BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums banner

61 - 80 of 81 Posts

·
Premium Member
E60 M5 and building engines
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #61
It's up to you on how keen you are to validate injector failure as the root cause... Based on what i had read in a post by Jim, he had a locked injector which caused engine damage, it seemed that the injector was locked wide open and flooded the cylinder to an extent which caused hydrolock. The theory has been that dirt or debris escaped past the fuel filter and blocked the injector so that it was locked open, hence the term "injector lock". Others here have mentioned that the fuel filters can break down and possibly the cause of the debris.

IMO a partially leaking injector wouldn't seem to be enough to cause hydrolock. Engine damage by hydrolock generally requires a fairly significant amount of fluid (incompressible) and cannot escape through the valves which then causes something to bend. Seems like your bent rod is fairly conclusive as to actual hydrolock.

Now what was the fluid? It could have been coolant, gas, or just water like driving through deep water or starting the car when that cylinder was flooded with water. If the latter, you'd see no evidence of any steam cleaning as it was on a cold engine and that cylinder was first to be in the compression stroke. Lots of people try to start up cars that have been in a flood. That's why flooded cars at auction go for CHEAP.

Perhaps the car was totaled due to a flood, and that's why the engine was pulled.
Hello gmtegear,

All good information and theories. I am on "hold" for engine #2 disassembly, but believe if I pull rod#9 it will be also be bent, and this engine shows signs of "steam cleaning piston" aka water in bore.

I may get injectors tested or "self test" for wide open. My thoughts on partial injector stinking would also an injector to "leak down" after engine shut-off and fuel pressure still on rail. Don't know if that would be enough volume of fuel to actually hydro-lock engine, but a theory at 12:1 compression.

The comment on possible debris getting by the fuel filter also gives credit to failure on bank 2 as noted by ticat928 as fuel rail feeds directly to #8 fuel injector! Injectors #7 & #6 are "dead headed" and fuel move along the rail to #9, #10, then #'s 5-1, dead headed at #1.

Pics below again for direct compare: 1st pic is engine #1, cylinder #8, 2nd pic is engine #2, cylinder #9

Mr. P
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
E60 M5 and building engines
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #62
Hi!
This is very similar to how my block looked after pouring 20L of fuel out when chainging oil...

I gotta go for injector failure leading to hydrolock, killing the rings and giving scaring.. And I think The 9cyl is The result of injector at cyl 8 spillning over doing same, but less damage to 9th cyl.
Hello Kickinit,

You also mentioned 20l of fuel in oil when changing oil?

I understand this engine holds a LOT of oil, but when I emptied my pan on the floor and captured the rest, it was thin and still had a large quantity to capture!.....Still waiting on Blackstone Labs for results.

Could this be a hydro-lock issue. If oil level is too high at sump/pan, could it work its way into the cylinders? Through PCV system?

HMMMM?

Mr. P
 

·
Premium Member
E60 M5 and building engines
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #63
That`s my call. Couple of faults and always on cyl 8. Coincidence?
Hello //Martuci,

Your theory has new ground. Sorry for wrongly not noting you, //Martuci, on last post!

NOTE: VERY Clever with the leading // looks VERY "M"

Debris could affect bank 2 more quickly to fuel rail. Sad if this is the case, but could happen!/?

Mr. P
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
417 Posts
Just to rationalize a few things. 20l is over 5 US gallons. Perhaps that was a typo. The engine only displaces 5.0l and I'd assume there was already ~8 liters of oil in the sump. I don't see how that 20l of fuel could be contained anywhere other than the fuel tank. Moreover, the fuel pump would have to be pumping at max capacity for a few minutes straight to fill anything to 20l.

I think it's very likely that the engines that you have received were pulled from cars that were totaled due to flooding. If you had a coolant leak then you'd have major head gasket leak, warped head, or crack in the block. It makes alot of sense to evaluate your head and block since you are going to reuse these and there is some doubt on the root cause of the prior hydrolock.
 

·
Premium Member
E60 M5 and building engines
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #65
Hello gmtegear,

As always like your comments, but have some Q's

Bore scaring was NOT caused by hydro-lock. It could have damaged the rod, but then the engine would have had to be started and run to the point it melded pistons to bore.

