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Problem with clutch/gearbox but no error codes

14K views 56 replies 15 participants last post by  bthorp 
#1 ·
Hi guys, It's my turn having problems with the SMG :sad3:
That was beginning of november the clutch began to be quite aggresive. Put it into first gear and just touch a small bit the throttle, the clutch will bite more than expected and force the car forward. Even though I lift off immediately, the car would still push forward 2 or 3 feet more with the clutch engaged, until it would accept to disengage it. Parking is a nightmare, the problem is even worse in reverse. To just make the car more half an foot you have to tap the throttle a small bit and then get on the brakes hard to force the car to stop :dunno:
The gearchange is very harsh. Especially from 1st to 4th gear, it changes gear and when it's time to engage the clutch, it does very violently, it brings my head backwards and I hear a bang in the transmission. Same when reducing. It is less of a problem when I drive in S6 at high rpm, but in position 1, 2 or 3 it's terrible.
I'd be ok driving always in S6/ high rpm, but quite a lot of times it cannot change gear, I remain stuck one, 2 or3 seconds with nothing until it can change. Really sucks:crying:

Absolutely no error codes says the dealer.
They flashed all car with the last software: no change. Well, fuel consumption seems a bit lower at idle is better, it does never get higher ( to 900 rpm ) as it did before, with the noise similar to cold start with the ASR exhaust. Have your cars up to date guys!
They said my rear diff was bad, that was why the car would make some bangs...Well the car has only 70.000km...They changed it, but no change...
So now it's again at the dealership, it's spent 5 weeks in the last two months. The worst is they tell me the car is ok, it's a M5 so it's normal it's not smooth as a normal car, bulls$t!!!
Anybody an idea of what can be happening? Quite strange the car goes so bad and not one error code.
Clutch seems ok, it's not sluggish, changes normally flat out at high rpm. I don't think it can be the SMG pump. Clutch sensor? they say it's ok...
Thanks for any help!
 
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#3 ·
Coolcat,

Just had mine done, same problem, the release bearing guide was at fault, it had picked up and gualled making the release bearing stick give long changes and kick up the arse feel, no fault codes or red/yellow cogs of *****! Ordered from trisher (getBMWparts.com) on here (site sponsor) for 1/2 the price locally including shipping to Australia! Well done Ev, Jason and Seth!!

Clutch and flywheel were fine but because they were cheap changed them anyway plus the slave, clutch position sensor and uprated pivot pin!!!

Regards

Jay
 
#4 ·
Hi Jay,

Thank you so much for your valuable help!
I thought I could be that, but am really surprised to get no fault codes, would had thought the clutch position sensor would detect that :(
I'll search on that site for the references, and get back to the dealer to explain them a few things about their cars!
Cheers,
 
#5 ·
Hi Jay,

Thank you so much for your valuable help!
I thought I could be that, but am really surprised to get no fault codes, would had thought the clutch position sensor would detect that :(
I'll search on that site for the references, and get back to the dealer to explain them a few things about their cars!
Cheers,

My personal advice. NEVER, NEVER play it smart with the dealers. If anything goes wrong they will say "... you suggested it "

Always tell them " I do not know. It is YOUR JOB to fix it, and I am not paying anything till it is fixed. "

George
 
#7 ·
I agree as well, but you have to take into consideration that:
1) they have just no idea what an M5 is over here, it's been 2 months and they can't find the problem by themselves, so at the end they tell me it is working ok...
2) My warranty ends beginning of march, so if I let them play and not find anything, apart from not having my car to drive it, then once the date passes I will have to involve a lawyer etc to have it covered, complete mess.
So I prefer to try to "help" them find what is wrong.
This morning they asked me if there was an internal note or recall about that so they could refer to it. I have no idea... Jay, do you know that? Or if anybody can help...
Thanks all :)
 
#8 · (Edited)
Hi Coolcat,

No there no internal note extra that we know off (Open to the public anyway).

I'd print some of the photos on the forum and let them 'see' for them selves plus back it up with the complaint from the op.

