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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Gents,



Hope everyone still hanging around here are doing well and are enjoying their M5s!


About a year ago I rebuilt my S38B36 engine and the engine is well ''ran in''. Engine pulls hard and is silky smooth! A joy to drive. I am however looking to give it a little more oomph and I have been toying with the idea of fitting the 3.8 cam gears on the B36. I read a lot on this subject but so far all I found has been anecdotal evidence this is a worth while upgrade. I was hoping some of the more technically knowledgeable guys here could chip in.

By fitting the 3.8 cams you will effectively increase torque and HP in the mid-range but give up torque and HP in the top-end. Although I am looking to increase mid-range torque and HP I am not willing to give up top-end power for this. Simply because the high-revving character of the S38B36 is what makes it an appealing engine to me.

So I have read that many people combine the swap to 3.8 cam gears with the Dinan chip. Looking at the Dinan chip (no idea if this is still available?) if relies heavily in increasing top-end power and torque figures. Said Dinan chip is not specifically configured to work with the 3.8 cam gear upgrade. Is it a safe assumption to make that by fitting the 3.8 cam gears you will get better mid-range power and torque and by fitting the Dinan chip you will retain the top-end, high revving character of the S38B36 engine?



Like to hear you guys' input!
 

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Some years ago I remember reading on the Dinan site that the Dinan chip was designed to be used with the cam gears to achieve the max power gain from stock 315 HP to 340HP. I never understood this calculus since changing the cam gears seems to move the power band toward the mid-range rather than increasing gross horsepower. I have a Dinan chip in mine, and have the cam gears yet to be installed. FYI, the intake cam part number is 11311317962; exhaust cam is 11311317964.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Yeah, there seems to be some uncertainty about the Dinan Chip. From what I read it is a generic chip that is not necessarily designed for the B36 engine with B38 cam gears.

However, taking the crazy horsepower increase into consideration it almost seems like that would only be achievable with the 3.8 cam gears. Rest assured that increase in HP will be mostly felt in the mid-range by effectively moving the powerband 'down' the rev range.

For me the biggest potential issue is altering the high revving character of the B36 engine. I had an EAT chip in my B36 and although it gave considerable gains in the mid range it most definitely decreased top-end power. I drove it for a few days before changing it back as it changed the character of the engine too much. So I guess my questions are:

- In what way do the 3.8 cam gears change the power delivery? Is there a dyno plot?
- To what extend do you really lose top-end power?
- 3.8 cam gears in conjunction with the Dinan chip will make for increased mid-range power without sacrificing top-end power and high revving character?
 

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Hey Hugo,

A Concept..

Many many factors are involved here and now you are no longer
a local street racer and you started to feel what's needed for the
track.

I think you are in the wrong direction whit the 3.8 cam gears
and making 340hp at the flywheels is all a nice cloud..., why ?

One needs to understand how all these Eprom-Chip companies do
advertise their products and many don't get it because when the
advert says put my eprom and you gain 30hp, sure you do but one
needs to understand that these 30hp gain are not at near the pick
rpm. How they calculate the gain is in a complete different way of
what a normal car enthusiasts will accept the mind from 30-40hp
gain.

The S38 is dirty engine in general because it's simply a de-tunned
race engine put in a street car...which needs to pass emissions.

There is a lot of gain to be had when the rules comes to play "Lean is Mean"...
so when you start to lean the mixture in the mid range you start to
gain power...but Nox goes up and that is not emission friendly...
my S38 B35 with Jim C. Chip runs at ~14.7-15 AFR between 2k
rpm and about ~4XXXrpm..with very little timing advanced etc..

Based on this concept the S38 is very tunable with relatively small
upgrades they do have great gains.

So if you look at the dyno chart from Dinan he gains HP by combining
the those numbers !!! what does that mean is that say at 2350rpm you
gain 5hp then at 3000rpm you gain 15hp then at 4500 you gain 20hp then at
5000rpm you gain 4hp and at pass 6000rpm you gain nothing compare
to stock. So when you combine all those numbers then they equal to
30hp but again that does not mean that the 30hp is a pure gain you have
added from 315hp up to 340hp..