I have two engines and evidence from a posted engine for a total of three. They did not all take a swim....statistically speaking.

No oil dip stick for BMW...Does it register OVER FILL? I do not know. What if a slow leaking injector caused the excess of gas/oil in pan? Could it not go back througth the PCV system (though intake) and cause hydro-lock?

I have another contact that states his family S85 is getting 5-8mpg! WHAT? Where is the fuel going? Something is WRONG! It, the S85, is be no means the most efficient engine, but still should be in the mid to high teens as for as MPG as it is only 5.0l

I am looking for any and all theories and LOVE this sight!

Mr. P
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
417 Posts
Hydrolocked cylinder -> bent con rod -> scored cylinder. The top edges of the piston are never supposed to contact the cylinder, but if the rod was bent, then that can cause the heavy scoring you've seen.

A car that has sufficient battery power will easily turn over the engine regardless if there is water in any of the cylinder. At some point the person starting the car will realise it's not going to start, so they give up. The scrapes seem to be very clean indicating that they were not subjected to combustion.

There are alot of M5/M6 that get totaled due to flooding. They get sold at auction for a few thousand dollars and people part out the car. It makes alot of sense that these engines end up on eBay. They are perfect candidates for a bore and stroke project. Do you have the VINs for the cars that the engines came out of? You'd have to rely on the seller to be honest, the VIN is not etched on the powertrain, the serial number of the engine and trans is separate and BMW knows to which VIN they were married to but I don't think this info is publically accessible.

IMO it is really important to find root cause, since you otherwise don't know what else may be bad. This is why I suggested having your injectors tested, either yourself or by someone. If they all work fine, I say'd you can rule out the locked injector theory.

The biggest factor on fuel economy is the driver's right foot. 10-13 MPG is not abnormal for this car. It doesn't help that we "should" warm the car up for like 5 min before driving it either. This is why the federal fuel economy standard is done on a prescribed drive cycle on dynos, the facility is actually in AA.
 

·
Premium Member
E60 M5 and building engines
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #67
Hello ALL!

New information from Engine #2 tear-down. As suspected, rod #9 is bent. This again explains the cylinder scaring and piston deterioration in cylinder #9.

No valve contact, so again suspecting a hydro-lock situation.

Fully believe the events on both engines where:
1) Hydro-lock condition resulting in bent rod
2) Engine was ran (as in running....not starter cranking) and damaged bore.

Now have to research condtion that caused hydro-lock! Engine #1 shows no signs of head gasket failure or other water intrusion. Engine #2 shows some "steam cleaning" on cylinder #9, but head gasket still looks intact and head/block also do not indicate fluid transfer from coolant.

Pics below from engine #2

Mr. P
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
82 Posts
Hello ALL!

New information from Engine #2 tear-down. As suspected, rod #9 is bent. This again explains the cylinder scaring and piston deterioration in cylinder #9.
Hello Mr. P
Not surprised at all to be honest. Another theory of mine which is a bit hard to confirm , is that injector 8 could still fail, filling the cylinder or volume above cylinder 8 in case more close to TDC , thus fuel will find it self a route to next closest cylinder via the Idle air gallery fitted in the head and fill next one i.e. cyl 9 in eng#2. Just I am not sure this washed face of piston 9 is it done by continuous extra rich mixture /leaking inj 9/ or just long time soaked in fuel till you try start your engine, and than BAAMM as by theory described above.
Easiest way to check if inj #8 and #9 are totally failed is to connect with aerosol can like brake cleaner or wd-40 let say, and see if they leak when you apply pressure.
Check video of the mentioned earlier topic "Boom goes dynamite" started by Jim who had inj 8 failed as well.
 

·
Premium Member
E60 M5 and building engines
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #69
Hello Mr. P
Not surprised at all to be honest. Another theory of mine which is a bit hard to confirm , is that injector 8 could still fail, filling the cylinder or volume above cylinder 8 in case more close to TDC , thus fuel will find it self a route to next closest cylinder via the Idle air gallery fitted in the head and fill next one i.e. cyl 9 in eng#2. Just I am not sure this washed face of piston 9 is it done by continuous extra rich mixture /leaking inj 9/ or just long time soaked in fuel till you try start your engine, and than BAAMM as by theory described above.
Easiest way to check if inj #8 and #9 are totally failed is to connect with aerosol can like brake cleaner or wd-40 let say, and see if they leak when you apply pressure.
Check video of the mentioned earlier topic "Boom goes dynamite" started by Jim who had inj 8 failed as well.
Hello //Martuci,

Interested in your theory. Want to learn more and study! Please give me some time to digest.