When the release bearing guide (Part N' 23-11-7-564-680) starts to picks up and fails (gualling the outter face and makes the release bearing stick) it can do great damage to the flywheel and clutch due to not controlling the clutch correctly and allowing slip etc, if you are luck like me you get it in time otherwise its a complete clutch!

Do they acknowledge the fault/driving issue?

I'd push for them hard to pull the gear box out and look at the clutch and guide! I think some dealers think every thing can be done with a laptop and fault codes bt some times you just need to delve in and LOOK!

Regards

Jay
 
#9 ·
Yes Jay, you're completely right, the dealers often think if the laptop says "no fault", the car works fine. And considering there is no fault or error code registered in my car, they told me the car is working ok, the bang at gearchange is normal, the SMG3 is like that, it's a sporty gearbox, not a smooth one like a more comfortable car....etc etc...grrrrrrr
Yes I am pushing them to look at the mechanical problem. They told me they think the clutch position sensor would detect that problem, which makes some sense, but I insisted because maybe the problem on my car is not so serious until now so the variation with the normal behavior is not so much as to have the ECU register a fault...
Cheers
 
#10 ·
Hello guys,

That is 4 months now that my M5 is not OK. I had two problems, which I thought was the same: the throttle/clutch act¡on was very aggressive from a standstill, and the gear changes very violent with a big bang in the whole car.
As Jay advised, the gearchange problem was related to the clutch bearing being worn on the insidean unable to run smoothly on its guide. Also had one rivet that maintain the clutch mecanism assembled that had broken and was travelling there inside, did some damage around to the flywheel teeths, engine rpm sensor etc, but nothing too bad.
Now gearchanges are smooth as before, but the first problem has not disappeared.
It was:
That was beginning of november the clutch began to be quite aggresive. Put it into first gear and just touch a small bit the throttle, the clutch will bite more than expected and force the car forward in a small bang. Even though I lift off immediately, the car would still push forward 2 or 3 feet more with the clutch engaged, until it would accept to disengage it. Parking is a nightmare, the problem is even worse in reverse. To just make the car more half an foot you have to tap the throttle a small bit and then get on the brakes hard to force the car to stop :dunno:
Problem: the stealer is unable to locate the problem, in fact they do not even try, they say the car is OK... I have no idea what to say, for me it's the ECU that does not know the initial clutch position correctly, for some reason it things it is still not engage when in fact it has begun to bite. At least it looks like this. But they say no error code whatsoever, so what can it be? They claim to have sent the last sofware are initialized everything. Clutch position sensor slightly faulty? SMG ECU? Hydraulic problem with SMP pump or receptor cylinder?
Any idea appreciated...
 
#11 ·
Cool Cat,

Without being a mechanic, but only a self-educated enthusiast, and with an experience of 35 years with high profile cars, I will risk to advise the following :

1) It is not a software issue

2) It is not the SMG pump. When the pump is gone, you will experience totally different symptoms in normal driving. Primary symptom is the inconsistency of the pressure exercised by the pump on the clutch group, which

you will understand as a tendency of the whole system to engage and then disengage and so on.

3) For me the problem is in the pressure plate of the clutch or/and the main bearing. When some springs of the pressure plate start braking due to excessive wear, you get such behavior.

There is only one way to be certain. Gearbox out, clutch appart and checking of every invidual component.

Just my 0.02 cents.

George
 
#12 ·
Coolcat, I feel your pain. I just got my car back yesterday from the dealer. I took it in for a few minor things but mainly because when starting from a standstill, when cold, the car would buck until it was rolling fast enough for the clutch to disengage. They thought it was temperature related since it went away when warm and since I needed new temp sensor, so they say, they should have fixed it. So, they kept the car an extra day just to make sure everything was OK. The SA called me yesterday and said car was ready to pick up and said everything is fixed but I would have to put some miles on it so that " the transmission learns how I drive". He also said, "we reset the parameters of the transmission".
What I think is 2 things. First, that it is related to the throw out bearing as mentioned earlier or clutch/ flywheel issue OR that some tech gave me his version of an SMG tune which really blows COCK. Every single gear bangs on upshifts and downshifts. I drove the car for an hour and a half and it really did not feel any different from when I left the dealer. Everything seemed to work fine with my car when I dropped it off except the bucking when cold. Smooth shifting, no banging.
Anyway, I really did not want to post anything. I wanted to give the dealer the benefit of the doubt but I couldn't resist. And do not get me wrong, I love my car and would buy the same thing again knowing what I know now.
 