You will be disappointed from the 3.8 cam gears as far as for the results
you are after.

You need to increase overlap but the problem is that the 264 cams are
already worn out and if you sent them to cam doctor you will see how
the lift from std 10.75mm dropped to low 10s because cams do ware
the nose regardless they do not show visual ware.

The nice gains you are after will come from upgrading both cams and
exhaust system, 3.8 cam gears will concentrate your gains in the mid
range but the top end pass 6000rpm the nose of your M5 will scrape
the asphalt at the Ring..and for the track you need revs !!!

I played to death with different cam durations, cam timing, and many LSA etc
..I am not sure if you have seen the nice gains I reached with cams, tune,
and fully hi flow exhaust system on a bone stock 3.6 with 260k miles on
the bottom end.

I have developed a small kit which will give you a nice gain over stock.
I had a task to myself and a target to set the torque curve as flat as possible
to my rpm bracket of 7600rpm and also the HP to be at pick near the rev limiter
were you want it to be.

My target was to set the cam timing to start pulling from about ~3700rpm
range and get hard In-Cam at 3900rpm and keep it hard to till the rev
limiter will bounce...but that does no mean that under 3700rpm the car
won't be drivable..absolute correct but that is only when you set the timing
wrong and you are making it for the worst than a stock car. I made a video
to show people that at 35mph at 5th gear I can accelerate without any troubles
and pretty quick.

If you are interest in my package I do offer intake and exhaust custom
cams and also I do offer the Tune for those cams via Eprom, you can install
the cams the chip, set the timing per my request and then go ahead and
enjoy the gains. My S38 B36 made 264rwhp with all stock components.
After the cams, full exhaust system, 3.8 injectors I was able to pull 302rwhp
the Dyno I am using is Mustang-Dyno which always reads low. But the
gain is gain done on the same dyno and the same tuner. A real true number
using a Dyno Jet is 310rwhp which is the actual number.

I hope this might give you a much different point of view. If you are interest
in my package sent me a PM.

I am attaching you a Cam timing Test to show you the actual torque curve
and hp curve. That was un-tuned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsdCD_lXeaE

Hope this helps a bit.

Regards,
Anri
 

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Anri,
This is a good explanation of how the chip builders make horsepower claims. I'd like to think that reversing the de-tune to extract the level of horsepower the S38B36 is capable of would not shorten engine life, but I suspect this is not the case. I have a Dinan chip in my car. I have hesitated installing the S38 cam gears and likely will not based on your elaboration about how this modification works in practice. I am even considering putting the stock chip back in my car as I think the Dinan tune does not add that much and I believe it contributes to pre-detonation, a very bad thing for these engines.
 

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Anri,
This is a good explanation of how the chip builders make horsepower claims. I'd like to think that reversing the de-tune to extract the level of horsepower the S38B36 is capable of would not shorten engine life, but I suspect this is not the case. I have a Dinan chip in my car. I have hesitated installing the S38 cam gears and likely will not based on your elaboration about how this modification works in practice. I am even considering putting the stock chip back in my car as I think the Dinan tune does not add that much and I believe it contributes to pre-detonation, a very bad thing for these engines.
GregT53,

Okay, you need to understand the concept more clear here otherwise this
is how people do get confused based on missing the concept and establish
wrong opinion.

For your need you will gain from 3.8 cam gears and EAT or Jim C. chip.
but Hugo Will Not have gain because his car is a track car and he needs
the engine to pull hard at top end but not lose in the mid range were he
exits a corner.

For a Stock car just like yours I put together a nice set up and the gains
are so much nicer than any chipped engine with 3.8 cam gears alone.
I do upgrade the intake cam and leave the exhaust cam stock, its the
basic upgrade big intake cam and small exhaust and via the cam timing
the torque curve is very broad and spread out without loosing at
7200rpm as opposite with the 3.8 108 and 264s which you lose pass
~6400rpms...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRZ6zzk6c8g

With the intake cam I have increased the the torque starting from idle
thru the entire rev range.

