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Discussion Starter #1
Hi guys, It's my turn having problems with the SMG :sad3:
That was beginning of november the clutch began to be quite aggresive. Put it into first gear and just touch a small bit the throttle, the clutch will bite more than expected and force the car forward. Even though I lift off immediately, the car would still push forward 2 or 3 feet more with the clutch engaged, until it would accept to disengage it. Parking is a nightmare, the problem is even worse in reverse. To just make the car more half an foot you have to tap the throttle a small bit and then get on the brakes hard to force the car to stop :dunno:
The gearchange is very harsh. Especially from 1st to 4th gear, it changes gear and when it's time to engage the clutch, it does very violently, it brings my head backwards and I hear a bang in the transmission. Same when reducing. It is less of a problem when I drive in S6 at high rpm, but in position 1, 2 or 3 it's terrible.
I'd be ok driving always in S6/ high rpm, but quite a lot of times it cannot change gear, I remain stuck one, 2 or3 seconds with nothing until it can change. Really sucks:crying:

Absolutely no error codes says the dealer.
They flashed all car with the last software: no change. Well, fuel consumption seems a bit lower at idle is better, it does never get higher ( to 900 rpm ) as it did before, with the noise similar to cold start with the ASR exhaust. Have your cars up to date guys!
They said my rear diff was bad, that was why the car would make some bangs...Well the car has only 70.000km...They changed it, but no change...
So now it's again at the dealership, it's spent 5 weeks in the last two months. The worst is they tell me the car is ok, it's a M5 so it's normal it's not smooth as a normal car, bulls$t!!!
Anybody an idea of what can be happening? Quite strange the car goes so bad and not one error code.
Clutch seems ok, it's not sluggish, changes normally flat out at high rpm. I don't think it can be the SMG pump. Clutch sensor? they say it's ok...
Thanks for any help!
 

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i experienced the same exact problem.. i just dropped it off at the dealer so i will let you know what they say after tearing it down. So far they've told me that i needed a new clutch and flywheel..
 

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Coolcat,

Just had mine done, same problem, the release bearing guide was at fault, it had picked up and gualled making the release bearing stick give long changes and kick up the arse feel, no fault codes or red/yellow cogs of *****! Ordered from trisher (getBMWparts.com) on here (site sponsor) for 1/2 the price locally including shipping to Australia! Well done Ev, Jason and Seth!!

Clutch and flywheel were fine but because they were cheap changed them anyway plus the slave, clutch position sensor and uprated pivot pin!!!

Regards

Jay
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Hi Jay,

Thank you so much for your valuable help!
I thought I could be that, but am really surprised to get no fault codes, would had thought the clutch position sensor would detect that :(
I'll search on that site for the references, and get back to the dealer to explain them a few things about their cars!
Cheers,
 

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Hi Jay,

Thank you so much for your valuable help!
I thought I could be that, but am really surprised to get no fault codes, would had thought the clutch position sensor would detect that :(
I'll search on that site for the references, and get back to the dealer to explain them a few things about their cars!
Cheers,

My personal advice. NEVER, NEVER play it smart with the dealers. If anything goes wrong they will say "... you suggested it "

Always tell them " I do not know. It is YOUR JOB to fix it, and I am not paying anything till it is fixed. "

George
 

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I agree that works if the cars under warranty but if you are footing the bill for parts, labour and diagnostics a gentle hint in the right direction could save you thousands.

Regards

Jay
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I agree as well, but you have to take into consideration that:
1) they have just no idea what an M5 is over here, it's been 2 months and they can't find the problem by themselves, so at the end they tell me it is working ok...
2) My warranty ends beginning of march, so if I let them play and not find anything, apart from not having my car to drive it, then once the date passes I will have to involve a lawyer etc to have it covered, complete mess.
So I prefer to try to "help" them find what is wrong.
This morning they asked me if there was an internal note or recall about that so they could refer to it. I have no idea... Jay, do you know that? Or if anybody can help...
Thanks all :)
 

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Hi Coolcat,

No there no internal note extra that we know off (Open to the public anyway).

I'd print some of the photos on the forum and let them 'see' for them selves plus back it up with the complaint from the op.

When the release bearing guide (Part N' 23-11-7-564-680) starts to picks up and fails (gualling the outter face and makes the release bearing stick) it can do great damage to the flywheel and clutch due to not controlling the clutch correctly and allowing slip etc, if you are luck like me you get it in time otherwise its a complete clutch!

Do they acknowledge the fault/driving issue?

I'd push for them hard to pull the gear box out and look at the clutch and guide! I think some dealers think every thing can be done with a laptop and fault codes bt some times you just need to delve in and LOOK!

Regards

Jay
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hi Coolcat,

No there no internal note extra that we know off (Open to the public anyway).

I'd print some of the photos on the forum and let them 'see' for them selves plus back it up with the complaint from the op.

When the release bearing guide (Part N' 23-11-7-564-680) starts to picks up and fails (gualling the outter face and makes the release bearing stick) it can do great damage to the flywheel and clutch due to not controlling the clutch correctly and allowing slip etc, if you are luck like me you get it in time otherwise its a complete clutch!

