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Discussion Starter #1
Hello,
I already have the below mods with powerchip and am very happy with the performance. I am thinking about the new updated Dinan intake with ram air, and the dealer said I would get the software for free since I already have powerchip. Does anyone have any compare/contrast stories on the software packages?
Thanks
 

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I doubt that you would get the Dinan software free unless you had a previous purchase/version of Dinan software. Even then you may have to pay the difference from version to version.

Dinan software works flawlessly, but is somewhat tame because of the contract they have with BMW NA. Powerchip doesn't have that issue and can push the hp levels a little further.

I'm sure the Powerchip guys would be glad to send you an updated version of there software to take advantage of your additional mods.

Happy Hollidays :byebye:
 

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Humanoid,

Dinan doesn't have any type of contract with BMW NA, this is a common false idea about Dinan's warranty. Instead, Dinan has their own warranty package that covers your car, and it will cover anything that BMW won't. It's not that BMW's warranty is still intact when you buy Dinan mods, rather Dinan has their own warranty. Also, don't forget, just because you have modifications doesn't mean your warranty is out the window.

Travis
 

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Was your Powerchip adjusted for your SS headers? Shadowman might know the differences, but if your Powerchip has already been set for your headers, then (as I don't know much tech stuff) I would want to make sure the Dinan software wouldn't make the beast run worse, or with too much fuel to air.

Wayne at Powerchip could also be contacted, assuming your software has been set for your headers.




M5Kid said:
Humanoid,

Dinan doesn't have any type of contract with BMW NA, this is a common false idea about Dinan's warranty. Instead, Dinan has their own warranty package that covers your car, and it will cover anything that BMW won't. It's not that BMW's warranty is still intact when you buy Dinan mods, rather Dinan has their own warranty. Also, don't forget, just because you have modifications doesn't mean your warranty is out the window.

Travis
 

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M5Kid said:
Humanoid,

Dinan doesn't have any type of contract with BMW NA, this is a common false idea about Dinan's warranty. Instead, Dinan has their own warranty package that covers your car, and it will cover anything that BMW won't. It's not that BMW's warranty is still intact when you buy Dinan mods, rather Dinan has their own warranty. Also, don't forget, just because you have modifications doesn't mean your warranty is out the window.

Travis

I wasn't speaking in terms of warranty just the fact Dinan has arrangements and or Contract with BMW NA to install mods at only certain dealerships in North America. The fact that Dinan mods have no affect on the new car warranty is another subject.

Are you saying that Dinan only has a verbal agreement with the few dealerships in North America that provide their products to the customer? I would hope that Steve Dinan was a better business man then that but, I could be wrong :7:
 

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Humanoid,

Not sure what the terms of the agreement are between Dinan and BMW. I beleive it is similar to Ferrari and Tubi. At your local Ferrari dealership they sell and install Tubi exhaust systems. But, I don't know the specifics of the agreement.

Travis
 

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pmarin said:
Hello,
I already have the below mods with powerchip and am very happy with the performance. I am thinking about the new updated Dinan intake with ram air, and the dealer said I would get the software for free since I already have powerchip. Does anyone have any compare/contrast stories on the software packages?
Thanks
I had a Dinan ECU upgrade in my car when purchased. I believe it was stage 3. I upgraded that to Powechip and noticed an immediate difference. Car was noticably smoother and cold stumble 99% eliminated. I just had PC do the upgrade for headers, and so far, I am very happy. Car pulls like uh, uh, uh, well, like a beast! :M5launch: Wayne and his group are very easy to work with. :thumbsup: No affiliation, just a satisfied customer.
Regards,
Jerry
 

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Humanoid said:
Dinan software works flawlessly, but is somewhat tame because of the contract they have with BMW NA. Powerchip doesn't have that issue and can push the hp levels a little further.
Perhaps it has nothing to do with a contract with BMWNA, but rather to the fact that if the engine blows up, Steve Dinan is paying?

That could explain a difference in how far the Dinan SW pushes it.... (if there is such a difference)
 

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ard said:
Perhaps it has nothing to do with a contract with BMWNA, but rather to the fact that if the engine blows up, Steve Dinan is paying?