Also here we have a real gain not only under the RPM curve but also the
pick HP gain is about pure 25rwhp gain at 6900rpm.

This is absolute max of what can be done from a full bone stock E34M5
3.6 with the original exhaust system...for the sake of to stretch the test
and see a real dyno fact, I removed the the exhaust 264 and installed the
the big cam on the exhaust as well, timed it to my linking, so now we have
intake and exhaust cams upgraded...Back on the rollers and Ignition and
Fuel was tuned for this set up. The gains were 3-5rwhp...and that ended
the real test by proving my test what can be done with stock exhaust
system and big cats and also a bone stock 3.6 engine without any internal
touch.

Fact is fact, on the same dyno the Red car with 264/264 and Dinan Chip
it made 260rwhp. When I installed the Intake cam custom timing, valve
adjustment and tuned for this set up, the engine produced 285rwhp, 25rwhp
gain and broader torque curve.

Fuel economy also does improve when driven light on the throttle, also
passes smog with flying numbers..Hard to believe but fact, it's win win option.

Hope this helps a bit.

Regards,
Anri
 

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Some years ago I remember reading on the Dinan site that the Dinan chip was designed to be used with the cam gears to achieve the max power gain from stock 315 HP to 340HP. I never understood this calculus since changing the cam gears seems to move the power band toward the mid-range rather than increasing gross horsepower. I have a Dinan chip in mine, and have the cam gears yet to be installed. FYI, the intake cam part number is 11311317962; exhaust cam is 11311317964.
Correct the Dinan chip was setup with the s38b38 cam gears in mind and Dinan actually quoted a higher hp gain as well as torque with the chip and gears in their literature at the time, see attachments.

Also I dug up an old but good explanation of mine from 2013 and tweaked it a bit . . . As far as why changing the gears alters power delivery you just need to understand that the gears are altering the lobe separation angle (LSA) of the intake and exhaust cams. This is the angle that exists if you were to have the cams directly in front of you and had an imaginary line that ran down the center of a lobe on the intake and exhaust cam. The S38B36 has a LSA of 110* the S38B38 has a LSA of 108* which again is determined by the cam gears (The b36 and b38 share the same cam PN IIRC). The benefit of a lower LSA is that it increases torque, moves torque to a lower rpm, higher effective cylinder pressure, open and closed valve overlap increases, and you get more exhaust gas in the intake charge (similar to EGR). With a larger LSA such as the B36 has you have a broader power band but less torque, torque is at a higher rpm, less open and closed valve overlap, and less of a chance of knock due to lower effective cylinder pressure. Some more explanations:

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/camshaft-shootout-lobe-separation-angle-tested-explained/

Technical Specs & Information

https://dsportmag.com/the-tech/why-and-how-to-degree-your-dohc-engine-proper-camshaft-timing-for-peak-performance-and-minimal-headaches/

All in on most NA cars I would suggest the cam gears if you have them as a good upgrade especially if paired with a proper mapping.

Greg
Angry *** Limited
 

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If you compare the Dinan1 (chip only) with Dinan2 (chip+sprockets) you can clearly see a loss in torque <3000rpm and an improvement >4500rpm. At higher engine speeds the difference is minimal. This seems logical when advancing the intake camshaft timing.



As for hugo request,
This seems the package were you are looking for. Maybe an idea to chip it first as there seems to be a large gain from chipping only.


I do doubt the torque curves from Dinan. But I can imagine that these measurement were taken a long time ago looking at the paper format.
 

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I do doubt the torque curves from Dinan

Hey Tom,

Many thanks for your reply, I would like to share few logic points
I have.

You doubt his torque ? what about the HP ?

His claim of 351bhp is all one big balloon of fluff..You do tune engines
and I am not sure how much % of a drive train loss are you allowing but
I am at no more than 14-15% for BMW cars been at max. So based on
this, things can get very tricky....

It's 1 ways of how he calculate his claimed 351bhp at 6500rpms...

