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Discussion Starter #1
I have reported earlier about my first drive with a 645 Ci. The car is really superb. But on whett streets I had have traction problems. The DSC lamp was more on then off.
When driving on similar conditions with my Porsche 996 tt the ESP-lamp never lights. Of course the Porsche has the motor at rear but he also have 4-wheel drive. Also I have read a lot articles about the new X3 (my wife will buy one). There is described that the new 4-wheel drive is more for traction then for any other things.

So if a 645 Ci has problems with the traction with 333 HP then the problems will rice with 500 HP. In my opinion the new X-drive would be perfect to solve the problem. They can put 100% power on the rear tyres (I would suggest only 70%) and in case of loosing traction they can put more on the front axle.

What do you think about?

Greetings

Adnan
 

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:3: NO !!

Seriously, we have covered this before on here. BMW M cars are designed to be GT car. They are not rally cars designed to go bounding about in low traction conditions.

  • 4wd adds weight
  • 4wd adds parasitic drivetrain losses
  • 4wd dulls the handling of the car.
  • 4wd is of at best margional use in the dry.
A few weeks ago while my M3 was waiting on tires I had the chance to drive a Evo VIII at the autocross. Most would agree that and Evo is one of the best handling 4wd cars made. My first run of the day it was wet. Without a doubt the evo was faster in those conditions than my car would have been. However, once it dried up any advantage that the 4wd would have given the evo was gone.

However, the big thing I took away is that the evo is not nearly as rewarding to drive. One of the big reasons is that the 4wd system covers up driver error. It takes far less skill to be fast in a 4wd car and the ultimate limits are lower for a skilled driver.

If you want a large sports luxury sedan designed to make anyone feel like they have skill, and/or, made to go racing in the rain or snow then the RS6 is for you, not an M car.

:flag:
 

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Agreed. 4wd and/or forced induction would dilute the pure M experience.
 

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A good set of winter tires will solve the problem for snowy days.
My old S8 with stock tires was way more dangerous in winter then my E55 with Dunlop M3's.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
but the M5 will have 550 HP (news on autobild.de). I had a chance to drive a Maserati with 480 hp. It was impossible to drive the car on whett streets.

I agree for a sports car weight is very important, but then you should by a Porsche and not a M5. If you can´t put the power on the street then you have a car which can only drive fast if it is straight! Like MB E 55 AMG. But is this a real sports car then? I think no.

In my opinion putting the power on the street is esential.

Adnan
 

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Discussion Starter #6
absent said:
A good set of winter tires will solve the problem for snowy days.
My old S8 with stock tires was way more dangerous in winter then my E55 with Dunlop M3's.
in Germany everone is using winter tyres. If not and you are involved unguilty in an accident then you will be 30% guilty.

Winter tyres don´t solve any traction problem, opose they increase because they are not so strong as summer tyres.
 

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mumbasic said:
In my opinion putting the power on the street is esential.
Sure, there will be no problem in the dry. However, I don't know how you can expect to put down 500+ hp in the rain (I am assuming you mean wet when you say whett).

In the rain the M5/6 will be every bit as drivable as any other BMW. However, that extra edge will need to be left for dry days. If you think 4wd is some cure all for traction problems then I would suggest you try to drive a 4wd car in the rain at a track day or autocross. You will find that all the 4wd does is allow you to dig your hole faster if you don't know how to drive the car. 4wd cars don't turn or stop any better. Actually in most cases they cannot match a rwd car in either category, wet, snow, or dry. Its all about weight and weight distribution. This is why an M car shouldn't have 4wd.

BTW: I don't think anyone believes that an M3/5/6 is a true "sports" car. What makes them special is they are medium to large luxury cars that can kick the a** of most sports cars street or track. :1:
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Enigma said:
Sure, there will be no problem in the dry. However, I don't know how you can expect to put down 500+ hp in the rain (I am assuming you mean wet when you say whett).

In the rain the M5/6 will be every bit as drivable as any other BMW. However, that extra edge will need to be left for dry days. If you think 4wd is some cure all for traction problems then I would suggest you try to drive a 4wd car in the rain at a track day or autocross. You will find that all the 4wd does is allow you to dig your hole faster if you don't know how to drive the car. 4wd cars don't turn or stop any better. Actually in most cases they cannot match a rwd car in either category, wet, snow, or dry. Its all about weight and weight distribution. This is why an M car shouldn't have 4wd.

BTW: I don't think anyone believes that an M3/5/6 is a true "sports" car. What makes them special is they are medium to large luxury cars that can kick the a** of most sports cars street or track. :1:
then you have to try a Porsche 996 turbo with 4wd and you will see that the car can drive much faster then a 2 wd car (on wet conditions). Also you will have problems to put 550 hp with 2 wd on dry conditions.

