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Why would I think it *possible*? Because the entire SAP system is so marginally effective at what it was designed to do (lower cold start-up emissions) and that the expense it adds to the automobile is quite high, that it would only be employed in markets where the prototype submitted for EPA testing absolutely needed it to conform. I don't think that considering the possibility is that far fetched. Thanks for clearing up the issue for me.
 

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Why would you think your car would not have the secondary air injection system.
ALL s62's have them, regardless of market, europe, canada, usa. They all have this system. The ONLY difference is cars in euro spec trim (i.e. not north america) do not monitor for the effectiveness of the system, so it can and will clog, but will not turn on an SES light. A code will be stored, however, but it does not trip the light in a euro car.
2001 euro m5 turns on SES light(secondary air flow too low)
 

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Not hijacking, but have a question along the same lines. My car was shipped from the factory to British Columbia. It looks like it was driven there for maybe 19,000 miles and then was imported into the US. Car check shows this clearly. My question is WHY would my car have an SAP system at all? I was sooooo hoping that it was not there, but it was!
I doubt it was modified at 19K for shipment into the USA as it would have required a lot of parts plus ECU change, etc. Any ideas?

Bill
Well... in sunny British Columbia (the grey space on the map adjoining Washington State's northern border) the emission laws are identical to the 49-state laws in the USA. A wide selection of "American" cars are made in Canada, and like Japan, Canada adopted the US regulations pretty much wholesale. Very minor safety differences, other than that, the same.
 

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That is what I love about this forum- I learn something new every day. My hope is now just "wishfull thinking". Makes a lot of sense, but the thought that *maybe* my car could possibly be sans SAP is not too far fetched is it? Just wrong!

Thanks Bill:cheers:

p.s. Buy my M5! New price is $17,500. I bought a 2002 540i sport was 78K last night for 12,000. It will be a DD for the wife. I just can not make myself comfortable driving the M5 as a DD no matter how much sense you all make it. I just can help but treat it as a museum piece regardless of how silly it is. My adoration will preserve someone elses delight.
 

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funny how I have read some comments on here that carbon buildup doesn't effect performance and all you need it the powerchip flash. Those pictures look like performance is greatly reduced.
 

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funny how I have read some comments on here that carbon buildup doesn't effect performance and all you need it the powerchip flash. Those pictures look like performance is greatly reduced.
The powerchip flash just deletes the CEL for the secondary air pump "flow too low" condition. You dont need it unless you have the compelling need to turn of the CEL, or live in a state with emissions testing.

I do agree, though, that the carbon buildup in there is probably affecting performance
 

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I do agree, though, that the carbon buildup in there is probably affecting performance[/quote]


It may enhance it as long as your gasoline can support the raise in compression.
 

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I can confirm that euro spec cars do log the AA code and trip the light.

I would be interested in the water injection cases if anyone has tried or knows of.
 

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regarding the powerchip fix. Keep in mind that powerchip borrowed a line or two of code out of a euro dme, more or less (i'm probably oversimplifying).

I had noticed a few years ago, when we started seeing the carbon build up SES lights in US spec cars, that none of our european members had it. The engines are the same, and i didn't buy that it was just a fuel issue. I emailed powerchip and mentioned this to them, and asked if they could look into a euro dme to see if secondary air flow was actually monitored (with regard to the SES light). It wasn't so, so the "fix" was relatively simple, take some code from a euro dme (which does not check for sec. air flow) and apply it to the US dme.
Not sure if that is entirely true, I have seen 2 E39 M5's with the AA code, both Euro cars, both in the UK.

Richie.
 

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funny how I have read some comments on here that carbon buildup doesn't effect performance and all you need it the powerchip flash. Those pictures look like performance is greatly reduced.
That's because we're talking about two different things here. Carbon build-up that blocks the secondary air passages creating "the issue" with emissions testing, SES light, etc, doesn't affect engine performance. Additional carbon build-up like shown on those pistons and combustion chambers most likely did have an effect on performance in this M5 -- they look awful.
 

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CBU and secondary emissions

As everyone has said great post! I have a 2000 M5 with 68k miles. i did not pass a recent smog check in CA. This was due to secondary fan not running and CBU in the secondary air ports. Not sure if my car is a lemon but a ihad t replace the right bank of Vanos at 62k miles ( cost $4800) my car has burned a ton of oil i quart every 700-1000 miles since i got purchased it as the seconf owner with 32k miles on it. I tried to get BMW to take repsonsinility for the excessive oil consumption at 42k miles and thay did some ($3000) fix that i think was replacing the rings?? My car runs ok but seems under powered for the last 6 months or so. ANyway i now need to pass smog and after that i think i need to leave the car behind, $8k for the CBU and a possibilty as said by the BMW mechanic that replaced my VANOS sytem that the other side could go at any time or last another 100k miles is concerning. By the way I drive the car hard so i do think the CBU is not from lack of spirited driving more likely excessive oil consumption.
 