When install the 108/108 and Eprom you do gain power in the
mid range because the ignition map table is aggressive and also with the
tight LSA you are creating nice set up. So this is the trick here, BMW
real number is 310bhp SAE and he makes 351bhp, so that is a gain of 41bhp
add that gain On Top of the BMW Factory so math follows as 310bhp+41hp..
equals to 351bhp so this is how he advertise his package...

So, let's take his HP number figure for real at 6500rpm he is making
351bhp minus 15% drive train losses this come to 298RWHP...I have
never seen yet E34M5 3.6 with the Stock Exhaust and cats to produce
with bone stock engine internals and exhaust system with Diann package
to get near the mark of 298rwhp.....have you ?


The Red E34M5 3.6 in my video with super healthy engine 108/108 Dinan Chip
made 260rwhp on Mustang Dyno yes it reads low but Dyno-Jet is a real number at
270rwhp so if I add 15% drive train loss then the power match perfect at what
BMW AG claims the figure of 310bhp (SAE) for US 3.6. (DIN) is 315bhp (euro market)

Next point of mine is:

I wander were BMW Motorsport GmbH and Sir. Paul Rosche went All
Wrong back in 1992 with S38-B38 3.8 ? The Entire DNA was changed as
following....

-50mm ITB with narrow flat shaft to increase flow.
-38.5mm/32.5mm valves and with larger Valve Seats.
-0.5 CR was raised
-Lighter internals so the drag and friction characteristics do release HP
-Larger Merge Collector at the headers..
-Much much less restrictive Cats...to reduce pressure.
-Increased stroke by 4mm and rod is shorten to 142.5 so that way the
engine will breath right after first few degree pass TDC which will reach max
power from very early on the rpm range.
- Cyl ports are increased to optimize flow and provide much hi volume of
air charge...
- Total CC is increase up to 3798cc vs 3553.
- 3.8 pick power is at 6900rpm at 340bhp.

So, BMW Motorsport GmbH put all that bloody work and they achieved only
340bhp and they are still 11hp behind ? vs. Dinan 3.6 Package with cam gears
and a chip alone ?....

So based on Dinan's calculation of making 351bhp from 3.6, does that mean
that the S38-B38 with just a tune and say 105 105 cam gears will produce
~405bhp ? put on crappy 91 Octane California gas....

Hands down...I must say uncle Steve was very very very clever busyness man
and he loved Leemings....and Leemings loved him back.

Ask Mike Ottati who drove his White E34M5 3.6 with Dinan Cam Gears 108/108
Dinan eprom for years....Ask him when he got the Silver E34M5 3.8 when he drove
it for the first time he was impressed what a different animal is the 3.8 compare
to the Dinan package with 11bhp less......

Very clever way of calculating bhp.....to make look big.

Regards,
Anri
 

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For Dinan numbers, I don’t know how they measure this back in the days it was sold. In the advert / information sheet it is mentioned that the chip performance figures were meant for supreme fuel so probably something else than originally recommended.
If the stock run was made on poor fuel and safe calibration settings these gains might have been possible. We don’t know if the stock values were lifted to factory standard from the measured run and so on.If the stock run doesn't meet the factory quoted no one takes you serious.

In the case of the camshaft sprockets, it is more meaningful to me to measure the amount of air the engine consumes. From these measurements a clear observation can be made were the engines loses air and were it gains.
But from a marketing point of view… no, you want to sell torque and horses. No customer would ask for such information.

I as you do think, what the hell happened back in these days. If so much additional torque/power would be present, why they didn’t use it if it was available? The S38B36/B38 engines were designed to work with a catalytic converter and I doubt NOx measurements were part of the game in these days. It seems a Euro 1 engine and emissions were handled most by the OEM itself. No driving cycles were demanded by them to my knowledge. Only MOT regulations were tested which limits CO content and an air mixture of lambda 1. As this was measured in idle and part load, you could do anything during full load as it would not hurt the catalytic converter or engine.
I therefore suspect that a rich mixture was used to protect the hot side of the engine (exhaust valves and the catalytic converter). The S54 engine and older BMWs for Japanse market used a thermocouple to monitor the temperature in the exhaust. Were S54 engine adds fuel to lower the exhaust temperature the older Japanese vehicles had a warning lamp on the dashboard to inform the driver of overheating.
BMW might adjusted the engine in a way it could be used for long periods of highway driving at high speeds. Imagine that in engine testing the engine is holding its engine speed and load for over minutes (sometimes hours) (even at 6900rpm full load) and all components need to stay in condition (no melting catalysts). On most (tuner) dynos this is not possible due to the lack of cooling.