Inspected Rod #10 from Engine #1 today and it also bent/deformed (pics below). This is the cylinder that just started showing signs of scaring in the bore towards the front of engine at 90deg to thrust angle of piston.

Looking forward to learning more and thank you for the response.

Mr. P
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
E60 M5 and building engines
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #70
What are your plans for the block? Bore it out for a stroker? The cost to get it back to factory spec has got to be close to building a stroker especially with it already gutted. Guess you could also make a nice coffee table.
Hi!
This is very similar to how my block looked after pouring 20L of fuel out when chainging oil...

I gotta go for injector failure leading to hydrolock, killing the rings and giving scaring.. And I think The 9cyl is The result of injector at cyl 8 spillning over doing same, but less damage to 9th cyl.
Hello Kickinit,

Finally received my Black Stone lab results. HIGH fuel content in oil and low oil viscosity!

Quote from Black Stone:
Note the low flashpoint of this sample, which suggests fuel dilution at about 5.3% of the sample.
The viscosity tested thin as well (for either a 0W/40 or 50-weight oil), likely as a result of the fuel. Also, the
oil additives (and probably the wear metals too) are diluted, likely because of the fuel. In other words: this
engine appears to have a fuel problem, and we can't really tell how well the engine's wearing because the
fuel is diluting things. Watch for a rising oil level to detect a fuel problem. Change this oil and use short oil
runs as long as fuel is an issue.

Mr. P
 

·
Premium Member
E60 M5 and building engines
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #72
Hello flacoramos,

Will send next week. Need to redact personal info.

Mr. P
 

·
Premium Member
E60 M5 and building engines
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #74
Hello gmtegear,

As always like your comments, but have some Q's

Bore scaring was NOT caused by hydro-lock. It could have damaged the rod, but then the engine would have had to be started and run to the point it melded pistons to bore.

I have two engines and evidence from a posted engine for a total of three. They did not all take a swim....statistically speaking.

No oil dip stick for BMW...Does it register OVER FILL? I do not know. What if a slow leaking injector caused the excess of gas/oil in pan? Could it not go back througth the PCV system (though intake) and cause hydro-lock?

I have another contact that states his family S85 is getting 5-8mpg! WHAT? Where is the fuel going? Something is WRONG! It, the S85, is be no means the most efficient engine, but still should be in the mid to high teens as for as MPG as it is only 5.0l

I am looking for any and all theories and LOVE this sight!

Mr. P
Hello ALL!

Still leaning on the excess gas in oil leading to hydro-lock through PCV system and bending rods.

My reasoning is the "oily black" on all cylinders on both engines with exceptions of engine #2, bore #9.

A good running engines should be light brown on pistons, very light brown on exhaust valves, and black acceptable in intake valves.

Pics below and welcome ALL comments/theories/ideas!

Mr. P
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,225 Posts
Sad to see how some maintain the S85 , reminds me of the time I picked up a 1967 Beaumont (Chevelle in the US) from a farmers field .
No oil on dipstick, popped the valve cover of 230 c.i. 6-cylinder, it was a jello mold of solidified oil, no valves rocker arms or springs visible, all encapsulated in a solid block of jello like oil
 

·
Premium Member
E60 M5 and building engines
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #76
Sad to see how some maintain the S85 , reminds me of the time I picked up a 1967 Beaumont (Chevelle in the US) from a farmers field .
No oil on dipstick, popped the valve cover of 230 c.i. 6-cylinder, it was a jello mold of solidified oil, no valves rocker arms or springs visible, all encapsulated in a solid block of jello like oil
Hello tecat928,

Thank you for sharing your pain!

I am committed to the S85 as it, a V10, will not be produced in the coming years. All Turbo or electric. They will be faster, but no have the "music". I used to LOVE F1 racing and the "SHREIK" the cars made....now?....grrr...does not make my skin crawl....I miss the "music" of a high revving N/A engine.