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Why would you think your car would not have the secondary air injection system.
ALL s62's have them, regardless of market, europe, canada, usa. They all have this system. The ONLY difference is cars in euro spec trim (i.e. not north america) do not monitor for the effectiveness of the system, so it can and will clog, but will not turn on an SES light. A code will be stored, however, but it does not trip the light in a euro car.
Beg to differ, it does store a code and it does trip the SES light. The code is AA...............
 

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Has anyone got any practical experience in water injection with our beasts? At least I would expect that there are 8 injection nozzles required to ensure even mix in every cylinder. Either they would have to be fitted in the butterfly assembly or below the intake trumpets within the air intake box.
 

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I am actually well aware of what PC offers and I know exactly how it works. My comments was this, if you have thrown the SES for carbon build up your internals most likely look like this, maybe slightly better but... Still very bad thus the reason for the SES. The general consensus on the M5 board was "the carbon build up SES doesn't effect performance" After looking at those pictures I would say it effect performance greatly.

These are not separate issues, they both come from carbon build up and if you are getting or had the code in the past your engine will most likely look like this when it is torn down.

I agree with what some have said about higher octane fuel and driving the car hard. For instance I have a MY00 that just turned 87k, I just removed my headers and the Exhaust ports look brand new on each and every exhaust port. Not 1 bit of excess carbon. My car was an S2 and I ran the dog piss out of it daily. I also ran 100 octane often 2 times per month.

I wonder if the carbon build up is more common on the west coast that the east coast. Maybe someone should do a poll.

Ryan

That's because we're talking about two different things here. Carbon build-up that blocks the secondary air passages creating "the issue" with emissions testing, SES light, etc, doesn't affect engine performance. Additional carbon build-up like shown on those pistons and combustion chambers most likely did have an effect on performance in this M5 -- they look awful.
 

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We get better fuel here on the east coast, higher octane and less oxygenation. Headers will def help with cyl scavenging, and in turn, will help get more carbon out of the cylinder. My exhaust ports looked new as well when we did my SS headers, I cant imagine them being any worse than before they were installed. A good induction flush every other oilservice would certainly help clear out the carbon in the cyl and on the valves.

As for the Secondary Air System itself only helps raise EGTs during the enrichment cycle to aid in catalyst lightoff....it doesnt affect performance. The carbon buildup that we're seeing in the motors that are torn apart is the cause of the flow too low, not vice versa. My guess is that those cars were driven gently most of the time, probably in low speed traffic. They've probably never seen a drop of 100 octane (or higher) gasoline, and probably never ever had an induction system flush done. IMHO, it looks like those engines were treated as appliances more than high performance engines.
 

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...These are not separate issues, they both come from carbon build up and if you are getting or had the code in the past your engine will most likely look like this when it is torn down. ...

Maybe someone should do a poll.
On post #36 of this thread you'll see some pix from a tear-down of one of our members' engine w/ ~100k mi. The BMW techs who inspected the engine said that the tear-down presented a normal, well maintained engine with the exception of carbon-blocked SAS passages. The owner of this car had S2 upgrades, used the best gas, and 'drove the car as intended'. The owner obtained agreement from BMWNA for a goodwill repair.

The evidence we have indicates that if we were to tear down a bunch of engines with the SAS carbon problem we'd find combustion chamber carbon build up ranging from nasty, to 'normal'. This would indicate that the SAS problem is not related to customer upkeep issues as BMW would have us believe. Rather, the issue is caused by a design weakness that makes the SAS passages suseptible to a chronic carbon deposition process that is surprisingly unaffected by the obvious variables (oil consumption, driving habits, gas used, etc).

Here is the carbon build up poll from a couple of years ago. Data were collected from 20+ members with the carbon problem.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/58145-poll-carbon-build-up-issue-all-members-please-read.html

<O:pHere is my analysis of the poll results.
</O:p<O:p</O:p
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/63737-carbon-build-up-issue-survey-results.html

I have the letters challenging BMWNA on this issue that I can post if interested.

Dave
 
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