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Discussion Starter · #41 · (Edited)
I get that this is your baby but you are not helping yourself. I don't mean to give you ****e but... your screeners were horrible and you don't answer the questions and then you have an excuse for everything.

MY APOLOGIES I will post new screens after my drive tomorrow .

I asked when the exhaust was smoked no answer but how did that leak not get noticed.

IT WAS DONE WHEN HEADERS WERE INSTALLED WHICH IS ABOUT 2 YEARS AGO IF MEMORY SERVES ME WELL, after having a small dent in my head memory sometimes fails me. Hazard of the job I guess.

If you don't present a clear picture of what is going on and answer peoples questions, how can they help you because only you have the car in front of you.

I AGREE

Fix what you can see is broken like the exhaust, test for other leaks, one thing at a time.

OK

After your trip pull your new O2 out and see if it looks wet.

I WILL DO SO

How is your oil consumption, that will also make the O2 wet. Pull the other O2 and look at it.

OIL CONSUMTION IS HARDLY ANY, I HARDLY HAD TO ADD ANY OIL.

After your trip pull your new O2 out and see if it looks wet. How is your oil consumption, that will also make the O2 wet. Pull the other O2 and look at it.

OK

Have you had the injectors ultra sonic cleaned?

YES, BEFORE I LEFT AND STORED THE CAR, NEVER NOTICED ANY LEAK.

Not a suggestion, there is new evidence that removes a coating on some injectors, not sure if that coating is on our injectors, but I have sent out a few sets for cleaning and they all leaked.

INTERESTING

Usually you have hard start problems with leaking injectors, but not always. How fast does the car fire up? 1 sec or 2 for it to fire?

ONE CRANK AND IT STARTS UP NO PROBLEM.

You don't have to throw parts at the car, but you have to do the work to diagnose it.

馃挴%

Does the car still smell bad? Pay attention on your drive tomorrow.

MUCH LESS THAN BEFORE BUT LIMITED DRIVING.

Last question, has the car been tuned for all these exhaust mods?

NO
Thank you again for the help, it really is much appreciated.
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
Very small update after doing about 30 miles on the car. It seems the adaptations are more in check with what it should be. Sensors are working.

I will be addressing the small leak after upstream sensor as well but over the weekend.

952520
952521
 

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The puzzling thing is if you have a leaking injector that should show up in the fuel trims at least in the additive. Maybe since you cleared adaptions that has gone into the idle air trims and not in the additive. A leaking injector or several have less effect as the rpm/injector duty cycle go up.
What are the fuel trims with the car running? After your next drive don't turn it off, plug in and grab those readings. If they are bouncing around then just tell us the highs and lows you are seeing. Maybe it is something in the way INPA reports that info, as I said I don't use it, but something is not adding up. That said I rarely look at fuel trims without the car running because I want to look for spikes as I go through the ranges, but my scanner logs data and I look at graphs.
Does the car still stink like it is rich? Maybe the bad O2 and that exhaust leak were making it rich but the lack of power is from a vanos issue? Just because work has been done on the vanos does not mean the system will stay perfect. Although it is rare for the new design CPS to fail it is not unheard of.
Edit Just in the off chance and since this is a basic test, unplug the MAFs and drive around for 30 miles and see if you notice any differences, maybe the car pulls better. MAFs can go at anytime.
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 · (Edited)
The puzzling thing is if you have a leaking injector that should show up in the fuel trims at least in the additive. Maybe since you cleared adaptions that has gone into the idle air trims and not in the additive. A leaking injector or several have less effect as the rpm/injector duty cycle go up.
What are the fuel trims with the car running? After your next drive don't turn it off, plug in and grab those readings. If they are bouncing around then just tell us the highs and lows you are seeing. Maybe it is something in the way INPA reports that info, as I said I don't use it, but something is not adding up. That said I rarely look at fuel trims without the car running because I want to look for spikes as I go through the ranges, but my scanner logs data and I look at graphs.
Does the car still stink like it is rich? Maybe the bad O2 and that exhaust leak were making it rich but the lack of power is from a vanos issue? Just because work has been done on the vanos does not mean the system will stay perfect. Although it is rare for the new design CPS to fail it is not unheard of.
Edit Just in the off chance and since this is a basic test, unplug the MAFs and drive around for 30 miles and see if you notice any differences, maybe the car pulls better. MAFs can go at anytime.
I just completed 150 mile drive and I took some highways I know free if cops. I stretched it鈥檚 legs reallly well, 馃槀 I made my 78 mile trip in 42 min using some awesome highways free of traffic. The car feels stronger but still not like it was.

