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Shaking when braking at highway speeds after I rebuilt brake calipers and installed new rotors and pads

8K views 51 replies 13 participants last post by  AVGVSTVS 
#1 · (Edited)
Brake parts:
  • ECS Slotted Rotors
  • Stoptech Street pads
  • New brake pistons
  • New guide pins and bushings
  • New piston O-rings
Recently completed work applicable to this issue:
  • New Thrust arms
  • New Center steering linkage
  • New Idler arm and bushing
  • New Tie rods
- Front straight control arms (wishbones) and sway bar links remain un-replaced, both likely worn
- Rear control arms and bushings haven't been replaced and are likely worn
(shaking is from front of car)
__

I just recently rebuilt my front brake calipers due to an issue I was having with one. The inside (piston side) pad stuck to the rotor wearing it's inner face and the pad down to bare metal, while the rest of the brakes and the other side of the rotor was wearing identically to the passenger side front brakes which had no wear issues.

I decided to do a full caliper rebuild on both front calipers to alleviate the issue and have fresh calipers.
I installed new caliper pistons, o-rings, guide pins, and bushings. I made sure to clean the cylinder extensively before inserting the new piston and only lubed it with brake fluid. The pistons on both sides went in easy though didn't seem to push in as far as they should, they got as far as just before flush with the caliper compared with the OEM untouched caliper. We we're able to get it assembled but the pads were a tight fit and we figured we made a mistake bleeding the brakes (we did). Took the car for a drive and pedal fell to the floor and was slow coming back up. Only braking would occur 3/4 inch from the ground, and oddly it would often actuate ABS with little braking force when the pedal is pressed as far to the ground as possible. Definitely got air in the system.

The next day I bled the 2 front brakes and the braking now seems perfect and the car's drivable; pedal is firm and modulation is smooth and accurate, much better than it was before. I'm planning on doing a full ABS DIS flush when I install rear brakes, parking brake shoes, and new lines, this was enough to expel the air we accidentally got in the front lines.

However I've been noticing shaking anytime I hit the brakes above 40mph. Sometimes the shaking is a bit violent but eases away quickly into a vibration. Applying more pressure seems to help significantly in reducing shaking when hitting the brakes above 40mph, though I haven't tried that at speeds higher than 70mph and the car still slows down quick! Shaking wasn't totally eliminated though, just greatly reduced. (I torque my wheels carefully to avoid rotor warpage, I also cleaned the rotor's contact areas with the hub and wheels to ensure and perfectly even fitment.)

The pads have only been bedding to the rotor for about 20 miles, the first 5 miles being before they were properly bled with air in front lines which could have caused uneven distribution of pad material on the rotor, maybe this could be causing the shaking while braking? Could this go away after bedding in the brakes properly over more like 500 miles?

I'm not certain what could be causing this. The sometimes violent shake that eases away quickly just at the beginning of braking above at highway speed is concerning but is also rare and seems to depend on speed though I've yet to drive it enough to be sure.

Though I noticed nothing like this at all before the brake work, I'm considering my front straight control arms, I was planning Turner upgraded mononball straight control arms at some point and wasn't totally sold on them yet. I just don't want to throw money at that and still be left with this issue when the arms seemed to cause no noticeable issues before the brake work. And the jump from no shaking to this amount of front end shaking after just brake work is concerning to say the least!

Does anyone have any ideas? I'd appreciate your help!
 
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#2 ·
How many miles on it? Are you feeling it in the steering wheel with a “head shake” or shuddering of the steering wheel? That most likely would be a lower control arm issue. But it doesn’t show up as an instant violent shaking. Comes on with wear. Both of my E39s did this.. if it makes more of a vibration felt up front might be a possible warped rotor? I fought one for awhile. A dial indicator finally told the truth that a rotor was bad out of the box.
 
#3 ·
The car has about 107k miles.
The shaking I feel through the steering wheel and front end of the car any time I hit the brakes at highway speeds. I doubt my control arms are the culprit just because they never exhibited any issues prior to the brake job, but it’s possible. A warped rotor out if the box is also possible, I may have that checked if there are no other possible solutions.
 
#4 ·
When was the last time you balanced your wheels?
 
#8 ·
I will be balancing them soon.
 