That could explain a difference in how far the Dinan SW pushes it.... (if there is such a difference)
Exactly! I think you hit the nail on the head :M5thumbs:
 

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Discussion Starter #10
2003 M5!!! said:
Was your Powerchip adjusted for your SS headers? Shadowman might know the differences, but if your Powerchip has already been set for your headers, then (as I don't know much tech stuff) I would want to make sure the Dinan software wouldn't make the beast run worse, or with too much fuel to air.

Wayne at Powerchip could also be contacted, assuming your software has been set for your headers.
Yes,
The powerchip software is adjusted for the headers and exhaust mods. I am very happy with the powerchip program. The only reason why I am asking is the dealership wants to put stage 5 on my car for free when I do the intake (since I wouldn't purchase it because I already have powerchip). Stage 5 accounts for the headers, it is the same software as for the S2 package. I hope it should run similar, or else it will be back to powerchip.
 

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pmarin said:
Yes,
The powerchip software is adjusted for the headers and exhaust mods. I am very happy with the powerchip program. The only reason why I am asking is the dealership wants to put stage 5 on my car for free when I do the intake (since I wouldn't purchase it because I already have powerchip). Stage 5 accounts for the headers, it is the same software as for the S2 package. I hope it should run similar, or else it will be back to powerchip.
If they are putting it in for free, there is nothing to lose. And since you have the PC software now, you can compare it and let us know which seems to be a better match for the SS headers.
Regards,
Jerry
 

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Please correct me if my theory is wrong, but....

The only physical cost ( other than R&D and labor ) that is incurred on Software Upgrade companies is probably the "chip" itself.

I am assuming that what companies like Powerchip do, is take your DME, upload the OEM software, remove the OEM chip and replace it with a chip from Powerchip, which then in turn is programmed with the modified software.

So what you should only be paying for is a new "chip" and software!

Which makes me beleive that the same chip is used by Dinan, all they hagve to do is reprogramme your software which prob doesnt cost them anything physically. As long as they sell you their hardware, it shouldnt bother them too much!
 

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Ahmed said:
Please correct me if my theory is wrong, but....

The only physical cost ( other than R&D and labor ) that is incurred on Software Upgrade companies is probably the "chip" itself.

I am assuming that what companies like Powerchip do, is take your DME, upload the OEM software, remove the OEM chip and replace it with a chip from Powerchip, which then in turn is programmed with the modified software.

So what you should only be paying for is a new "chip" and software!

Which makes me beleive that the same chip is used by Dinan, all they hagve to do is reprogramme your software which prob doesnt cost them anything physically. As long as they sell you their hardware, it shouldnt bother them too much!
No, there is no hardware involved. At least with PC, they change the software in the vehicle through (what I assume) is a proprietary software program. They send you the necessary cables, etc (laptop if you don't have one) and then they walk you through the changeover. You have to send them the operating program from your vehicle, they then modify it, and email back the revised program. Turnaround time is usually 24 hours or less. The instructions are good, and they are usually available by phone (PST). They can reprogram for you if you send them your DME, but that shouldn't be necessary. So there is NO cost, other than perhaps shipping the cables back and forth and no down time.
Regards,
Jerry
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Ahmed said:
Please correct me if my theory is wrong, but....

The only physical cost ( other than R&D and labor ) that is incurred on Software Upgrade companies is probably the "chip" itself.

I am assuming that what companies like Powerchip do, is take your DME, upload the OEM software, remove the OEM chip and replace it with a chip from Powerchip, which then in turn is programmed with the modified software.

So what you should only be paying for is a new "chip" and software!

Which makes me beleive that the same chip is used by Dinan, all they hagve to do is reprogramme your software which prob doesnt cost them anything physically. As long as they sell you their hardware, it shouldnt bother them too much!
Actually, there is no "chip". All that is done is a computer is hooked to the port by the steering wheel and the ECU is flashed with updated programing. There is no physical change.
 

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pmarin said:
Actually, there is no "chip". All that is done is a computer is hooked to the port by the steering wheel and the ECU is flashed with updated programing. There is no physical change.
Interesting!

I have gone through this procedure myself already! I have sent them my DME, and had them send me thier equipment for a DIY install, so I am very familiar with the procedures.