#13 ·
Thank you both for your input.
Gkinvest, I think really the same as you, but the problem is my M5 was with the gearbox out 3 weeks ago, all checked ( supposedly ), all clutch totally new, as well as clutch bearing, bearing guide, clutch fork etc...
So, well I would difficultly understand these new pieces would be faulty, no?
 
#14 ·
Hello guys,
At this point I would really need some help. What I feared has happened: they have denied all warranty saying the car is perfectly fine, that clutch behaviour is normal for a M5. They wanted me to take the car back, but as my warranty expired last week, I left the car at the dealer so it is still under the same incident note.

Could anyone tell me how his M5/M6 manages the clutch? When the car is at a standstill, P500 selected, you engage first gear. I recall before having these problems, I would need to move the throttle substantially the get the cluych to begin to engage, it would do it in a really soft way, the car moving slowly, I could move forward just a few centimeters, lift the throttle completely, I could feel the clutch disengage and the car stop almost without braking. It was really easy to park the car in a tight place for example.
Now well, if at a standstill, I just touch the throttle a very very tiny bit, I really mean the minimum movement my foot is able to apply on the pedal, may one or two millimeters only, the clutch engages really quickly, almost violently, with some more or less strong "clonk" in the transmission line. It bites more than I would like and the engine pulls the car forward. Although I may immediately lift off, at the very moment the car begins to move, the clutch remains engaged with the car pulling during one to two seconds before disengaging, which means the car may have moved more than one meter. If I am parking the car in a tight place, and I only want to move forward or backward 10 or 20cm, it is a mess, i have to tap the throttle very briefly then immediately step on the brakes to force the car to a stop, which it will do, but with a feel you are fighting against the transmission and the engine.
To make sure it's not me, can anyone tell me how his car behaves?
 
#15 ·
Hello guys,
At this point I would really need some help. What I feared has happened: they have denied all warranty saying the car is perfectly fine, that clutch behaviour is normal for a M5. They wanted me to take the car back, but as my warranty expired last week, I left the car at the dealer so it is still under the same incident note.

Could anyone tell me how his M5/M6 manages the clutch? When the car is at a standstill, P500 selected, you engage first gear. I recall before having these problems, I would need to move the throttle substantially the get the cluych to begin to engage, it would do it in a really soft way, the car moving slowly, I could move forward just a few centimeters, lift the throttle completely, I could feel the clutch disengage and the car stop almost without braking. It was really easy to park the car in a tight place for example.
Now well, if at a standstill, I just touch the throttle a very very tiny bit, I really mean the minimum movement my foot is able to apply on the pedal, may one or two millimeters only, the clutch engages really quickly, almost violently, with some more or less strong "clonk" in the transmission line. It bites more than I would like and the engine pulls the car forward. Although I may immediately lift off, at the very moment the car begins to move, the clutch remains engaged with the car pulling during one to two seconds before disengaging, which means the car may have moved more than one meter. If I am parking the car in a tight place, and I only want to move forward or backward 10 or 20cm, it is a mess, i have to tap the throttle very briefly then immediately step on the brakes to force the car to a stop, which it will do, but with a feel you are fighting against the transmission and the engine.
To make sure it's not me, can anyone tell me how his car behaves?
I am so sorry buddy that you still experience problems. I can hereby officially verify that the first condition you describe is the normal one,

as expected, and the second is dead wrong. Since my last post in this thread I had the opportunity to discuss your case with my mechanics

who are certified M/// dealers, and they confirmed what I had suspected on the first place. Clutch bearing gone or not lubricated - pressure

plate spring/s broken. A very remote third possibility is the primary axle inside the SMG gearbox controlling 1,3,5,7 gear and reverse.

Have you tried changing the fluids of the gearbox and the differential ??? Sometimes miracles can happen where you do not expect them.