I see a lot of people leaning mixtures to add horsepower, even new cars. So it might be possible that tuners lean the mixture but don’t look after the temperatures before the catalytic converter. Nowadays catalytic converters can handle around ~900°C. But I can assume this wasn’t the case in the 80-90s. If we take the Alpina B10 BiTurbo by hand, it had a production release equal to the E34 M5. I remember it could not be sold in USA due to some (emission) reason while M5 3.6 could (secondary air pump?).There is a possibility USA limits were different and stricter.

Also imagine the costs for running these test and possible implementation of new systems that need to be present.


For now I think we need to move this debate/discussion to another discussion topic as this is not what hugo requested ;-)
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For Dinan numbers, I don’t know how they measure this back in the days it was sold. In the advert / information sheet it is mentioned that the chip performance figures were meant for supreme fuel so probably something else than originally recommended.
Hey Tom,

Many thanks to reply again with thoughts but let's get this
with a real data not assumptions.

My E24M6 with S38-B36 108/108 cam timing made 285rwhp
but not with Dinan Eprom chip, it made it Jim Conforti while
the car was on the straps I had a 2nd computer, swapped the ECU
with Dinan 7rwhp less....then Dinan chip was sold..

My 3.6 engine has M88/3 headers whit modified merge collector
de-cated with fully mandrel bent 63m dual exhaust system.The
OEM merge collector is around 43mm were the Mig weld is from the
factory.

Fact is fact my car made 15hp due to the massive exhaust system.
So the calculation is a follow, 285rwhp+15% equals to 327[bhp]
so OEM is 310 (SAE) chip map+full exhaust system I have 17[bhp]
gain, and 85%+ power gain do come from the hi flow exhaust system
the rest is from the tune.

I am attaching you my Dyno Chart so you can see the actual curve and HP.
exactly how its advert the Pick Power is brought from OEM at 6900rpm
110/110 LSA down to 108/108 and that killed pick power at 6900
and now the power is at 6500rpm so ~400rpm less. Look at my hp is
dropping pass 6600rpm...

No matter, Dinan, OEM eprom, Jim C. the power curve will be always
in the same shape due to Cam 108 timing not Map/fuel timing..the tune will
precise the curve.

Joe and I looked at the actual Ignition and Fuel Map tables on how he
tuned and you should see it...for your comparison I will get in touch with you
via the phone and you after you see the entire picture like a tuner then you
will smile hard.

Regarding the fuel you mentioned ? sure they required 91 Octane gas and it
was underline! Back in the early 90's in US 91 Octane was rarely used because most
US engine never required 91 Octane and BMW M5 was a considered hi CR
engine, all stared from the E24M6, a massive article was attached to every sell
to educate the US customer and ensure that they will not put 87 nor 89 Octane
so the meaning of Hi octane is 91 Octane.

Tom, I played to death with different cam timings, many camshaft combinations,
different exhaust system name it etc...

I took a very tall task and stretched the test to the point of were I maxed out the
OEM set up. All bone stock S38-B36 put on 91 octane only Cams and Full exhaust
system all precise tuned you are tapping at 310+/- [rwhp] then to further the power up
the entire DNA must be changed...

As far as for Hugo's set up ? at least intake Cam otherwise waisting time....At the track
with this set up at 285rwhp and power dropping pass 6500rpm is not ideal. I
did gain a lot of speed when my curve was near the the Rev Limiter. Also the New
rev limiter is increased up to 7600rpm as opposite of 7250 also the massive gains
from shifting at 7580rpm right before the rev limiter next gear the RPM drop was
so much nicer rather then shifting at 7250rpm and the rpm drop is bad...