#5 ·
107k miles?? - your looking at lower control arm issues soon for sure...
Just the nature of the E39s. Both of mine started nearing 100k. Saw it while braking above 60mph. Even if I lightly braked it would shake. It got to be violent on my first one. It seemed certain pavement areas would set it off more than others. Did you have slotted rotors before? More effective Braking so maybe adding more twisting moments to the LCA bushings?? Just thoughts here...
 
#7 ·
I had solid OEM rotors before. Is the "lower control arm" you refer to the thrust arm or straight control arm? The thrust arms were replaced around January of this year so they're definitely good. I was planning on replacing the other, straight control arms soon just to keep the suspension as tight as possible but if they were that badly worn to cause shaking I should've at least noticed something, anything before doing this brake job though I noticed nothing at all, even under hard braking from high speed, no shake or wobble whatsoever. I didn't even experience any shaking before I replaced my thrust arms!

Maybe you're right that braking performance is improved now and that may bring out some issue that was already there, but I didn't notice a hint of that issue before the brake job. My brake pedal is firmer and my Stoptech pads do have better bite then before.

Thrust arm bushings are usual culprit, but you have replaced those, correct? If yes you can rule those out.

When you say “pads have been bedding to the rotor” does this mean you did not actually bed the brakes? This doesn’t happen over a period of miles, it’s a procedure you do and then it is done. Read this for procedure and follow the link in first paragraph as to why. Driving and using the brakes will not evenly distribute a uniform layer of pad material on the rotor. Uneven deposits will cause vibration.


If you did actually bed in the brakes, I would replace the front controll arms (have them checked if out of spec replace). Worn swaybar links won’t cause a shimmy under breaking; with suspension evenly loaded left to right there is no force being applied to them, swaybars handle lateral loads, and have nothing to do with locating the hub assembly. I am not saying if they are worn and out of spec you shouldn’t replace them, just that they won’t cause a shimmy.
When I say "pads been bedding to rotor" I meant just the amount of miles on the pads and rotors. I haven't gone through the bedding procedure, I just tried this morning though! When braking hard or gently from 60mph I get varying degrees of shaking so decided not to keep trying and I don't really feel comfortable braking hard repeatedly if they keep shaking like this, it feels like something's eventually gonna break.

When the brakes were cold this morning and I tried braking from 45mph the shaking was BAD... felt like the front end was about to fall apart, the shifter was shaking as well which means the shaking is strong enough to affect the driveline 😳 Then the brakes warmed up a bit and it felt like the shaking was reduced. So I kept driving on the highway to keep testing the issue and found heat doesn't have much an impact on shaking, if any.

Car still runs up to 100mph fine and feels solid, oddly braking from 100mph produced almost no shaking whatsoever, maybe just a very slight vibration which could be mistaken for wheels which are very slightly unbalanced. 1 minute later from slower speeds around 70mph the shaking was back anytime I hit the brakes and got even worse as I took the off ramp and started braking from 50mph, violent shake for half a second then eased into a more consistent and less severe vibration until the car got under 30ish when the shaking stopped, I recorded a short video of this shaking before and on the off ramp and will upload it to Youtube and post the video here. You'll be able to see the steering wheel shake, how it's sometimes severe at first then gets better.

Braking from 40-80mph seems to cause the shaking intermittently with varying temperatures having little impact on severity.

Conclusions I can make so far:
  • Shaking seems to happen severely between about 40-80mph, but I can't be sure it won't happen at higher speeds
  • Shaking seems to vary with brake pressure applied but there's usually some shaking on initial bite regardless
  • Shaking is intermittent and barely seems to have any correlation with brake temperature
  • Sometimes I can stop from highway speeds between 40-80 with no shaking at all, only a slight vibration if that
  • Rotors' surfaces look like they're wearing evenly with no odd wear marks correlated to rotor/pad interface issues
  • No shaking whatsoever under about 40mph regardless of brake pressure
  • I don't feel any shaking feedback from brake pedal, just the steering wheel and rest of the front end of the car
  • Nothing feels unusual below 40mph, brakes feel perfect!
 
#6 ·
Thrust arm bushings are usual culprit, but you have replaced those, correct? If yes you can rule those out.

When you say “pads have been bedding to the rotor” does this mean you did not actually bed the brakes? This doesn’t happen over a period of miles, it’s a procedure you do and then it is done. Read this for procedure and follow the link in first paragraph as to why. Driving and using the brakes will not evenly distribute a uniform layer of pad material on the rotor. Uneven deposits will cause vibration.


