try to post, so this will be the fourth time I’ve written this. Getting down to business…

Jamie140… I’ll post video/sound as soon as I can. I don’t have a proper video camera though and I haven’t tested out the video/audio record function on my digital still camera.

M!... probably more than I should have spent, but you only live once. Check out www.turnermotorsport.com and/or www.supersprintna.com for pricing. I’ll say that Will as kind enough to apply a bit of a discount for buying the whole thing at once.

Blau M5… thanks.

M5bub… you have it right in general terms, though the design can impact where in the range performance improves most. From what I’ve read, on this particular car, the SS headers should provide improvements through out the rev range.

Lawrencew83/drewzMMM… actually, the car that TMS buttoned up last week was not running the SS cats; they modified the stock units. So technically, unless they get the other car they had scheduled done first, I'll be the first! Not that I really care...

Wovlerine… thanks; I hope you’re right!

Lvegaskiwi…
1) see post to Jamie140 above.
2) Shouldn’t require any modification with the use of the SS cats according to Will Turner; that only needs to be done if you use the stock cats. You’d also need to install 02 sensor bungs in the stock cats if you go that route.
3) You’ve got the answer to that one already.
4) You and me both!

Gustav… as seen earlier, yeah, problems. The car dynode at 197 and 267 HP, clearly an issue. Although we won’t be able to get a baseline with my particular car, they’ve dynode a couple of others at 420RWHP. They’re working on a work around, so hopefully we’ll be able to post some results shortly after the work is complete.

Simon… how’s my car doing? I didn’t have an internet connection at my conference and couldn’t step out so I couldn’t check on it today.

Thanks to everyone for the encouragement and interest!

Cheers,

--Ian
 

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PPG4 said:
Lawrencew83/drewzMMM… actually, the car that TMS buttoned up last week was not running the SS cats; they modified the stock units. So technically, unless they get the other car they had scheduled done first, I'll be the first! Not that I really care...

--Ian
I am a dumbass. I stand corrected.
 

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Discussion Starter #28 (Edited)
drewzMMM said:
I am a dumbass. I stand corrected.
Being a little hard on yourself, dont you think?:) How have the first couple of days with the SS pipes and muffllers been treating you?
 

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:thumbsup:

Btw, you gotta let us hear the sound of full SS setup once it's done :haha2::haha2:

Are you interested in "little" M5 meet in san diego?
just to let you know, there's socaleuro meeting every wednesday night in san diego.. (www.socaleuro.com)... might wanna check that out when you're not busy..


PPG4 said:
Lawrencew83/drewzMMM… actually, the car that TMS buttoned up last week was not running the SS cats; they modified the stock units. So technically, unless they get the other car they had scheduled done first, I'll be the first! Not that I really care...
 

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Boys,Boys,.....Lets not have a Hissy ya know.....lol
 

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Kudos to you for being a trailblazer! :trophy_bronze: I sure hope you love the results!

Why not have it chipped now, too?
 

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lawrencew83 said:
:thumbsup:

Btw, you gotta let us hear the sound of full SS setup once it's done :haha2::haha2:

Are you interested in "little" M5 meet in san diego?
just to let you know, there's socaleuro meeting every wednesday night in san diego.. (www.socaleuro.com)... might wanna check that out when you're not busy..
yeah lets hear that thing scream! also let us know hp difference on that bad boy.
 

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I wish you get a perfect upgrade, and excellent results on the dyno!

If possible, could you also write down which will be the dB level your beast creates before/after the upgrade?

Theo
 

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I wish you get a perfect upgrade, and excellent results on the dyno!

If possible, could you also write down which will be the dB level your beast creates before/after the upgrade?

Theo
 

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Discussion Starter #35 (Edited)
Jamie140 said:
Kudos to you for being a trailblazer! :trophy_bronze: I sure hope you love the results!

Why not have it chipped now, too?
Thanks. Nothling like living on the bleeding edge.

Couple of reasons...

1) I want to give the stock ECU a chance to acclimate to the new parts.