I always thought that the OEM "chip" was a readable one only, and for aftermarket companies to upgrade your software meant they had to replace this "chip" with a rewritable one! ( EEPROM)

I also noticed that Powerchip had stuck a label across the cross section of my DME that said something like "POWERCHIP WARRANTY, DO NOT OPEN" ! hmmmmm...

I am very curious to know how this works. Because I am 100% positive that my DME was opened! Why would they open up my DME?
 

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Ahmed said:
Interesting!

I have gone through this procedure myself already! I have sent them my DME, and had them send me thier equipment for a DIY install, so I am very familiar with the procedures.

I always thought that the OEM "chip" was a readable one only, and for aftermarket companies to upgrade your software meant they had to replace this "chip" with a rewritable one! ( EEPROM)

I also noticed that Powerchip had stuck a label across the cross section of my DME that said something like "POWERCHIP WARRANTY, DO NOT OPEN" ! hmmmmm...

I am very curious to know how this works. Because I am 100% positive that my DME was opened! Why would they open up my DME?
My DME has not been out of my car since I owned it, although it did come with Dinan software, so I can't conclusively say it has never been out (although I doubt it). And the dealer has been known to reflash cars with updated software, and I do not believe anything comes out of the car. However, instead of speculating, why not just ask Wayne? Without giving out any proprietary info, I bet he can answer your questions simply and accurately! cherrsagai
Regards,
Jerry
 

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Discussion Starter #17
gsfent said:
My DME has not been out of my car since I owned it, although it did come with Dinan software, so I can't conclusively say it has never been out (although I doubt it). And the dealer has been known to reflash cars with updated software, and I do not believe anything comes out of the car. However, instead of speculating, why not just ask Wayne? Without giving out any proprietary info, I bet he can answer your questions simply and accurately! cherrsagai
Regards,
Jerry
I personally installed the powerchip on my car. Very easy, they overnight you a laptop with special connector and read your ecu. Then you email the original programming file to powerchip, and they email you back the updated programming shortly after. Next you install it yourself with the laptop, it takes about 15 minutes or so, then send the laptop back in the mail. Your computer module is not removed from the car, which is very convenient.
Phil
 

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pmarin said:
... Your computer module is not removed from the car, which is very convenient.
Phil

Personally I prefer the hardware approach. Too bad the E39 doesn't use this approach. Nothing easier than swapping the EEPROM. Also, you have the stock one so you can switch it back (or forth) anytime. No need to entrust a 3rd party to your original programming, and no computers to shuffle back and forth via FedEx.
 

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Guys, I think it can be done either way. Maybe we should see if a powerchip guy could chime in. On my car, i had originally done the laptop/cable serial port approach. When my car went to discovery auto for headers, they sent my dme to powerchip, and from what i was told, it does sound like they remove and replace a chip. Soldering is involved to replace the chip. What i'm not sure of is why this would be better than the serail port method, which seems so much easier to me, but i'm no engineer!
Mike :cheers:

OH, and back to the original question. I've known of a couple of people who went from dinan stage 5 to powerchip and loved the difference, including one who dynoed an extra 8-9 hp with the p/c.
 

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ard said:
Perhaps it has nothing to do with a contract with BMWNA, but rather to the fact that if the engine blows up, Steve Dinan is paying?

That could explain a difference in how far the Dinan SW pushes it.... (if there is such a difference)

Without going into great details let me assure you that the Dinan warranty DOES NOT mean that if you blow your motor after installing Dinan software, or any other Dinan product that they will replace it.

Folks have been....well, if not misinformed, at the very least not informed enough.

There was a law passed in 1975 that protects all of us, the vehicle owners, the aftermarket manufacturers, while keeping the OEM manufacturers in line. However sadly most do not know about it or what their rights really are. So here it is, and it is this law that has afforded Dinan and others to swim freely amongst the big boys. For the most part companies such as Dinan know this law VERY well and bank on the fact they will not be challenged very often. And so be it, when they are you simply pay the fiddler and continue peddling your goods and services.