I am tired now but will do everything you suggested, the car returned 18.x mpg reading at speeds over ... digits. In cruise at 80mph it was sitting at 21.5 instant so not there as before.

I will install my GoPro and record fuel trims tomorrow or Sunday as I have another long drive over 120 miles one way.

The car doesn鈥檛 stick as bad anymore, especially after my slightly spirited drive today, and feels stronger.

I used to road trip 600 miles plus in this car at 80mph constant and I would just about do 400+ to a tank. Best I can do now is about 320 miles. Same road, sale speeds, different results.

Brand new mafs were installed from the dealer right before I left 1.5 years and they have maybe 500 miles on them. It鈥檚 the bottom end that鈥檚 missing, it鈥檚 very noticeable as I have to rev the car out like my e46 m3 I had before instead of instant push into the seat.

I鈥檓 about to ship this thing to your house, 馃槤

I will report back tomorrow but before I go to sleep, I鈥檒l upload screen shots and a video from INPA. The exhaust doesn鈥檛 smell at all when I pulled into garage.

Short video of INPA - dash ( I need to fix pixels ) exhaust note ( the white is water ) I haven鈥檛 seen that in a while and the exhaust is black.
Hope this helps somehow.

Video
 

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Another thing worth mentioning- particularly in a cold climate is the thermostat.
What temperature is your engine running at (in INPA) with the A/C and heater off @ a steady 80km/h in 5th.
It needs to be over 80掳C
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
Another thing worth mentioning- particularly in a cold climate is the thermostat.
What temperature is your engine running at (in INPA) with the A/C and heater off @ a steady 80km/h in 5th.
It needs to be over 80掳C
Brand new TS installed also before I left as it was stuck open and it鈥檚 79-81 depending on temps outside. Today was at 81c
 

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Brand new mafs were installed from the dealer right before I left 1.5 years and they have maybe 500 miles on them. It鈥檚 the bottom end that鈥檚 missing, it鈥檚 very noticeable as I have to rev the car out like my e46 m3 I had before instead of instant push into the seat.
Unplugging the MAFs does a couple of other things, so just try it. Bottom end is vanos more often than not. Complaints have been made by people that did exhaust mods without a tune also,you had the headers on before but your new work could now make the headers flow better and better flow needs a tune. The thing is there are other adaptions in that area also like ICV, it goes up to around 2000 rpm depending on throttle position. Strangely there is also an adaption for the pedal, no idea what it affects.
You have other evidence but Butt dynos are notoriously bad and change frequently. When I was driving my M5 and weekending my RS4 I thought the M5 pulled great, but the RS4 was incredible. Once I started driving the RS4 I got used to that and thought the M5 was sick, it was not my Butt dyno lost calibration.
 

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Another thing worth mentioning
Could you check your car for analog 3 the bottom two lines about air and injector bandwidth? I looked at a bunch of other shots in random posts but I have no idea what the correct numbers are any more. From the look of the tail pipes in the video the car does not seem to be rich any more.
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 · (Edited)
Unplugging the MAFs does a couple of other things, so just try it. Bottom end is vanos more often than not. Complaints have been made by people that did exhaust mods without a tune also,you had the headers on before but your new work could now make the headers flow better and better flow needs a tune. The thing is there are other adaptions in that area also like ICV, it goes up to around 2000 rpm depending on throttle position. Strangely there is also an adaption for the pedal, no idea what it affects.
You have other evidence but Butt dynos are notoriously bad and change frequently. When I was driving my M5 and weekending my RS4 I thought the M5 pulled great, but the RS4 was incredible. Once I started driving the RS4 I got used to that and thought the M5 was sick, it was not my Butt dyno lost calibration.
I know butt dyno can get used to power, but driving my 540 for a year than jumping into m5 didn鈥檛 seem that drastic in power increase.