Do they acknowledge the fault/driving issue?

I'd push for them hard to pull the gear box out and look at the clutch and guide! I think some dealers think every thing can be done with a laptop and fault codes bt some times you just need to delve in and LOOK!

Regards

Jay
Yes Jay, you're completely right, the dealers often think if the laptop says "no fault", the car works fine. And considering there is no fault or error code registered in my car, they told me the car is working ok, the bang at gearchange is normal, the SMG3 is like that, it's a sporty gearbox, not a smooth one like a more comfortable car....etc etc...grrrrrrr
Yes I am pushing them to look at the mechanical problem. They told me they think the clutch position sensor would detect that problem, which makes some sense, but I insisted because maybe the problem on my car is not so serious until now so the variation with the normal behavior is not so much as to have the ECU register a fault...
Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Hello guys,

That is 4 months now that my M5 is not OK. I had two problems, which I thought was the same: the throttle/clutch act¡on was very aggressive from a standstill, and the gear changes very violent with a big bang in the whole car.
As Jay advised, the gearchange problem was related to the clutch bearing being worn on the insidean unable to run smoothly on its guide. Also had one rivet that maintain the clutch mecanism assembled that had broken and was travelling there inside, did some damage around to the flywheel teeths, engine rpm sensor etc, but nothing too bad.
Now gearchanges are smooth as before, but the first problem has not disappeared.
It was:
That was beginning of november the clutch began to be quite aggresive. Put it into first gear and just touch a small bit the throttle, the clutch will bite more than expected and force the car forward in a small bang. Even though I lift off immediately, the car would still push forward 2 or 3 feet more with the clutch engaged, until it would accept to disengage it. Parking is a nightmare, the problem is even worse in reverse. To just make the car more half an foot you have to tap the throttle a small bit and then get on the brakes hard to force the car to stop :dunno:
Problem: the stealer is unable to locate the problem, in fact they do not even try, they say the car is OK... I have no idea what to say, for me it's the ECU that does not know the initial clutch position correctly, for some reason it things it is still not engage when in fact it has begun to bite. At least it looks like this. But they say no error code whatsoever, so what can it be? They claim to have sent the last sofware are initialized everything. Clutch position sensor slightly faulty? SMG ECU? Hydraulic problem with SMP pump or receptor cylinder?
Any idea appreciated...
 

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Cool Cat,

Without being a mechanic, but only a self-educated enthusiast, and with an experience of 35 years with high profile cars, I will risk to advise the following :

1) It is not a software issue

2) It is not the SMG pump. When the pump is gone, you will experience totally different symptoms in normal driving. Primary symptom is the inconsistency of the pressure exercised by the pump on the clutch group, which

you will understand as a tendency of the whole system to engage and then disengage and so on.

3) For me the problem is in the pressure plate of the clutch or/and the main bearing. When some springs of the pressure plate start braking due to excessive wear, you get such behavior.

There is only one way to be certain. Gearbox out, clutch appart and checking of every invidual component.

Just my 0.02 cents.

George
 

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Coolcat, I feel your pain. I just got my car back yesterday from the dealer. I took it in for a few minor things but mainly because when starting from a standstill, when cold, the car would buck until it was rolling fast enough for the clutch to disengage. They thought it was temperature related since it went away when warm and since I needed new temp sensor, so they say, they should have fixed it. So, they kept the car an extra day just to make sure everything was OK. The SA called me yesterday and said car was ready to pick up and said everything is fixed but I would have to put some miles on it so that " the transmission learns how I drive". He also said, "we reset the parameters of the transmission".
What I think is 2 things. First, that it is related to the throw out bearing as mentioned earlier or clutch/ flywheel issue OR that some tech gave me his version of an SMG tune which really blows COCK. Every single gear bangs on upshifts and downshifts. I drove the car for an hour and a half and it really did not feel any different from when I left the dealer. Everything seemed to work fine with my car when I dropped it off except the bucking when cold. Smooth shifting, no banging.
Anyway, I really did not want to post anything. I wanted to give the dealer the benefit of the doubt but I couldn't resist. And do not get me wrong, I love my car and would buy the same thing again knowing what I know now.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thank you both for your input.
Gkinvest, I think really the same as you, but the problem is my M5 was with the gearbox out 3 weeks ago, all checked ( supposedly ), all clutch totally new, as well as clutch bearing, bearing guide, clutch fork etc...
So, well I would difficultly understand these new pieces would be faulty, no?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Hello guys,
At this point I would really need some help. What I feared has happened: they have denied all warranty saying the car is perfectly fine, that clutch behaviour is normal for a M5. They wanted me to take the car back, but as my warranty expired last week, I left the car at the dealer so it is still under the same incident note.