Magnuson Moss Act

FEARS:

You want to upgrade your vehicle with aftermarket equipment, but you’re worried about putting the vehicle’s warranty at risk. It’s no wonder. How many times have you heard someone at a automobile dealership say that unless the dealer installs your aftermarket equipment you will automatically void your new car warranty? This common misconception has been repeated often enough to be widely believed – though it is completely false.

FACT:

Dealers don’t like warranty work, because it pays less than normal repair work. By promoting the myth that aftermarket equipment automatically voids warranties, some dealers avoid such low-paying work. Instead, they attempt to charge customers the prime service rate for work which is rightfully done under warranty.

THE TRUTH:

Most vehicle owners are not aware they are protected by federal law: the Magnuson-Moss Warranty – Federal Trade Commission Improvement Act of 1975. Under the Magnuson-Moss Act, aftermarket equipment which improves performance does not void a vehicle manufacturer’s original warranty, unless the warranty clearly and conspicuously states that aftermarket equipment voids the warranty. Most states have warranty statutes, as well. Which provide further protections for vehicle owners.
In other words, that means a dealer can’t wiggle out of his legal warranty obligation merely because you install aftermarket equipment. To find out if any aftermarket equipment automatically voids your vehicle’s warranty, check the owner’s manual. It is likely the language you are looking for appears under a heading such as “What Is Not Covered” Although the language seems negative, remember your vehicle manufacturer is simply saying he does not cover the aftermarket products themselves. He is not saying that the products would void the vehicle warranty.

VEHICLE DEALERS OBLIGATIONS:

Suppose your modified vehicle needs repairs while still under warranty. Without analyzing the true cause of the problem, the dealer attempts to deny warranty coverage. He made his decision simply based on the fact that you’ve installed aftermarket equipment – a convenient way to dodge low-paying warranty work.

An example of how ridiculous this can get is the man who was denied warranty coverage by a dealer on his power door locks, because he had improved his exhaust system! Sounds nuts? It really happened – because that man did not know his rights and challenge the dealer’s decision.
Fact: A dealer must prove – not just say – that aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before he can deny warranty coverage on that basis.

YOUR RIGHTS:

Point out to the dealer the provision of the Magnuson-Moss Act- Require that he explain to you how the aftermarket equipment caused the problem. If he can’t – or his explanation sounds questionable – it is your legal right to demand he comply with the warranty.

Fact: If you are still being unfairly denied warranty coverage, there is recourse. The Federal Trade Commission, which administers the Magnuson-Moss Act, monitors compliance with warranty issues. Direct complaints to the

FTC at (202) 326-3128.
SECURITY SYSTEMS:

Under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Improvement Act, a vehicle manufacturer may not make its vehicle warranty conditional on the use of any brand of anti-theft device unless the manufacturer provides the anti-theft device free of charge or the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) has specifically published that only the vehicle manufacturer’s product may be used. To challenge a false claim, ask the person to put it in writing, or request the vehicle manufacturer’s security system free of charge. If you are charged for the anti-theft device, or they refuse to give you a written statement, this is a violation of Federal law.

This is the actual language of the act:

No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer’s using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this sub-section may be waived by the Commission if:

1. the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and

2. the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest.
The district courts of the United States shall have jurisdiction of any action brought by the Attorney General (in his capacity as such), or by the Commission by any of its attorneys designated by it for such purpose, to restrain (A) any warrantor from making a deceptive warranty with respect to a consumer product, or (B) any person from failing to comply with any requirement imposed on such person or pursuant to this chapter or from violating any prohibition contained in this chapter.

There is a collective bargaining group that deals with ALL the aftermarket companies insuring that manufacturers such as BMW can not simply deny a warranty concern simply because you make a modification to your car. What the laws say in simple terms is that if the modified piece caused something else to fail then the part that failed can have warranty coverage denied, however they have to prove it before being able to deny coverage. For example; if you put cams in your car and the Vanos fails the Vanos is still item available for warranty coverage. If however the cams go flat you maybe on your own or at the very least have to go back to the cam supplier. Everything has a warranty, expressed or implied unless otherwise stated…. And even when it is stated and printed that there is no warranty there may very well be one there. For example, there is a suitable for use warranty based on the marketing solicitation made by any company to encourage you to use their product, even if it is not in writing. Use something as simple as a tire for this example; lets say you purchase a new tire being told that it is strong, a steel belted radial with great tread design. So you take it home and put it on and it simply will not hold air so not expecting a problem you take it back and share your story……… as you listen to the salespersons response your mouth drops open………. “Did he just say I never told you that it would hold air……. I simply told you it was a strong tire, a steel belted radial with a great tread design”. Now to some this would be simply a lesson in life, to others they would not know what to make of it and likely purchase another tire with different features such as the ability to hold air from the same salesperson…….. because he offered you an inconvenience discount, and then there would be those like us that know the law and would not allow this BS.