If you did actually bed in the brakes, I would replace the front controll arms (have them checked if out of spec replace). Worn swaybar links won’t cause a shimmy under breaking; with suspension evenly loaded left to right there is no force being applied to them, swaybars handle lateral loads, and have nothing to do with locating the hub assembly. I am not saying if they are worn and out of spec you shouldn’t replace them, just that they won’t cause a shimmy.
 
#9 · (Edited)
I am not saying the rotors are the issue- but you wouldn’t be able to see uneven deposits with your eye. Also when the brakes are new you must bed them in, no exceptions. Bedding in after deposits have formed is too late.

Something is loose or out of spec. Check that no calipers are sticking, (they can be intermittent but typically get worse with heat), have the rotors checked for runout, and have the entire front suspension checked for play. Anything out of spec correct it.

The thrust arm (called traction strut by bmw) #5 is the usual culprit. You should probably look at the control arm (aka wishbone) as well.

 
#10 ·
All that you are describing points to a suspension or a steering/linkage issue.
 
#11 ·
I’ll second my suspicions that it’s suspension - you described exactly what I’ve had on my 2 E39s, fixed with a rebuild of my control arms.. do a simple dial indicator check on the rotors to rule the rotor problem out, I’m a mechanic and never had what has been mentioned during the “bed” in process.
 
#12 ·
Even if you didn't properly bed the brakes (I have done it both gentle driving, progressively harder for 50-100 miles or the Zeckhausen stomp on the brakes method), vibration shouldn't be that severe. In normal street driving, you are not going to leave that much in the way of deposits on the car, with one exception: when warm to hot and you pull up the handbrake. That is when you get uneven pad deposits that are noticeable.

Assuming your rotors are true and mounted correctly (no rust, sitting flush), the cheap way to clean the rotors is to put on a good set of race pads! At street temperatures, they will be very abrasive with the effect of truing up your rotors. Don't bed them in, you want them to be abrasive. If that cures the problem put in some fresh street pads and bed.

Having said all of that, I don't think it is brakes. It is thrust arm bushings. One important thing when replacing is they have to be tightened loaded. In other words, if they are tightened while the suspension is unloaded, they will wear out quickly, even though new. So talk to whoever did the install.

Personally, I have used the X5 bushings and have never had an issue. If you use those, they must be installed with keyway 180 degrees out from the stock M5 bushings. Long story, if interested, check very old thread "Crevier sucks".

Regards,
Jerry
 
#13 ·
Agree with Jerry on thrust arm bushings...if the car wasn't at normal ride height when they were torqued, they can be toast in very short order. I've even seen some aftermarket (but supposedly "OE" supplier) thrust arms start leaking after a couple hundred miles on an E39 (they're filled with oil), and they were properly installed and torqued.

On the steering part replacements...ensure that the new (?) center track rod was installed correctly (there's a board post ages ago where someone installed it upside down!), and also ensure you have a new idler arm bushing too.

Re brakes...this it totally off the wall, but the worst experience I ever had with brake pads in over 40 years of DIY brake jobs was with Stoptech street pads on my E46 way back when they first came out around 2008-9 or so. I had severe shaking issues show up a short while after installing them with new rotors and bedding them in per Zeck procedure. It didn't make sense to me since these had only seen basic street duty, perhaps 300 miles, and I'd never had pad issue like that before. I tried multiple additional bedding sessions with minor success but in the end there were pad deposits that even my PFC01 race pads couldn't clean off (cementite). I bought another set of new rotors and switched to Centric ceramic pads and never had a further issue with that car's brakes ever again.

Find a small incline. Put the car at the top, windows down, in neutral, and let it roll very slowly...only a few mph, no more than walking speed. Very gently apply brake pressure -- just enough to have pad-rotor contact. Listen carefully for cyclic noise (i.e. if you have contact and then none). Allow the car to speed up to maybe 10mph, now do the same thing and tune into the the feel of the braking once again looking for cyclic response. Often if it's a pad deposit issue, these two tests will allow you to hear and then feel it. You can also try this from a slightly higher speed (~20mph) braking down to zero...hold a constant brake pedal pressure, gentle pressure but enough to stop the car eventually, and evaluate and pulsing as speed falls below 15mph or so.
 
