BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums banner

Replaced VANOS, problems remain- Troubleshooting Help

9792 42
Interestingly enough I'm having the exact same problem right now.

Only thing is the camshaft sensors have been replaced within the past six months, as have both banks of the VANOS.

The EXACT symptoms just popped up again though, I was trying to explain the sound to the service guy (like yours it wasn't doing it when I went to there and was driving fine)

Though I do notice that mine isn't pulling quite as hard, though it comes and goes.

I'm not sure what else can be replaced at this point. Could MAFS be doing this somehow?

Current codes are giving me a CPS, VANOS, misfire, and Cat efficiency error.

I'll post on this thread when I hear back in the next day or two what they come up with now.
1 - 20 of 43 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
576 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 ·
KevinM said:
Do you know what codes are being pulled? If not, a Peake tool may make you more confident in your decision regarding the repair. If the car is running well now, you might consider clearing the codes, and then using a Peake reader if/when the SES light returns.

Slightly OT, but I'm always amazed at the different paths many dealers take depending if a car is in or out of warranty. Many of us have experiences (and it is not just BMW!) trying to "convince" a service dept. that something actually is amiss while the car is under warranty. On the other hand, bring a car out of warranty in for a routine oil change, and lo and behold, the dealer finds many other things that need attention!

Good luck, and I hope it is just a CPS.
Yes, I didn't post the numbers for the codes, but I posted what they were above, A CPS code, Vanos on 5-8, a ton of misfire codes, catalyst error and one other one that was pretty minor.

Seems like they would be a CPS, but since I have recently replaced both, and the VANOS units on both banks, I'm at a loss right now.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
576 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
BMR4LIF said:
If its not the CPS, consider doing the Solenoids on the VANOS unit first.
I'm no expert, but wouldn't they have replaced those during the Vanos replacement three weeks ago? Or would they re-use all of those items?
 

· Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,036 Posts
Check camshaft sensor cables, connetors, and also the crankshaft sensor

Shakazulu12 said:
Yes, I didn't post the numbers for the codes, but I posted what they were above, A CPS code, Vanos on 5-8, a ton of misfire codes, catalyst error and one other one that was pretty minor.

Seems like they would be a CPS, but since I have recently replaced both, and the VANOS units on both banks, I'm at a loss right now.
Well, there are cabling going to the camshaft sensors too, and a connector at the DME.

If there is a camshaft sensor fault code, there is a camshaft sensor problem or a cabling problem. I´ve yet never heard of a "false alarm fault code" regarding the camshaft sensors.

Another inexpensive thing to look at is the crankshaft sensor (located at the bell housing). This sensor is critical for ignition timing, for misfire detection, and notorious for degrading only very slowly and not giving any fault code until it is gone very bad, that is long after if has caused problems.

If the crankshaft sensor does not 100% correctly all the time, you will get ignition problems, and false misfire detections. The latter will upset the ignition timing advance, and rob the engine of much power.

The crankshaft sensor alignment is critical, and as the sensor ages the alignment becomes more critical. (Alignment is adjusted by adding or removing shims located between the sensor and the bell-housing.)
Very easy DIY job.

David
 

· Registered
Joined
·
576 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
DavidS said:
Well, there are cabling going to the camshaft sensors too, and a connector at the DME.

If there is a camshaft sensor fault code, there is a camshaft sensor problem or a cabling problem. I´ve yet never heard of a "false alarm fault code" regarding the camshaft sensors.

Another inexpensive thing to look at is the crankshaft sensor (located at the bell housing). This sensor is critical for ignition timing, for misfire detection, and notorious for degrading only very slowly and not giving any fault code until it is gone very bad, that is long after if has caused problems.

If the crankshaft sensor does not 100% correctly all the time, you will get ignition problems, and false misfire detections. The latter will upset the ignition timing advance, and rob the engine of much power.

The crankshaft sensor alignment is critical, and as the sensor ages the alignment becomes more critical. (Alignment is adjusted by adding or removing shims located between the sensor and the bell-housing.)
Very easy DIY job.

David
Thanks for the advice, I have not heard much about the crankshaft sensor on here before. At least there is hope!

Actually, I didn't mind the higher pitched noise coming from the engine though, it sounded pretty mean, wish there was a way to do that without any damage or SES lights.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
576 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
I'm about to give up on my dealer and take it back to my indy that I prefer. Its a long story on why I keep ending up at the dealer, but anyhow I'm tired of it.

So far today these are the phone calls I have recieved.....

1st call "Its likely that VANOS on bank one has failed, and at this mileage, you probably should replace both." I found this one most interesting since that same dealership had replaced both Vanos units last month.....

2nd call, "the pressure on the VANOS unit in bank 1 is really low, its probably a VANOS solenoid............"I asked why this wasn't checked last month when they replaced the system, no real answer on that, but they were still "looking into it and taking it on the road to see if another fault came up" I equate this to another joyride and start raising my voice slightly, while pulling into a Chevy dealership that had a Z06 on the lot.