I鈥檓 going by WOT in 1st gear where the car won鈥檛 even loose traction, I鈥檓 not speaking about dumping clutch, just going wot while clutch engaged.Who would you recommend for tune? The car back fires when I let of the throttle, you can hear it in the video. I used to love how it would fight for traction and the rear dancing around.

btw, I love the rs4, my friend has a fully built one with a supercharger. Beautiful car
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
Could you check your car for analog 3 the bottom two lines about air and injector bandwidth? I looked at a bunch of other shots in random posts but I have no idea what the correct numbers are any more. From the look of the tail pipes in the video the car does not seem to be rich any more.
I will tomorrow, in bed now but I think it鈥檚 in the video?

Going by the smell I do not pick up any rich condition anymore. Plus the pipes look wet not white ( light from the phone makes it look white ) but no smell other than typical exhaust gasses. Adaptations also haven鈥檛 changed since yesterday driving.
 

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I love the rs4, my friend has a fully built one with a supercharger.
I build them with twin turbos and electronic waste gates from a russian genius. No better than a single just easier to place things when you use two.
I don't know about tuners, I have no luck with them. Fortunately I bought the first twin turbo and have been able to modify that tune, but I have been through 3 tuners and the first guy kept the first build on the hoist for almost 2 years.
It looked white to me but I got you said it was water and the water is a by product of the cats doing their job. When they are rich you don't get much water because of the chemistry, if they are producing water you must be close to the right mix.
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
I build them with twin turbos and electronic waste gates from a russian genius. No better than a single just easier to place things when you use two.
I don't know about tuners, I have no luck with them. Fortunately I bought the first twin turbo and have been able to modify that tune, but I have been through 3 tuners and the first guy kept the first build on the hoist for almost 2 years.
It looked white to me but I got you said it was water and the water is a by product of the cats doing their job. When they are rich you don't get much water because of the chemistry, if they are producing water you must be close to the right mix.
Good morning.

It鈥檚 off topic but do you have any images of the car and build? What size turbos, which manifolds? The rs4 is holding its value really well and I drove one and felt like e46 m3, not as good at turn in but over feeing was close.

Today I have a far drive ( 100 miles plus one way ) so let鈥檚 see what happens and how it behaves. I wanted to ask another question, would a faulty fuel pump or weak pump cause issues? Pump supposed to be brand new but I read sometimes 540 pump goes in ( they are identical visually )

Today on my drive which screen should I record in INPA? I got my GoPro ready.

Thank you
 

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It鈥檚 off topic but do you have any images of the car and build?
It is off topic, and not fair to others, but there are a few pics already posted in some other threads. I talk M5s here, Audi's on my other forum and diesels in my truck forum, but not on each other. I don't like it when others go on about their "other" cars, so I don't do it.
would a faulty fuel pump or weak pump cause issues? Pump supposed to be brand new but I read sometimes 540 pump goes in
I don't know if a 540 pump can run a M5 or not. It has been debated here a few times. There are a few things that concern me, the specs are not the exact same and electrically there is a new load in the M5 that is not present on a 540 I don't think. IIRC correctly 504s just have a pump relay that goes on and off, but the M5 has that electronic relay that changes the voltage. It is pretty clear one of the after market furl pumps can't handle that changing voltage as they fail sometime after there are installed. They appear to handle the specs of fuel deliver as they return enough fuel to drive the transfer pump for the two tanks. That is where you would see a problem first all the fuel would not be in the pass tank all the time and the fuel would not transfer at 2.5 liters per min at idle.
It is possible you have the first symptoms of a 540 pump not handling the changing voltage, if you have one. The changing volts happens when the supply is strong IE stop and go or very light pedal use. Then you get on the gas and the pump does not instantly jump to full pressure, so the car would go lean and you would be down on power. You should see that in the fuel trims, there would be some spikes in the Short trim, which I think is additive, sorry I do everything in OBDII because that is where I learned.
If you what to record something record your fuel trims for your whole drive and look at them when after, you might want to record the air demand to give yourself a reference. I would record calc load but you don't have that. Air volume is analog 3 first in the bottom line.
A faulty pump would likely have other symptoms or signs in the fuel trims.
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 · (Edited)
Small update. I have been driving the car around and as miles increase power increased but from 2000-4000rpms it鈥檚 still the same, fuel consumption improved slightly, 2mpg or so.
I will be addressing bank 1 vanos unit but getting replacement. Bank 2 was replaced already from dr vanos and bank 1 fails the test.