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#15 ·
I use these purple numbers, [#1], to number a point I highlight in bold in your posts to make my reply to each point more clear.

Agree with Jerry on thrust arm bushings... [#1] - if the car wasn't at normal ride height when they were torqued, they can be toast in very short order. I've even seen some aftermarket (but supposedly "OE" supplier) thrust arms start leaking after a couple hundred miles on an E39 (they're filled with oil), and they were properly installed and torqued.

On the steering part replacements... [#2] - ensure that the new (?) center track rod was installed correctly (there's a board post ages ago where someone installed it upside down!), and also ensure you have a new idler arm bushing too.

Re brakes...this it totally off the wall, but the worst experience I ever had with brake pads in over 40 years of DIY brake jobs was with [#3] - Stoptech street pads on my E46 way back when they first came out around 2008-9 or so. I had severe shaking issues show up a short while after installing them with new rotors and bedding them in per Zeck procedure. It didn't make sense to me since these had only seen basic street duty, perhaps 300 miles, and I'd never had pad issue like that before. I tried multiple additional bedding sessions with minor success but in the end there were pad deposits that even my PFC01 race pads couldn't clean off (cementite). I bought another set of new rotors and switched to Centric ceramic pads and never had a further issue with that car's brakes ever again.
[#1} I don't think it is brakes. It is thrust arm bushings. One important thing when replacing is they have to be tightened loaded. In other words, if they are tightened while the suspension is unloaded, they will wear out quickly, even though new. So talk to whoever did the install.

[#1] I drove to @ChrisSKillaZ garage and he replaced the thrust arms for me in January, he's done the job multiple times and is an expert working on E39 M5s, knows these cars in and out. So I know he loaded the suspension and torqued everything down correctly so if the issue is suspension or control arm/bushing related it must be the straight control arms (wishbones) I've yet to replace.

[#2] I installed the new steering track rod myself and actually almost put it in upside down the first time 😂😂 fortunately I quickly figured that out and flipped it around to install correctly.
And yup I did install a new Idler Arm w/ bushing as well, I figured I'd change as many 20 year old rubber parts as I have access to for the freshest and tightest suspension possible. Once the front is fully sorted Im gonna do the same in the rear, everything's getting replaced, rear control arms, guide links, integral links, ball joints, and rear sway links.


[#3] I wonder if this could be a possible cause for the issue I'm having considering I'm using the exact same Stoptech Street Pads 🤔🤔Maybe it was just an issue with an early production run of these pads that's been sorted by now? Or a problem that recurs under certain circumstances...

I'll be testing the rotors with my new dial indicator gauge so hopefully that'll give me some insight, though I'm not sure how I'd be able to differentiate between rotor warpage and pad deposits since I'm assuming both would show as a similar discrepancy in rotor runout when measured with a dial gauge as I rotate the rotor.
Any ideas on how to tell if I'm measuring pad deposits or rotor warpage? I'll be testing the rotor runout later on today.



Something is loose or out of spec. Check that no calipers are sticking, (they can be intermittent but typically get worse with heat), have the rotors checked for runout, and have the entire front suspension checked for play. Anything out of spec correct it.
All that you are describing points to a suspension or a steering/linkage issue.
I’ll second my suspicions that it’s suspension - you described exactly what I’ve had on my 2 E39s, fixed with a rebuild of my control arms.. do a simple dial indicator check on the rotors to rule the rotor problem out, I’m a mechanic and never had what has been mentioned during the “bed” in process.
Thanks for your help and guidance guys, I appreciate it.

I ended up ordering a dial Indicator gauge and will be checking my rotors for warping/uneven deposits today. If my rotors are in good shape I'll know my suspension is the culprit and I'll order new front wishbones and front sway bar links for good measure, at that point every piece of rubber in the front suspension and steering will be new and fresh.

As stated above I don't know how to differentiate between rotor warpage and uneven pad deposits when measuring the rotors runout with a dial gauge, I'm assuming both defects would show up as the same rotor runout discrepancy when measuring the rotor, Any ideas on how to tell whether I'm measuring pad deposits or rotor warpage? I'll be measuring the rotors' runout later on today.

Thanks again
 
#16 ·
You don’t have a warped rotor, as technically that doesn’t really happen- it’s a phrase used to describe lateral runout. You may have lateral runout caused by uneven deposits, lateral runout at the hub or bearing, lateral runout caused by poor manufacturing (uneven surface out of the box).