2) No one's released software optimized for the SS system (Supposedly Hamman has software optimized specifically for the SS setup - they're just repackaging SS sparts in their name, but I can't find it anywhere; not that I've been looking too hard). EvoSport will have software optimized for its headers whent they're released, but they're still a little ways off.

3) I'd like to do a pre/post software upgrade dyno after the hardware is in to get an idea of what kind of gains software upgrades are really capable of.

4) Toying with the idea of possibly doing the Kellener's/Schrick cam/software package (waaaaaay) down the line. No sense in paying for something twice.

ttm6... As soon as I can, I'll post the dyno (see dyno issues above)
theob... Thanks. I don't have anything to measure db levels... any recommendations? It's already in surgery, so a pre test won't be possible, ,but I'm sure it would be the same as anyother stock E60 M5.
 

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PPG4 said:
Thanks. Nothling like living on the bleeding edge.

Couple of reasons...

1) I want to give the stock ECU a chance to acclimate to the new parts.

2) No one's released software optimized for the SS system (Supposedly Hamman has software optimized specifically for the SS setup - they're just repackaging SS sparts in their name, but I can't find it anywhere; not that I've been looking too hard). EvoSport will have software optimized for its headers whent they're released, but they're still a little ways off.

3) I'd like to do a pre/post software upgrade dyno after the hardware is in to get an idea of what kind of gains software upgrades are really capable of.

4) Toying with the idea of possibly doing the Kellener's/Schrick cam/software package (waaaaaay) down the line. No sense in paying for something twice.

ttm6... As soon as I can, I'll post the dyno (see dyno issues above)
theob... Thanks. I don't have anything to measure db levels... any recommendations? It's already in surgery, so a pre test won't be possible, ,but I'm sure it would be the same as anyother stock E60 M5.
I think you're smart to wait for the chip. Since you should be moving more air through the engine than possible with the stock setup, any chip mod needs to take this into account in terms of fuel delivery. The other question I'd have is whether the stock setup is capable of delivering enough fuel.
 

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PPG4,
There are many dB meters out there that you can find easily, and are rather cheap too. However, you should be carefull with the method of metering the noise you get from your beast, because, you may acquire extremely variating results...I think there's a standard method of measuring the dB output of a car, but unfortunately I don't have it written down right now.

As far as I know our car produces a healthy 90dB @ around 5.800rpm, which goes up to 98dB with the Eisenmann Race system (almost triple/quadruple the acoustic intensity of the stock M5!!!). So, if you're going to change all the exhaust, from the headers and down, then I guess the 98dB will be the minimum you'll get.... :D

PS
With my upgraded Lotus Elise 111R, I had measured 103dB from the exhaust alone (Lotus Sport 2 Upgrade), and when I fitted the header and a much freer induction kit, the Lotus Symphonic Orchestra reached the noise levels >106-108dB :D :D :D I guess an M5 will never reach these figures, nor the passengers will ever be able to bear them. The Elise has a very small cabin, and is basically a roadster, whereas our beast is a saloon car where the cabin works as a very large resonator, further boosting any unwanted high or low frequencies :)
 

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Discussion Starter #38
UPDATE

Okay, just checked in with EvoSport to see how things are going. Here's where we are.

The stock headers came out no problem and in under 5 hours. However, there have been some issues with getting the SS units on...

1) In order to tighten down the headers, the heat shielding in the engine bay needs to come out. In order to get the bolts holding the heatshielding in, the airboxes need to come out. This has lengthened the process.

2) Supersprint has given little to no documentation on the install process. Because each tube is a seperate piece that fit together into the collector, they've had to do a bit of trial and error to get everything to fit together properly.

The good news is that one bank is fully installed and the second is almost complete! It's going to take some time to button it all up, but Bob said that it will be done by mid-day Friday for sure.

More bad news... the dyno issue has not been resolved, nor have they come close to finding a solution, that means no dyno for now. :mad: :mad: :mad:

More to come as things unfold...
 