After the package my car at the track was in a complete different level of trap speed.
and still get's In-Cam right at 3900rpm just as the factory set up...and the gain of real
25rwhp is obvious....

My calculation is realistic 306-308rwhp+15%=356 [bhp] is how I do the calculation.
The pure gain from cams exhaust and tune is 55 [bhp] gain over stock 310 (SAE).

So if calculate the way they do, 310 SAE +92gain does that mean my S38 3.6 is 402[bhp] ?
LOL....


Regards,
Anri
 

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Tom,

Some more food for us.

Same story is repeated with US E24M6 and Dinan sprocket on
the exhaust side by dropping down to 100 degree.

My other E24M6 I do daily drive has this set up installed about
12years ago and I wanted to dyno my car and see were I am at ?
My engine is super healthy and strong. On the Dyno I had 2 ECU
to swap between runs.

Again and again Jim Conforti made more power than the Dinan
Eprom. The massive gain comes from the aggressive lean mixture
between idle up to exact were these engine come "In-Cam" 4000rpm.

So under 4000rpm Jim C made the map to be over 14AFR this is
why they do well in low to mid range rpm range. Then after the
engine gets in cam you can see the AFR drops progressive slow down
to 13 AFR right were they usually detonated at around ~5000rpm.

My engine made 226 RWHP + 15% drive train loss comes up to
256[bhp] exactly how BMW AG sold all Cat Version S38 B35.

Dinan claims 290[bhp] at 6500rpm for E24M6,the Dyno clearly shows
it all.

Every upgrade was ever advertised for S38 I have tested 10+years ago
and every test I was doing at the Dyno I always looked for the advertised
power. If we calculate 290[bhp] at 6500rpm -15% drive train loss it comes
up to 246.5[rwhp] Tom, where are the HPs ?...

After all the test I have done I realized the way he is calculating the
power. The sad part is that you ask a regular person who owns a
E34M5 with Dinan package and in a Technical conversation they always
tell you that their engine makes 356 [bhp] because of a special Dinan package
they have....

One needs to understand that the cam gears upgrade do not give a power,
they move power...In simple explanation you have say 200 hp at 6000rpm
alter the cam timing. Take 10hp from the 200hp and place that in say 4000rpm
so now at 6000rpm the power is 190hp and you moved that 10hp and add
that to the 4000rpm range. The Advertising strategy behind this is very clever !!!

Bellow I am attaching you my Dyno from my E24M6 S38 B35 Cat version all
stock engine stock exhaust system. Jim Conforti chip for S38 is always been
a choice of mine for bolt on.
 

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Tom,

This is real gain here not BS. Bellow I am attaching
you a Dyno from my other E24M6 but with the following upgrades

- 3.6/3.8 264/264 cams.
- My cup of tea intake and exhaust timing.
- Large intake box.
- M88/3 Modified Headers
- 63mm dual exhaust system.
- MAF Conversion.
- Custom Eprom Tune for this package.
- Increased rev limiter.

Same bone stock motor and all those upgrades as a complete
package produced healthy 263[RWHP]

Mustand-Dyno was used for this, and remember always reads
on a tiny bit lower than Dyno-Jet.


263[RWHP]+15%=302[bhp] Also note the Dyno Curve how much
nicer is compare to my other dyno chart I have attached from my DD.
Stock US M6 is rated at 256 (SAE) hp. after these upgrade the S38B35
gains 46[bhp] gain at pick rpm, and the gains thru the rpm range are
also obvious.

To make power from NA engine is not easy as people think....and
why people always go to FI because its easy to make power and
level of power will exceed the limits of what NA can be capable of
put on no matter the type of fuel.

Regards,
Anri.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Thanks guys for all the great in-depth information! Also sorry I didn't reply sooner, I was crazy busy last week.



Anri, really cool to see you have done so much experimentation with the S38 engines!



If I recap all the information I think the 3.8 cam's is a nice upgrade for people using their S38B36 for driving around town? As mentioned I am absolutely unwilling to sacrifice top-end power for more torque/HP in the mid-range.