3rd call. "Still can't tell if its the VANOS unit, but it may likely be the cam gears, thats going to be spendy if its the case......" OK, I'm not a technical person at all, but I have two questions about this, neither of which got answered. 1st, cam gears in my dodge were about a hundred bucks, the dealership wouldn't quote a price as they said they were still working on it, but indicated it was a lofty process. 2nd, in the one car that I had with cam gear problems (see question 1), it shaked like a lawnmower had been slipped under the hood and ran like absolute crap and barely limped to the mechanic that fixed it. My car is running fine for the most part, the symptoms that I stated from above seemed like a faulty CPS.


Anyhow, I'm at a loss at this point. I have to leave town for three days, when I come back, its going back to my independant no matter what the dealer says, I don't care if they fix it for a hundred dollars at this point, I don't trust them and nobody has been able to explain anything about the symptoms or how to fix anything. I understand engine basics, but defianately not a whole lot and I'm getting the feeling I'm being taken advantage of.

Oh, the Z06 ride was interesting, I never thought I would say a car had too much power, but it almost felt like it did.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
576 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Update, 4th call of the day....

Definately the camshaft gears, this is per BMW diagnostics in Germany. Please hand over 3500 dollars.....Oh and this is the first time they have taken the covers of an S62...Didn't make me feel much better.

Anyhow, I had them drive it over to the indy for me and will check back when I get in town next week and see what they are saying.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
13,086 Posts
Wow.

So where are the old VANOS that are likely fine- sell them on ebay, eh?

This dealer needs to be on the hook for repairs under the warranty. They may ave screwed up the install of the VANOS which is causing this problem, or they didn't fix the problem to begin with.

Ask to see the PRINT OUT from 'BMW Germany'... lying pissants. This would be a "PUMA Case".

They are playing with your money, I'd get pretty uptight with them and document everything.

A
 

· Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,036 Posts
Shakazulu12,

I think ARD is right... beware.

Ask if the dealer ran the active Vanos test from the GT-1 test computer, and if so ask what the numbers were. Then post that data here.

This test is done with the engine running at increased idle. Then the GT-1 will make the DME open the control valves for one vanos at a time, and measure the time it takes to move each of the four camshafts from its extreme retarded position to its extreme advanced position. The numbers will be good only if everything (vanos oil pressure, vanos control valves, vanos actuator) is working properly. Unlike many other GT-1 tests (such as the joke of the active MAF test) this is actually very accurate.

If those numbers are fine, there is extremely low chance the Vanos units are not working well.

If the dealer has recommended a new Vanos without running that particular test, no way the German BMW tech support has been involved.

David
 

· Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,036 Posts
ard said:
Ask to see the PRINT OUT from 'BMW Germany'... lying pissants. This would be a "PUMA Case".
Ard,

For the benefit of us europeans: what does "PUMA Case" mean, please?

David
 

· Registered
Joined
·
13,086 Posts
DavidS said:
what does "PUMA Case" mean, please?
Not sure what the acronym stands for, but it is a submission of a technical service issue to BMW within north america for further review. It is when the dealer can't figure it out, and when they call tech support, THEY can't figure it out. The case is documented and BMW will get back to the dealer with 'deeper' tech support.

Its PuMA (German: Problem- und Maßnahmenmanagement Aftersales)

Hey Shak-

Just to clarify, they ALREADY replaced the vanos last month? I'd go to the dealer and ask to copy ALL records associated with that repair. They will be attached to the dealer copy of the receipt. Just ask the gal at the payment desk - NOT the service guy. You want not just the receipt but ALL the tests, including the GT1 test that support their diagnosis and charge. This information may be INCREDIBLY important with your leverage moving forward. Irrespective of whether or not the VANOS was really bad, if they did not do the BMW tests, they cannot prove to BMW or a court that it was bad. Get it.

Good luck

A
 

· Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,036 Posts
Thanks Ard!

I´ve yet again learnt something new.

German: Problem- und Maßnahmenmanagement Aftersales

would translate to "Problem- and action [ / corrective measures´] managment [for] Aftersales"

Shakazulu12,

We all want to help you as best we can, but I think it would benefit our discussion if you would like to post a fairly detailed step-by-step description of what symptoms from the car you noticed when, and what the dealer did and said when, so there remains no room for us to misunderstand anything of what has transpired.

BR,

David
 

· Registered
Joined
·
576 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thank you all for your input,

I just got back into town, and will be picking up the car tomorrow, I will try and type out a detailed summary of all symptons as well as get a copy of the test results onto the board ASAP asn I am most curious to hear what you guys think on this one. I'm thinking of dropping it off at the other authorized dealer in town as well to see if I get the same results.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
576 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Today's update.

I go to the dealer and of course my service guy is not in, there are no notes in the system, and nobody can find any paperwork at all regarding any tests.

I ask for a technician to speak with me, but my requests were declined.