My sincere regards,

George
 
#16 ·
Thank you so much for your help George, and for this confirmation!
The whole clutch is brand new, including the bearing and everything around. They swear the bearing has been greased. Could they have mounted it badly? Don't know but gearchanges look perfectly ok and smooth.
Not sure I understand how the primary axle inside the SMG would make the clutch to engage too much too early, but I'll seek for some info on that.
Cheers,
 
#17 ·
Can you find a frendly 'mate' with either an M5 or M6 and do a side-by-side comparison to prove to the dealer its not right?! I agree you should leave the car. Also get a third party automotive engineer to look at the car wile its still in the dealers care someone like the RAC or AA or similar local company. You could also arrange to have the car collected by another BMW dealer so it doesnt come back into your hands if you realy can't make them see sense but this would be a last result.

Could also try sending lots of letters/emails/phone calls to BMW france HQ until they send out one of there own mechanics to evaluate the car, ask to be there on site when he arrives and have a second M5 as a calibration reference!

Hope you get it resolved.

Jay
 
#18 ·
Hi Jay,

You are totally right once again, I am trying to get somebody with a M5/M6 come over to demonstrate to the dealer that they are completely wrong, the problem is that I know nobody who is at less than 2000 km, who has one :( There are very few around here. The dealer say they have one customer who has a M5 and they could check that when he comes for service, but they have no special relationship with him and do not know when he will come next time.

BMW headquarters do not give a damm about my problems, but well I will try again!
There is a dealer whom I know a bit through a friend and he knows M5s quite well, he offered to look at it, but the problem is they are 800 km from here, and the car should be collected on a truck so very costly and they will not accept to cover that cost under warranty so again a problem.
Let's see but I'm very p....d :(
 
#19 ·
Hello , i haved the same problem in my m5 brutal gear changes and burtal stop and go clutch engagement. I fixed the problem by bleeding the clutch cylinder smg pump and smg block again and again and again. Finaly it stoped beeing burtal and it turned up to work like new. No fizical damage, clutch compomnents ok but there was air in my clutch lines. didn't gived me any error codes but it was brutal due to the air that did not let the liquid run smoothly trough the lines...it was something like liquid presure-presure and than boom air comes in :) .

Try bleeding it.
 
#20 ·
i had a program like this, replaced smg control unit and all okay till now.
 
#22 ·
A couple of things about SMG and starting from a standstill. I learned that the SMG will clunk or bang into first if you are sitting idle without your foot on the brake before touching the accelerator. So, if you are at an intersection or even parking on level ground where you do not need to apply the brake to stop from rolling and you apply the pressure to the accelerator it will bang into gear. It will also behave similar if you go from forward to reverse or vice versa and you do not give the SMG proper time to prepare for it's next move. I am very conscious when approaching traffic lights that I can see are about to change. Very annoying but you just need to be aware. Nothing worse than that extremely harsh bang into gear while around other cars and I would think very damaging to SMG.

My theory on why BMW is not really looking into things is that your car will be out of warranty and that is good news for them. Also, I do not think that the techs who work on our cars have the liberty to actually repair anything. If they do not have a code to reference a problem than they do not know what part to change to see if that takes care of the problem. So, the techs are really glorified parts changers, not actual mechanics. But not their fault. Ultimately BMW because they foot the bill and they have the final word.

I cannot see how, if you are still having the banging/ clunk while going through the gears, that they can deny that there is a problem. I could see the occasional incident but if it is constant there is no denying that this is causing premature wear on everything that is connected to where the clunk is coming from. I would get all the documentation from the dealer that you can. Especially a record of when you first brought the car in for this problem since it was before your warranty expired and try another dealer. If you have documentation that the problem existed while still under warranty than you should still be covered. Another option would be to take it to a BMW specialist (not a dealer) and get their expert opinion and get an estimate or something in writing that says that there is definitely something wrong and then you would probably need to hire a lawyer to start the legal process or just see a lawyer first.