Please note: I am in the discover phase of failure. I had "MUD" in bank 1, but the bores are smooth. Bank 2 on both engines failed and have bent rods for each bore occurrence. GRRR!

Engine#1 sat for five years! Heads are completely salvageable, but will need full rebuild. Issue was not mud/gunk....still believe fuel injectors caused issue on both engines.

Is bank 2 more suspectable to failure? My data indicates YES, but only a small sample size and I was not aware that the S85 was prone to bore failure.

Mr. P
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,225 Posts
Hello tecat928,

Thank you for sharing your pain!

I am committed to the S85 as it, a V10, will not be produced in the coming years. All Turbo or electric. They will be faster, but no have the "music". I used to LOVE F1 racing and the "SHREIK" the cars made....now?....grrr...does not make my skin crawl....I miss the "music" of a high revving N/A engine.

Please note: I am in the discover phase of failure. I had "MUD" in bank 1, but the bores are smooth. Bank 2 on both engines failed and have bent rods for each bore occurrence. GRRR!

Engine#1 sat for five years! Heads are completely salvageable, but will need full rebuild. Issue was not mud/gunk....still believe fuel injectors caused issue on both engines.

Is bank 2 more suspectable to failure? My data indicates YES, but only a small sample size and I was not aware that the S85 was prone to bore failure.

Mr. P
Yes the aluminum bores are more prone to failure under abusive conditions.

Do not understand how Owners expect an F1 derived 8300 rpm motor can get by being treated like low specific output domestic v8 or 6.

However the advantages of a aluminum bore outweighs the disadvantages

No thermal stress or liner shift from differential expansion rates, much better heat path to coolant allows higher specific output without preignition and other thermal issues.

For such a high performance motor not to have oil pressure gage or afr monitoring as part of the gauge pack is inexcusable

Or for an owner to ignore a check engine light triggered by stuck injectors is also inexcusable
 

·
Premium Member
E60 M5 and building engines
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #78
Hello //Martuci,

Interested in your theory. Want to learn more and study! Please give me some time to digest.

Inspected Rod #10 from Engine #1 today and it also bent/deformed (pics below). This is the cylinder that just started showing signs of scaring in the bore towards the front of engine at 90deg to thrust angle of piston.

Looking forward to learning more and thank you for the response.

Mr. P
Hello //Martuci,

I am now ACTIVELY chasing your theory. All my butterfly intakes look clean, but need to investigate IAC system and PCV to IAC.

Cylinders are too oily to explain "fuel only" issue.

Thank you,
Mr. P
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
82 Posts
Hello Mr. P
I highly doubt PCV system has something to the with the fuel. Crank case ventilation separators are fitted in the plenums. Each one has IN from on side the head cover and OUT - to on side head.There are 2 more pipes, one on each plenum which takes the condensation and eventually oil residue directly from the plenums to the engine block, further down to the crank case. So I dont think fuel can be introduce in this system .
Btw, on the picture bellow I believe from engine number 1, did you remove the oil spray nozzles your self or it was missing, and what about the rest?

greetings,
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
E60 M5 and building engines
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #80
Hello Mr. P
I highly doubt PCV system has something to the with the fuel. Crank case ventilation separators are fitted in the plenums. Each one has IN from on side the head cover and OUT - to on side head.There are 2 more pipes, one on each plenum which takes the condensation and eventually oil residue directly from the plenums to the engine block, further down to the crank case. So I dont think fuel can be introduce in this system .
Btw, on the picture bellow I believe from engine number 1, did you remove the oil spray nozzles your self or it was missing, and what about the rest?

greetings,
Thank you again //Martuci!

I did remove oil squirters. This pic was just before putting blocks on a skid. Sent both blocks out to machine shop for inspection and current recommendation is to 'iron sleeve". Shop has many contacts and experience with Alusil bores.

I just cannot understand why both engines are so "oily" in the combustion chambers. Why are rods bent on bad bores?

Open to any all theories/ideas and truly appreciate your input.

Best regards and stay safe,
Mr. P
 
61 - 80 of 81 Posts
Top