Lets take it a step further and address simply the DME tuning and what Dinan offers when compared to a company such as PowerChip. It has remained my experience for many years that Dinan offered a DME upgrade that was not much more than smoke and mirrors, not the best choice of words but in this case what I mean is very little for a lot. The speed limiter may have been removed, maybe the throttle by wire was modified so it felt like you had quicker response without having to turn the sport button on, and in some cases the rev-limiter had a slight modification, but there was a time that there were no other maps such as fuel and timing adjusted. Why, you ask………now that is a very good question, on which I can only speculate. If asked I would say that it is because they did not have to. They were the only game in town and what was being marketed was selling just fine and producing a bottom line profit that all but the strongest of people would have been happy with. People inherently want to believe what they are told so when they were told by their dealer that the Dinan DME tuning was the “the Bomb, Bitchin, Awesome, it would transform their BMW into truly the Ultimate Driving Machine” and then they paid the $$ and received the receipt so it had to be true, it must be the next best thing to sliced bread.

I heard the stories about how some dealers would say that the US cars had limited tuning however with a Dinan tuned DME the car would be like the European models. All I can say is that if the commissions and the dealership profits had not been so high many of these salespeople would have hard a hard time sleeping at night. Money has a funny way of producing the truth.

Then came along companies such as SuperChips, followed by ……… and the company we have all come to know PowerChip. They all said wait a minute, we can do so much more. Folks you are presently buying……… very little for a lot.

In my books this was a boutique item for Dinan that no one could really define but darn, it sounded good, the service writer suggested it so what the heck its only $1500.00. Certainly Dinan has had to change this approach and as such has become more aggressive their tuning however Dinan offers a tuning package designed to be mass marketed rather than a service for the individual. PowerChip on the other hand will take your call, chat about YOUR car, not one listed in the catalog and then work a program for you. I call that customer service, not simply service available for the consumer.

So back to the Dinan warranty issue. By association and the solicitations made within the dealerships I completely understand why folks believe that Dinan and BMW are sister companies, in much the same way as CooperWorks is to the MINIs. When in fact what you have is a controlled unspoken monopoly that mirrors the days when I owned gas stations and we often times controlled the price of fuel and its availability at the corners with the likes of gas wars, etc. I have a variety of reasons for sharing this but foremost has to do with memos received by the dealerships stating that they BMW AG will not honor warranty on vehicles that have products installed that do not come out of a specific basket. Can they do this legally……NO……are they getting away with it……absolutely, for the most part because the consumer is told something by the dealership, it is accepted as truth, and then fear keeps them from stepping in to the aftermarket arena.

I suppose the primary reason I share all of this is because I would like to continue my quest. My quest to have all the cloaking disappear, clear easy to understand answers to consumer questions, solicitations based on fact, claims that can be duplicated in the field rather than a claim based on some laboratory experiment that just happened to produce ideal results, and most of all a reversal of the power……..the consumer needs to lead the way supported by those manufacturers, tuners, service providers, and marketing companies that listen and respond rather than tell and try to convince. When this reversal happens the dead wood will simply drifted away, dreams will become shared again, and the belief that to a person you will matter whereas today……unless your opening line is “Hi I have my American Express card ready’ you can barely get a returned call, and when you do is the answer based on what you want, need, desire, and have dreamed for…or simply one of the products or services they provide….it has become a fricken numbers game. Akin to PT Barnum, paint the wagon a different color, call it something slightly different, and the folks line up on the same street a short time later as if they have never been there before and can not remember that the last time they were they were taken advantage of.

WOW…….now that was a rant….sorry to ramble so long.

Happy New Year folks.

Shadowman
 
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