Adnan

PS. :( whett should be wet :(
 

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mumbasic said:
then you have to try a Porsche 996 turbo with 4wd and you will see that the car can drive much faster then a 2 wd car (on wet conditions). Also you will have problems to put 550 hp with 2 wd on dry conditions.
A 4wd car will out accelerate a 2wd car in the wet. It doesn't have a cornering or braking advantage. 4wd gives a lot of drivers a false sense of comfort.

There is a reason the GT2 and GT3 are rwd unlike their base models. AWD was added to the 911 for the purpose of dulling the handling of the car because too many people were getting in over their heads. Thankfully because BMW doesn't put the engine behind the rear wheels we have a far better balanced car to start from and DSC should be enough to keep the large number of unskilled drivers from getting into too much trouble.
 

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I agree totally with Egnima on this one. Having driven AWD cars in wet and dry, the feeling they give is definately a false sense of security in cornering and braking.

Will a AWD car turn a lap faster in the rain than a RWD car? Sure, they can place more power on the ground to help in acceleration. They also help negate some of the oversteer, especially under power.

I for one believe that the M series should not add AWD in order to help drivers get the power to the ground. IMHO, Ms should always require their drivers to raise their abilities in order to take advantage of the available abilities of the car. I believe that was the original intention of the M line, when looking back at the original M3s. To me, it appears the original intention was to make a high power car for people that really knew how to drive, instead of making a high power car that people can drive (like the AMG).
 

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NO WAY!

Im with you guys. The M cars are supposed to be high performance cars for the street. You dont want to use all that high performance in sub-optimal conditions: weather, traffic, etc. I have no problem with BMW offering AWD on the other models- as a matter of fact, I think they should offer it as an option, if possible. But for the M cars- no. Plus it gives you something to learn- how do you put all that power down smoothly. Anyone can mash the accelerator of an automatic awd car and get pulled forward. I like Enigma's line about AWD helping you to dig the hole faster.
 

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I don't think there is a right/wrong answer to this. AWD isn't just for wet/sub-optimal conditions - it's a means of getting lots of power to the pavement faster -- several high-performance manufacturers like Audi/Porsche/Lamborghini have embraced AWD for this purpose. While I certainly don't know the technical advantages/disadvantages - I absolutely loved the 911 C4 I used to own and it was siginficantly easier to drive than 2WD variants of the normally aspirated versions of 911's I have had.

I would guess BMW wouldn't go AWD - there isn't a history there (that I'm aware of).
 

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Re: NO WAY!

I dont think BMW will offer it on the M cars as it is not part of their heritage. The M cars are known for RWD manual drivers cars, it is a formula that has worked for BMW and will continue to work for them.

As for Enigma's comment that the a AWD drive car does not handle better than a RWD in the wet is not correct. See comment by Hans Stuck who now races for BMW after a SCCA GTU/GTO race in the 1990 season. Durning that period he raced for Audi in a 90 quattro race car against RWD V8's. During a race in the rain he was quoted saying "there is no better feeling than passing someone around a corner on the outside in the RAIN" So what was he talking about???? traction of the car in the rain and being able to keep the power down in all situations. Fast forward to Speedvision world challenge 2003 season, the RS6 finished two laps ahead of all of the other cars in a rain soaked race BMW M3, Corvette, Viper, Mustang and so on. All of which are rear wheel drive cars.

This is not to say RWD cars are not great road cars....they are and better in most cases than AWD cars. Audi has understeer due to the AWD layout, it is someting they have been dealing with for years. Hence the DRC they now have which helps with this problem but cant fix it. I think RWD cars a great fun to drive and do require a great deal of skill at the limits but they dont handle better that AWD in the rain. AWD does not do anything for stopping, so yes you can get yourself in trouble if you are not aware of the limits just like a RWD car and some people do get the false sense of security in an AWD car. You still need to know how to drive and what the ultimate limits of your car are.:cheers:
 

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Micko said:
I remember one race when the track was all wet and M3 took the first and second place, audi was third.

I guess it was this one:
http://www.world-challenge.com/news/03press105.html

But sure, 4wd cars should be faster in the wet because of better traction, but there is also more weight etc..
Sometimes driver ability can overcome technology. That is the one thing I have always loved about M... it expects you to have that ability.
 

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Re: NO WAY!

Bauer said:
As for Enigma's comment that the a AWD drive car does not handle better than a RWD in the wet is not correct. See comment by Hans Stuck who now races for BMW after a SCCA GTU/GTO race in the 1990 season. Durning that period he raced for Audi in a 90 quattro race car against RWD V8's. During a race in the rain he was quoted saying "there is no better feeling than passing someone around a corner on the outside in the RAIN" So what was he talking about???? traction of the car in the rain and being able to keep the power down in all situations. Fast forward to Speedvision world challenge 2003 season, the RS6 finished two laps ahead of all of the other cars in a rain soaked race BMW M3, Corvette, Viper, Mustang and so on. All of which are rear wheel drive cars.
No one is debating that a 4wd car can go faster in the rain. You need to do 3 things to turn good lap times. One of which is accelerate out of turns so its expected that 4wd cars would do better in this case.