Could anyone tell me how his M5/M6 manages the clutch? When the car is at a standstill, P500 selected, you engage first gear. I recall before having these problems, I would need to move the throttle substantially the get the cluych to begin to engage, it would do it in a really soft way, the car moving slowly, I could move forward just a few centimeters, lift the throttle completely, I could feel the clutch disengage and the car stop almost without braking. It was really easy to park the car in a tight place for example.
Now well, if at a standstill, I just touch the throttle a very very tiny bit, I really mean the minimum movement my foot is able to apply on the pedal, may one or two millimeters only, the clutch engages really quickly, almost violently, with some more or less strong "clonk" in the transmission line. It bites more than I would like and the engine pulls the car forward. Although I may immediately lift off, at the very moment the car begins to move, the clutch remains engaged with the car pulling during one to two seconds before disengaging, which means the car may have moved more than one meter. If I am parking the car in a tight place, and I only want to move forward or backward 10 or 20cm, it is a mess, i have to tap the throttle very briefly then immediately step on the brakes to force the car to a stop, which it will do, but with a feel you are fighting against the transmission and the engine.
To make sure it's not me, can anyone tell me how his car behaves?
 

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Hello guys,
At this point I would really need some help. What I feared has happened: they have denied all warranty saying the car is perfectly fine, that clutch behaviour is normal for a M5. They wanted me to take the car back, but as my warranty expired last week, I left the car at the dealer so it is still under the same incident note.

Could anyone tell me how his M5/M6 manages the clutch? When the car is at a standstill, P500 selected, you engage first gear. I recall before having these problems, I would need to move the throttle substantially the get the cluych to begin to engage, it would do it in a really soft way, the car moving slowly, I could move forward just a few centimeters, lift the throttle completely, I could feel the clutch disengage and the car stop almost without braking. It was really easy to park the car in a tight place for example.
Now well, if at a standstill, I just touch the throttle a very very tiny bit, I really mean the minimum movement my foot is able to apply on the pedal, may one or two millimeters only, the clutch engages really quickly, almost violently, with some more or less strong "clonk" in the transmission line. It bites more than I would like and the engine pulls the car forward. Although I may immediately lift off, at the very moment the car begins to move, the clutch remains engaged with the car pulling during one to two seconds before disengaging, which means the car may have moved more than one meter. If I am parking the car in a tight place, and I only want to move forward or backward 10 or 20cm, it is a mess, i have to tap the throttle very briefly then immediately step on the brakes to force the car to a stop, which it will do, but with a feel you are fighting against the transmission and the engine.
To make sure it's not me, can anyone tell me how his car behaves?
I am so sorry buddy that you still experience problems. I can hereby officially verify that the first condition you describe is the normal one,

as expected, and the second is dead wrong. Since my last post in this thread I had the opportunity to discuss your case with my mechanics

who are certified M/// dealers, and they confirmed what I had suspected on the first place. Clutch bearing gone or not lubricated - pressure

plate spring/s broken. A very remote third possibility is the primary axle inside the SMG gearbox controlling 1,3,5,7 gear and reverse.

Have you tried changing the fluids of the gearbox and the differential ??? Sometimes miracles can happen where you do not expect them.

My sincere regards,

George
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Thank you so much for your help George, and for this confirmation!
The whole clutch is brand new, including the bearing and everything around. They swear the bearing has been greased. Could they have mounted it badly? Don't know but gearchanges look perfectly ok and smooth.
Not sure I understand how the primary axle inside the SMG would make the clutch to engage too much too early, but I'll seek for some info on that.
Cheers,
 

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Can you find a frendly 'mate' with either an M5 or M6 and do a side-by-side comparison to prove to the dealer its not right?! I agree you should leave the car. Also get a third party automotive engineer to look at the car wile its still in the dealers care someone like the RAC or AA or similar local company. You could also arrange to have the car collected by another BMW dealer so it doesnt come back into your hands if you realy can't make them see sense but this would be a last result.

Could also try sending lots of letters/emails/phone calls to BMW france HQ until they send out one of there own mechanics to evaluate the car, ask to be there on site when he arrives and have a second M5 as a calibration reference!

Hope you get it resolved.

Jay
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Hi Jay,

You are totally right once again, I am trying to get somebody with a M5/M6 come over to demonstrate to the dealer that they are completely wrong, the problem is that I know nobody who is at less than 2000 km, who has one :( There are very few around here. The dealer say they have one customer who has a M5 and they could check that when he comes for service, but they have no special relationship with him and do not know when he will come next time.

BMW headquarters do not give a damm about my problems, but well I will try again!
There is a dealer whom I know a bit through a friend and he knows M5s quite well, he offered to look at it, but the problem is they are 800 km from here, and the car should be collected on a truck so very costly and they will not accept to cover that cost under warranty so again a problem.
Let's see but I'm very p....d :(
 

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Hello , i haved the same problem in my m5 brutal gear changes and burtal stop and go clutch engagement. I fixed the problem by bleeding the clutch cylinder smg pump and smg block again and again and again. Finaly it stoped beeing burtal and it turned up to work like new. No fizical damage, clutch compomnents ok but there was air in my clutch lines. didn't gived me any error codes but it was brutal due to the air that did not let the liquid run smoothly trough the lines...it was something like liquid presure-presure and than boom air comes in :) .

Try bleeding it.
 

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i had a program like this, replaced smg control unit and all okay till now.
 
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