Anri, you mention the Jim C. (Turner Motorsport?) chip as your standard eprom power upgrade for the S38B36 engine. But you (and other M5board members) also mention that it will increase the risk of detonation. Also I read it increases the RPM limiter fro 7250 to 7500rpm. I am not a big fan of this. It is a cheap trick to increase HP in top-end and S38B36 is a big engine so the extra 250RPM will cause a lot of stress right? So why do you recommend this chip? Am I missing something here?

Tomba, also many thanks for the graphs and your input! Very useful as always! If I recall correctly you work in the engine tuning sector in Holland, right? I like your remark saying perhaps it is best to look for a custom chip rather then going for the 3.8 cam gears. Do you know of a company in Holland that can write a custom chip for the S38B36 engine?


Also, no issues you guys go off-topic talking about general power increase in old school NA engines! Very interesting topic! As far as I am concerned we can divert and talk about what would be an effective EPROM/Chip tuning strategy for the S38B36 engines!
 

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Hugo,

I don't want to go in details because I think you are missing a lot
of points and my suggestion is let's simplify your need with options.

Option 1- Install used 108/108 and have Tom install them, have him
tune your engine, Tom is located in NL and I think you are located in NL
as well ? Rent a Dyno of were Tom can tune your car with your set up,
pay his labor for time spent to custom tune your engine, all that is not
cheap. Remember 2 3.6 engines are never the same so you will benefit
from custom dyno/tune.

Option-2 is the proper option. Install at least Intake cam, adjust the
cam timing which I will help you with, valve adjustment, full custom exhaust
system is a must with this set up to benefit the package and have Tom
tune it. You will have massive gain compare to what cam gears and chip will
ever ever give you.

Option-3 is just have Tom tune your car as is and be happy till the next time
you realize at the track that you need more out of it...I am not sure if you are
driving for lap time or just for fun but if you are Not "racing against the clock"
then you are fine...the problems are coming from when you Start racing against
the clock....

If you want to step up in the game and have real gains you can feel when driving
your car and also the Clock gains at the track you need to spent little bit of money.

With used 108/108 cam gears and Jim C. or EAT chip from $150 used...from some one
sold his M5 and selling his left over parts etc...will not give your Original Post Request......
"I want to increase power in mid range but not to lose top end"

Hugo, making power from NA is not cheap. Lot's of people think with just buying a
used eprom chip can get the request...but the truth is elsewhere.....

The reason I posted all my work above is to show you the hard work one needs to put
in order to have a real gains...which I am not certain if you got my point, yet...

Make up your mind how much is your budget and then with that in mind we can
square options to get the best power gain for your coin.

Regards,
Anri
 

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For B36 with Schrick 280 intake cam, should use also 3.8 cam gears or original ones? Or adjustable sprockets and how to adjust?
 

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This is absolute max of what can be done from a full bone stock E34M5
3.6 with the original exhaust system
3.8 had 347HP and it uses same exhaust system as 3.6. Only cats are different. It makes me wonder is that 3.6 exhaust really that bad? I assume it can handle atleast same 347HP.
 

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3.8 had 347HP and it uses same exhaust system as 3.6. Only cats are different. It makes me wonder is that 3.6 exhaust really that bad? I assume it can handle atleast same 347HP.

Eero,

3.8 shape is all the same as 3.6 because same chassis yea..
But the 3.6 cats are very long and wide and that acts like a
clogged air filter.

BMW did reduce the cat size on the 3.8 because remember
the package on the 3.8 is all much better vs 3.6 for power
stand point all starting from the 50mm stacks thru the head,
valve etc etc..

Also important note on the 3.8 exhaust at the merge collector
and down-pipe are larger than the 3.6 and that is restrictor #1
for the 3.6, #2 is the long and wide cats.

Do reverse engineering, when you have time play a bit with,
put complete 3.6 exhaust system including the headers on 3.8
engine and go drive it..do a dyno run.

is that 3.6 exhaust really that bad?
So the answer to your question yes it is that bad.