Also you must keep in mind that the rules to the various race series are designed to equalize various cars in the DRY. So its no surprise that when a 4wd car was regulated to parity for dry conditions now competes against the same 2wd foes that it would walk away in the rain.

I got burned by that same logic at an BMW autocross late this year. They had a point system designed to handicap cars based on their potential. Then during one event it rains. I was still caring the point handicap for 300+ hp and a full suspension. However, due to the rain all I could do is spin the rear tires. It was a hell of a lot of fun but I didn't look good in the standing.

Should we use the ice races where you see an escort walk away from BMWs, Mustangs, and Camero's as evidence that the next M car should be FWD?

Again, M cars are not about racing around a wet track. They are sports cars and not rally cars. If you want a rally car buy one, they make great beaters for the winter ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Guys you are all right!
But today we have a different situation. Driving a M car is (or will be) different then years ago. You will have 500 or even 550 hp and you will have a semi automatic. And don´t forget there is still DSC.

So DSC protects you today. Sometimes like driving an old diesel. In my opinion it is better to get the extra grip from the 4wd then to be slown down by DSC. As I have heard it will be still on even if you turn it off, like Porsche is using. In extrem situation the DSC will work even you have choosen to turn it off. I have tested MB SL 55 AMG, tried to accelerate from a curve and the car drove only slowly, because the EPS has worked. When trying the same with my turbo I don´t need ESP, because I have the extra grip. What is better?

I am driving every year twice on Hockenheimring (Formula 1 course) with my Porsche 996 tt. And every year a Porsche 996 turbo is the fastest car. There are many 996 GT 2 and GT 3 cars, but no one can drive it as fast as a Porsche 996 turbo can (a profi could drive it faster). Because of the extra grip. We drive in summer when the conditions are good.

We need a help to bring this power efficiently to the road, one is an intelligent 4wd which can spread the power between 0% and 100% between the axles. X-Drive can do this.

Adnan
 

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Enigma- It looks like we agree. Dont get me wrong, I think BMW M cars are some of the best if not best sedan drivers cars or cars for that matter. They raise the bar for all commers....and I love it. I dont think that BMW will use AWD in the M cars....its not in thier heirtage. BMW is a master at RWD performance cars that are also daily drivers. But Mumbasic does have a point about the power these cars are getting and how to transfer it to the ground. I cant wait to see what BMW is going to come up with to get between 500 to 550hp to the ground. I am fairly positive it will be the best system out there for a RWD car when it comes. It is getting VERY interesting in the uber sedan class :hihi: ....thank you BMW for making everyone step up to the plate. If I was not such an Audi addict, BMW would be my next choice...I just love the quattro. anyway have a happy and SAFE New Year cherrsagai
 

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vndkshn said:
Will a AWD car turn a lap faster in the rain than a RWD car? Sure, they can place more power on the ground to help in acceleration. They also help negate some of the oversteer, especially under power.
This isn't always true. A few months ago, some magazine (maybe Car & Driver) did a comparison of the M3 and S4. The M3 turned in a better lap time. Surprise. Anyway, some meathead wrote in crying about how they should compare the cars on a wet track. The magazine obliged and, surprise, the M3 won by an even larger margin.

In the hands of a skilled driver -- hold on, let me clarify that. I am not a skilled driver. Many of you, who think you are skilled drivers, are probably not skilled drivers. I'm talking about people who have serious experience and solid success on the track. In the hands of a skilled driver, the fact that a RWD car can break loose in corners allows it to often turn in better times than a similar AWD car. This doesn't necessarily apply to rally car racing, but the previously mentioned Porsche AWD mentality supports this. RWD can get people into trouble, and AWD helps prevent that, but does not, by any means, guarantee safety.

If you're on the street in the rain or snow, I sincerely hope that you're not trying to put down 550 horsepower. I don't care if you have FWD, RWD, AWD, or six driven Blizzaks with chains on them. On the track, sure, rock out. But if you're laying down that kind of power on public street, you should be shot in the head with a bolt gun.
 

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would be nice if all the power is useable most of the time.
M5/E55 in wet will turn into limp mode / 545i / E500 with all traction control lights blinking like xmas tree.

should M5 M6 get awd? i dont think BMW makes good awd system? do they? never tried the x-drive.

i think the average driver find an awd car like 996TT more driveable than one without. (on the other hand, that does not mean it is safer. physics still applies).

i doubt that BMW has anything in the awd version for the M5 M6.
if traction is an issue, you have options like the RS6.
 
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