Or you may have a hot spot, where one area of the rotor has become overheated and has therefore changed in composition, it will become harder with a higher coefficient of friction on that spot- obviously that will cause shudder as the harder spot goes past the pad, the rest of the rotor also wears away more quickly, so now you have a hard “bump” on the rotor surface.

Lateral runout can be measured, hot spot will look like a dark stain on the surface.

I believe the temp at which cast iron starts to become malleable is around 1400f. Formula 1 cars will see 1200f on their brakes for brief periods. Given a road car will see much less, it’s highly unlikely you will ever get them hot enough to deform.
 
#21 ·
I still haven't gotten a chance to measure my rotors for runout, planning on doing so tomorrow on my friend's lift. I'll also check thrust arm bushings again as suggested.

I noticed a new symptom last night, when reversing in a parking garage I hit the brakes and heard clicking sounds coming from the front drivers side brakes as I stopped. I recorded this video and uploaded it to youtube to post here. It shows me braking while moving forward and braking while moving backwards which produced the most clicking sounds.


What could be causing the clicking sounds? It's almost certainly linked to the shaking issue. Control arm/bushing? I feel like it's coming from the brake caliper itself but take that with a grain of salt, just a feeling based on the metallic character of the sound. I feel like It doesn't sound exactly how worn suspension parts sound, like it seems way more metallic. Again, take that feeling with a grain of salt because I don't have much experience with suspension sounds.



Gotcha, so I can conclude there isn't a hot spot on my rotors from what I can tell. More likely uneven deposits or the hub or bearing if I measure any when I get a chance.

My money is STILL on thrust arm bushings, even in spite of this. Last set I put on, I carefully had the weight on the car with all 4 corners up on ramps when I torqued them down, probably my 4th thrust arm job myself. One side leaked out all its oil within about 150 miles. I'm quite convinced (other similar reports) of some sort of manufacturing or quality defect with recent Lemforder parts. Go so tired of dealing with it I went to monoballs. Slightly degraded ride quality, but MUCH more controlled and best of all I'll probably never need to worry/wonder about them causing brake shimmy again! At any rate, go underneath the car and inspect the bushings for the telltale signs of any leakage; I suspect you'll find some. . .
Inspect the rubber very closely and look for any sign oil might have leaked. There were some early batches that the oil leaked out within the first month or two of service, so pockets for dirt where it should not be and when you wipe it off it sticks to itself rather than crumbles away. The issue has been resolved but maybe you got unlucky and got old stock that should have been sent back. Sorry don't remember which manufacturer it was for sure but I think it was lems with the new bushing installed.
Last time I was under the car I didn't notice anything but I didn't look very closely. I'll check again as soon as I get the car back on a lift. I didn't buy Lemforder brand thrust arms though, I think I bought Meyle or something else.

You can't test for runout with worn bearings, they will mimic runout. The first step in setting up is to force the rotor towards and away from the center of the car to look for play in the bearing. If there is you replace the bearings and try again.
I'll check that as well, so I just try to shake the rotor back and forth to check for any play right? If it has any play at all then that would probably be the problem!
 
#23 ·
I’m still leaning an issues with your rotors, calipers, or pads. Every shimmy I’ve dealt with at highway speeds has always been remedied by new rotors or replacing a bad caliper. Specifically, shimmy at highway speeds under very light breaking.

Did you have the shimmy before the brake work?
 
#28 ·
So I have an update to my issue. I replaced my steering rack since it had 2cm play in it. But that did not resolve the brake shimmy. Then I replaced the lower and upper thrust arm bushing to powerflex, that resolved my brake shimmy 100%. The car now feels way more stable, mind you, the old bushings were ok.

my clicking noise still presist, since that came from the brake pad knockback, but the noise is somewhat reduced, maybe the old steering rack had some broken down internals that contributed to that noise.
 
#31 ·
The thrust arms that were removed, what brand were they? Aside from that your setup is not stock so it is possible that whatever vibrations were created could not be damped by the stock arms but the new harder bushing were able to dampen the resonance frequency. The resonance frequency is just that a resonance. So little vibrations that amplify. If you look at how fast the rotor spins it is much faster than the shake you felt. The fact that it goes away above and below certain speeds also identifies it as a resonance. The classic example was the Tacoma bridge, the wind gusts that caused that disaster were not pushing it like a swing. Meaning there was not a single gust that came at the same time the bridge swung one way.
Because you are not stock it is possible that even perfect parts could not dampen the resonance created. Only a change in design could deal with it. I certainly would have thought the play in your rack would have caused you much more grief or you would have noticed a huge improvement replacing it. That is an interesting thing to see and consider.
 