If you look at the videos and pay attention at the Dyno note how
fast my cammed 3.6 with full free flow exhaust reaches the rev limiter
at 7600rpm, how much faster it revs compare to stock 3.6 exhaust
system all the same internal parts, all the same flywheel all the same
cam timing, same cams all same and the stock 3.6 takes much more time
to go thru the revs. My set up made 302-303rwhp and that is due to
the free flow exhaust system. So the package is completed cams and
exhaust system works very well.

Free flow exhaust system on the 3.5 3.6 and 3.8 do make huge
difference of how fast the motor will rev specially up top. But that does
not mean that you will be making tons of power if you put exhaust alone.
remember it's always "The Package".

Again the stock car with Intake cam only is maxed out at around 283-285rwhp
on Mustang Dyno at about ~74F ambience weather put on California crapy
91 pump gas.

Regards,
Anri
 

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Eero,

But the 3.6 cats are very long and wide and that acts like a
clogged air filter.

Free flow exhaust system on the 3.5 3.6 and 3.8 do make huge
difference of how fast the motor will rev specially up top.
Thanks Anri.

I have driven with clogged cats, empty cats, straight pipes and clean cats. I FEEL, it revs more easily without cats, but cant notice more power. Also i think it had less low rpm torq. But, only feeling no dyno test.

What is that free flow exhaust? 100cell metal cats? No cats? Replace cats with oem silencers? Remove air pipes inside manifold? Middle and rear silencers are same on 3.6/3.8. Supersprint sell exhaust manifold, but 2800€ makes me wonder is it worth it.
 

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Thanks Anri.

I have driven with clogged cats, empty cats, straight pipes and clean cats. I FEEL, it revs more easily without cats, but cant notice more power. Also i think it had less low rpm torq. But, only feeling no dyno test.
Eero, I am happy you did first hand tests and test drove the car,
and you felt the difference in revving characteristics that is priceless
experience for one who wants to find the truth...

But always remember it's "The Package" and yes you felt loss of punch
torque at low rpm and the reason being is because when you have large
exhaust system on stock internal, you discharge the combustion quick and
you rely on rpm's.

But but but to benefit the large exhaust system you need to installing Intake
cam (at least) and trick cam timing so this way you restore back cyl air charge
to some extend. Ones the Mechanical package is done then it's the Tune to complete
the Package and benefit this on a level one will test drive and the comment will be
"wow" what a difference...other wise you will be chasing rpm's like Tom and Jery of
each other and will keep saying when OEM torque was better...


What is that free flow exhaust? 100cell metal cats? No cats? Replace cats with oem silencers? Remove air pipes inside manifold? Middle and rear silencers are same on 3.6/3.8. Supersprint sell exhaust manifold, but 2800€ makes me wonder is it worth it.
Eero, never ever drive without cats, a) because it smells inside the
carbin nasty, b) one behind driving will smell your nasty exhaust
fumes c) no need to pollute the air we breathe..!

There was a huge argument between a friend and I about Cats making
HP...at the Dyno my 3.6 had the entire exhaust on with cats attached,
tunned it made 302-303RWHP on Mustang Dyno. But but but my exhaust
system is Huge and having Cats do not affect the power at all not even 01%

While the car was on the rollers, floor jacks up the car got under removed the
entire exhaust system just basically how E9 CSL is running ala side exhaust
shorts as fxck, right off the headers down-pipe the test was pure for HP gain
not torque gain. HP was the subject of an argument.

Down on the rollers, strapped the car, precise tuned it run after run after
run after run....at one point I said my friend what happen ? We can do this till
tomorrow morning and still we are going to be at 302....

My point is/was that a bone stock 3.6 as "The Package" is maxed out at
around 302rwhp +/- with Cams and full large exhaust system, precise tuned.

If you were to drive my cammed 3.6 set up you will be altering your OEM
set up on a heart beat...My car is so much fun to drive and power band is just
as one would never ever believe how is that possible..

To further up the HP the "The Package" must be altered. Those who think that
a chip alone and 108 cam gears will produce pick 351[bhp] let them be victim of
illusionism...

Regards,
Anri
 
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