Good luck. I have a very similar issue and my car is going back to the dealer but I still have a lot of room on my warranty. So, I can be the squeaky wheel for quite a while. My issue is very frustrating because my car was virtually perfect before they worked on it and now every gear change bangs. After 1,000 miles of driving it like this (recommended by SA to put some miles on her) I have learned some shifting methods that do not bang but it requires that I shift at a minimum of 5K RPM and only while accelerating at a moderate to hard pace. Practically impossible when driving when there are other cars on the road and police or if my wife is in the car. Driving at night in traffic, when I shift, you can not only feel the bang but you can see the bang in the reflection of my headlights on the car in front of me.
 
#23 ·
Hello guys,

Thanks all for your input.
Bikks ==> You are right, I should ask for a change of clutch fluid. I did not think about it but I should have. Indeed I was thinking about a problem with the clutch cylinder, supposing it would not push far enough to completely disengage, but yes the problem may be simply the fluid. What I don't know is if this fluid is the same as brakes as on most cars, I suppose not, it must be separate and pressurized by the SMG pump.
335Xi ==> Yes I tried different settings, and it's always there. Obviously it is less when using P400 than P500, and less as well, when launching in 2nd gear instead of first, but this only means the electronics seems to be doing a normal job, and something mechanic is not ok.
triplesiks ==> Gearchange on my car is ok since they changed the whole clutch, I remain only with the problem from a standstill. You are right, everytime they they me: there is no error code so your car is OK...simply stupid, and I do not know if this is BMW strategy or just lack of training/experience/goodwill from the dealer. As far as your car is concerned, that is exactly how my car behaved when the clutch bearing was bad, maybe you should ask them to have a look at it...
 
#24 ·
I have found a great document on the net that details all the parts and functions of the SMG.
So yes, clutch fluid is only for the SMG and not shared with the brakes. It has its own expansion tank, pump, pressure accumulator etc...
I am just a little bit worried at how to change that clutch fluid, as I did not find the proper operations details. The bleeding seems to be located on the complete upper part of the gearbox, so I fear it is necessary to take it out of the car to bleed the circuit :(
 
#25 · (Edited)
Cool Cat, did you get the E60_M5_Complete_Vehicle.pdf file? if not here's the link

https://files.me.com/clyde1138/940735 in this document you'll have a full description of the SMG3, as for the "bang" noise each time you change gear..... my M5 always made that noise so I've learned how to live with :biggrin: ( Mine had the SMG3 changed at 27.500 km, due to the "SMG issue")

SAlutations de la Suisse :M5thumbs:


I've forgot one thing...... get an extended warranty, it will make you sleep like a baby with no worries in your mind :thumbsup:
 
#26 ·
Bonsoir pbelo ;)
Thank you for the file, I did not have it and it is great and useful!
Although not everything is clear to me, I can see an "oil level/filler plug" on the left side of SMG that seems to indicate it is possible to bleed without taking the whole 'box out of the car. Still don't understand how to really "change" all that fluid, hope the dealer will know, but not sure...
I can't get an extended warranty here BMW does not offer it. And in anyway, since beginning of november that I have this problem, my warranty ( which expired last week ) has been totally useless as the dealer has been completely unable to locate the problems. Thanks to board members, I could have the cluych bearing replaced, the dealer had no idea about this and BMW did not help. Right now they are simply telling me my car works OK, so warranty useless... :(
 
#28 ·
Well BIG BIG news today: looks like my car is repaired! :):)
Yesterday I asked the dealer to change the clutch fluid, they said OK. As they did not know how the perform the operation ( !!! ), they called BMW, who said if no error code it is useless to do that.
But they advised the dealer to do a full coding of the SMG.
They called me saying I should come and try if it felt OK, the guy said he had just moved the car inside their parking and the throttle response was completely different, much softer and the clutch did not bite aggresively anymore.
So I went there and just touching the throttle from a standstill in first gear, I knew it was OK again!!! I could have the car move forward or backward, just a few centimeters if I wanted. GREAT news.
The service manager agreed with me in a smile, that they were completely wrong all that time saying the car had no problem at all.

My thought is: when they were not initially able diagnose the fault my car presented ( clutch bearing ), they certainly injected some piece of software that was not the right one for my car, and completely messed with the programming. It seems what BMW sent them know is the original sofware for my car as brand new, just upgraded, and all ok.
More than 4 months at the dealer for something that would have been solved with 3 days of work, or maybe just 2...
 
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