#32 ·
If you are referring to the forward control arms they won't necessarily leak to be bad. Put a crow bar on them and see how easy they wiggle. Not sure about E39, but E60/E63 go out at 40K miles. For what its worth, I think I ran across a post where a guy replaced his brakes and had similar problem, thought it was bad rotors. turned out he had a bad wheel bearing, problem solved.
 
#33 ·
That loud click isn’t knock back- that only occurs in hard corners where the centrifugal force will move the floating rotor out pushing the pads and caliper pistons back. You’ll hear it as a lite swish or if your floating rotors are slotted like mine, a fast light tick tick tick as the slot brushes the pads while pressing on them.

If it’s happening in a straight line the rotor isn’t sitting on the hat correctly, one of the pins may be damaged, or a pad is sticking.

It looks like that loud click happens in a straight line in the video- if on stock brakes with non floating rotors I’d suspect something is sticking (pad or caliper slide) and letting go when the brakes are applied.
 
#36 ·
I replaced my straight control arms and sway bar links the other day, barely any improvement in shake. I couldn't measure my rotor runout because the gauge I got was bad so I sent it back.

I also got my wheels balanced but found 3 of my wheels are bent o_O
I'm getting them straightened asap, I've felt the vibration on the highway and knew I needed a balance but it wasn't ever that bad, I never would've guessed 3 wheels were bent. Thanks New York roads.....

Otherwise I'm considering changing my thrust arms again or switching out the bushings with monoballs. I checked my thrust arms when doing my control arms and the driver's side definitely had some play, though neither were leaking.

G.A.S. has monoballs in stock so I might just order them and hope for the best. At least I'm getting my money's worth in upgrading my bushings if they fail to solve my issue.
 
#37 ·
FYI, I can attest that the monoballs DO add some harshness to the ride quality. You especially notice it on small bumps, like the little reflectors in between lanes. Were I to do it all over again, I'd probably try the E53 solid rubber ones first, but at the time I didn't realize this was an option, and it's not so bad that I'm going to take the effort to take the monoballs back OUT, but wanted to let you know up front so that you can make an informed decision!
 
#38 ·
Yeah I heard it would add some NVH. I'm not sure how much it would bother me though, how bad is it for you? Does it bother you enough that you'd consider it a nuisance? Is the upgrade in steering feel, feedback, and performance worth the added NVH?
 
#42 ·
Those Whitelines look pretty interesting, and I also just found these that are sorta intriguing too, lots of options out there, I think you're just going to need to roll the dice on what seems like the best fit for your driving!
 
#43 ·
I just found this youtube video, he demonstrates how OEM bushing flex vs. Polyurethaning.
This does highlights the cause of concern in stock bushings.
I honestly do not know why, the default bmw design setup allows that much movement.
The amount of movement in the oem bushing seen in this video, is exactly the same amount of movement I had in mine, before changing them.


Go ahead and jump in the video to 6:44
 
#44 ·
I honestly do not know why, the default bmw design setup allows that much movement.
It's primarily for NVH reasons. Those lower control arms are subject to UNBELIEVABLE forces when you're driving around; that's why the arms themselves are so darn big and heavy. I might be wrong, but I would bet those see the highest loads of any single part of the suspension (probably highest when you hit a bump in a turn; it's that link that holds the wheel carrier 'out' so that the bottom of the wheel doesn't buckle 'inward'). So in order to de-couple those gigantic forces from translating to your butt, BMW used those big ol' hydro bushings and gave them all that travel in order to absorb a shock load much more gradually at the chassis side. So it's not without REASON that they made them that way, but hindsight being 20/20 and all that, IMO the improved NVH just ain't worth the sacrificed longevity!
 
#46 ·
#47 ·
Thanks.

I really can't tell what bushings are in there from the info, but I would think someone at Turner would know.

If I compared to stock, I can probably tell (assume X5 bushings) by knowing the keyway is 180 degrees out of phase with the stock setup.

Regards,
Jerry
 
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