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Discussion Starter #39
lawrencew83 said:
:thumbsup:

Btw, you gotta let us hear the sound of full SS setup once it's done :haha2::haha2:

Are you interested in "little" M5 meet in san diego?
just to let you know, there's socaleuro meeting every wednesday night in san diego.. (www.socaleuro.com)... might wanna check that out when you're not busy..
I'd probably be up for that at some point, though the next couple of weeks may be pretty crazy; usually a bunch of friends from college descend on my house every year for the 4th of July. The following weekend is usually spent in a very dark room with a couple gallons of water and a carton of Aleve, recovering from the insanity.

cherrsagai :cheers:
 

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Discussion Starter #40
COMPLETE!

Just got back from picking up the car at EvoSport.

First, I'd like to say thanks to everyone there for all of their help and hard work making this happen. They know their stuff, do solid work and don't cut corners.

I took a short video of revving after I got home. Unfortunately, I let me Dad take one of the car I drove to work today back to LA and it had my new laptop in it; I'm trying to upload it now...

Anyway, first impressions. The video doesn't it do it justice. This thing is LOUD. Don't doubt it for a second. It's kind of fun, but there's a touch of brutality to it that isn't for the faint of heart. It's going to be too much for most people... not that the M5 isn't already. I'll see how it goes for a couple weeks and re-evaluate. I may adjust with a SuperSprint Resonator section instead of the Xpipe and/or the Sport Muffler if/when they ever get to the States. If it ends up being too much and I just can't stand to wait, EvoSport suggested modifying the Xpipe by essentially welding in resonators.

It burbles at low idle. The idle is deep and loud; in fact it was loud enough that when I first blipped the throttle a few times, the PDC was still on and the sound/air waves were enough to make it think I was about to hit something. It gets louder through about 3200rpm, where the tone starts to change, it becomes higher and more pleasant. Above about 5krpm, it sings.

Driving Impressions... I'll start by saying that during the hour and half drive home, the car began to feel stronger and stronger. I'm pretty sure the ECU was beginning to compensate. Reaching speed is even more effortless than before, power application is still linear, but I can feel noticeable difference from about 4k or so. I will say it is definitely a more visceral experience, without equivication, as the sound really let's you know you're winding it out; you can almost feel the exhaust pulse.

Droning... unfortunately, there is a drone at from about 2500 to 3500 rpm. Which is normal freeway speed cruising range in top gear. It is annoying. I found myself consciously trying to avoid that rande of the rpm, either by downshifting or stepping it up.
:M5rev:

I think the only cure for that is going to be one of the modifications mentioned above, or lower gears (to avoid the rpm band at cruising speed I'd say it needs to be at least 10-15% higher numerically to do this adequately)... based on the conversation I had this afternoon, EvoSport might be able to help me out with that soon.

I should also point out that intake noise has changed. I feel like the exhaust is pulling air through faster than it can be delivered from the intakes as there is a bit of intake whine under heavy acceleration. It's almost like a faint turbo whine. Can't decide if I like it or not, that's going to take more time. It seems like it want's more air than can be delivered by the current intake. Makes me think that bigger TB's and valves be the next step on the mod list if you want more oomph.

Dyno... we're still stuck with the same dyno issues. I'm kind of irritated but not with anyone other than BMW for jacking my software to prevent us putting our cars on dyno's. I know at some point, the tuners will prevail, but until that day comes, I'll continue to be irritated.

Technical Niggles... the emissions warning is coming on, which triggers the check engine light. I talked with the tech that was doing the diagnostics and basically what's happening is that the cat's aren't getting as hot as the oem units and the computer thinks something is wrong. He re-set it a couple of times to see if it would clear out and it does, but returns when you start the engine up the next time. I think this is going to have to be addressed through aftermarket software that changes the expected parameters from the 02 sensor.

Overall, I'm impressed with the quality of the product and installation. Though I think that resonators will eventually become part of the package. I'll reserve final judgment until I have more wheel time.

Looks like the video wouldn't upload... wrong file type apparently and I don't have the software on this computer to change it. Gustav, any suggestions?

Cheers.
 
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