These are my symptoms:

A failing M5 Vanos can cause a rough idle and lack of power throughout the rev range. The biggest cause of Vanos issues on this engine is the solenoids and seals.

The solenoids have been cleaned before and tested. This is the last step I haven鈥檛 taken to address the loss of power.
 

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The solenoids have been cleaned before and tested.
How you clean them is important. Brake cleaner or air in a can, might do the trick, but really a compressor is the thing to have. Blasting them out then soaking them and re-blasting them several hours later is how I have always done the job. They can still leak even if clean, that means replace or put all your leaky ones in the outlet position.
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 · (Edited)
How you clean them is important. Brake cleaner or air in a can, might do the trick, but really a compressor is the thing to have. Blasting them out then soaking them and re-blasting them several hours later is how I have always done the job. They can still leak even if clean, that means replace or put all your leaky ones in the outlet position.
100% certain it鈥檚 not solenoids as they were swapped with a working pair from bank 2 and vanos still fails on bank 1.

Doing the vanos from what I see is not that hard, and there is a diy how to do it without touch timing which was also checked.

Missing power is especially felt below 4000 rpm along with motor having slight vibration, but that does explain higher fuel consumption. 馃

 

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100% certain it鈥檚 not solenoids as they were swapped with a working pair from bank 2 and vanos still fails on bank 1.
Have you ever replaced your main chain tensioner? All the slack in the system shows up for bank one.
Do you have any clear screeners of your vanos test? Where does the car fail in the test? Have you done the test with someone working the gas pedal so the car does not fall below 700 rpm? I am not there nor have I driven your car, but the down on power in that range is the wrong volume of exhaust gas gets returned. That is the job of the vanos. It is in the time the vanos is doing a lot of hydraulic changes so any part of the hydraulics could be guilty or even some of the mechanics so very hard to pin point.
 

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Discussion Starter · #58 ·
Have you ever replaced your main chain tensioner? All the slack in the system shows up for bank one.
Do you have any clear screeners of your vanos test? Where does the car fail in the test? Have you done the test with someone working the gas pedal so the car does not fall below 700 rpm? I am not there nor have I driven your car, but the down on power in that range is the wrong volume of exhaust gas gets returned. That is the job of the vanos. It is in the time the vanos is doing a lot of hydraulic changes so any part of the hydraulics could be guilty or even some of the mechanics so very hard to pin point.
Tensioner was replaced. I do not have screen shots as the shop didn鈥檛 take them, I could redo the test but for 100$ a pop I rather buy GT1 kit from eBay for 500$ and do it myself. It will also allow me to active abs and such while bleeding brakes.

This is why I鈥檒l simply get fresh vanos from dr vanos and replace it. This should address this issue for good.

 

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Tensioner was replaced. I do not have screen shots as the shop didn鈥檛 take them, I could redo the test but for 100$ a pop I rather buy GT1 kit from eBay for 500$ and do it myself. It will also allow me to active abs and such while bleeding brakes.
So you had shop do it, don't bother with any of what I said I assumed you were doing it yourself. I am not trusting of the VANOs test. I messed with it when I first got the stuff and could change the results by doing things. Also different cars behaved differently, never could figure that out. Some would dam near stall or might even stall but others would run pretty normal. Then there was the time I replaced the bank one hydraulics on someone else's car and got the same results, was I embarrassed. Then I changed the tensioner and everything was fine. I never mentioned anything other than to say, yep all fixed. I did pay for the tensioner myself out of guilt. Those were the early days before any of us knew though.
 

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Sorry if I missed a few posts in between, but how's the fuel itself?
I had E10 shell whatever fuel in my E39 M5 without any stabilizer for about 1 year.
It took me at least 2 fill ups before the car was normal again. Until then, I had horrible exhaust smell and HC, NOx levels through the roof!

You should also check your engine oil as well. I had Ester based racing engine oil that just went crazy and the engine was burning a qt of oil per 200km.

A oil change, several premium fuel fill ups, and spirited driving brought my HC, NOx level right down. And the exhaust doesn't smell anymore when warmed up.

Hope you can get the issue sorted.

Cheers,
Gabe
 
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