I refused to pay for the services until I recieved all the documentation, they actually let me leave with the car and promised to get some things out to me in the next few days.

At this point they are advising to just drive it for a few hundred more miles to see if the problem persists as they may have fixed it, despite telling me the other day that it was failing all the tests they ran on it. According to the conversation I had the other day, Bank 2 is passing whatever test 80% of the time, and Bank 1 is only passing 20% of the time.

I looked up old invoices and here is the timeline of events based on them.

December 05:

Took car in for 90k service, also the car had begun to vibrate badly at idle and felt like it lost four cylinders, dealer made the following notes on the bottom

-check engine/service engine soon warning dsplayed, check faults, has 13 faults set. Only one fault is present, servotronic fault. The T-stat has set faults and car did not warm up. Clear all faults to see if any come back after repair tech 630 starting point---- T150 interogate fault memory of DME, found F/C184 for inlet Vanos function bank 1 stored. Cleared fault and perform vanos function test, failed test for bank 1 but passed for bank 2. Recheck fault memory f/c 184 stored again. Replace bank 1 vanos solinoid pack and perform Vanos function test, still did not pass test but did not log f/c 184 again. Road testded 6 miles and re-check for faults, no fault stored. If ault 184 returns, will require furth diagnosis

key items replaced were a Solinoid and gasket, coolant thermostat, servotronic control unit/wiring harness, torque converter (?),

April 06 the following notes were on the invoice

-Owner states engine runs and idles rough/service engine light on, car in limp mode

Dealer notes- Replaced bank #2 vanos solenoid pack, confirmed concern. Checked faults and found many faults. The Vanos function bank #2 is currently present. Performed a Vanos test and the car did not pass. Checked the position of the cams and found that the bank #2 intake cam is not in the correct position. Replaced the solenoid pack and now the car is running better. I will have the car test drove and recheck the adaptations and the faults if there are any. The adaptations are starting to even out. There are no faults after a couple of test drives. The car may still need a fule injector service but we should wait to see if the adaptations get better, as of now they are much better than before.

December 06 invoice- Owner states check engine light is on....again.....car in limp mode, see file

Dealer notes on invoice - check for cause of check engine light, check function of Vanos unit with GT1. Vanos on bank 2 failed test, test module indicated to verify correct camshaft timing. checked timing of all camshafts, no problems found. Replace faulty vanos unit for Bank 2. Replace original vanos unit for bank 1 also.

An RMS leak was also repaired at this time.

For some reason I don't have the invoices with the CPS replacements on them though, unless they are burried in more pages here, however they were replaced as well.

I'm not sure what else to do, but will find out more when I can get test results later this week. I'm curious why they would say I need major engine service, but to keep driving it to see if it comes back.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
5,413 Posts
Didn't have time to read the whole thread but isn't the VANOS repair warranted for at least 90 days? So if they screwed up the VANOS isn't the dealer on the hook for making it right?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
576 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Basically they are trying to say its not a VANOS problem anymore.

Camshaft gears is another huge expense.
 

· Super Moderator
Joined
·
10,525 Posts
Shakazulu12 said:
Basically they are trying to say its not a VANOS problem anymore.

Camshaft gears is another huge expense.

sounds kind of fishy to me too. If they did not install the vanos correctly, your cam timing could be off, and potentially you could have piston valve interference.

If you need a set of oe cams/gears, i have mine sitting on my workbench!
Mike
 

· Registered
Joined
·
13,086 Posts
Shakazulu12 said:
Basically they are trying to say its not a VANOS problem anymore.

Camshaft gears is another huge expense.
Maybe they can comment on 'camshaft gears' going bad but no evidence of metal in the oil? (A uoa can confirm.)

The fact that they are backing off from the diagnosis is deeply troubling... I'd want to get the BMW regional tech involved. It is one thing to fact large repair bills, but entirely another when their 'story' keeps morphing.

If there is an issue with a CRANKSHAFT sensor, for example, masquerading as VANOS codes, and they've replaced parts that were good, I'd want to know.

A
 

· Registered
Joined
·
13,187 Posts
ard said:
If there is an issue with a CRANKSHAFT sensor, for example, masquerading as VANOS codes, and they've replaced parts that were good, I'd want to know.
+1. And while you indicate the CPS were replaced, it is troubling you can't find it in your paperwork. There are 4, 2 intake and 2 exhaust and they may not have replaced all 4. A bad CPS often masquerades as a VANO's fault.
Get them to pull the CPS paperwork and doublecheck those.
Regards,
Jerry
 

· Registered
Joined
·
576 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Still no return call from the dealership, nor have they asked to pay the invoice that I should have got. I left a message for my service advisor. I'm trying to get some answers here, but its going nowhere.

In the meantime, the car is running fine now, I put 150 miles on it today, all stop and go in the city with a couple of wide open runs on the highway with no ill affects.

Thanks all for your input, I will keep updating as more information becomes available.
 
1 - 20 of 43 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top