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Discussion Starter #1
I'm guessing there's going to be limited experience with this since it seems the US only got the later style injectors, but I'm wondering anyone can tell me whether I can swap the later style injectors into my June 99 M5 with the early E36 M3 type?

realoem says the later injectors are 'Non exchangeable retrospectively' which I assume means not backwards compatible but why? all other components seem to be the same other than the o rings.

From what I can tell, my June 99 M5 has these injectors: https://www.witchhunter.com/flowdatapix/b0280150792.jpg
and Sept 99+ models have these: https://www.witchhunter.com/flowdatapix/b0280157005.jpg

If those flow rates are accurate then the later models flow ~10% more so how does the DME account for this? Are there different DME maps for different model years? I'm assuming not because the DME isn't aware that my car is missing some other post Sept 99 equipment.

Might explain why my fuel trims are ~10% high anyway.

Reason I'm asking is that I have symptoms exactly like described here: Help me diagnose a faint hot idle/low RPM misfire.
I had ruled out injectors by swapping them between the banks but after reading that I think it's worth looking at more closely. I will check the resistance but if that doesn't turn up any issue I'd like to test by swapping in a known good set of injectors which would be the later type.
 

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If your long term fuel trims are running a bit on the high side I think you can probably get away with it. Early and late fuel rails are the same part numbers, correct? I'm pretty sure both the early and late style injectors have the same mounting dimensions and the same connector, so I think they'll 'fit.' I would expect the fuel map in the DME is slightly different due to the different flow rates, but the fuel trims will be able to compensate for at least some of that. In short, I'm not 100% sure but probably 90% that you wouldn't hurt anything by using the later injectors for a test, with likely the worst outcome being a CEL if the trims go outside their acceptable windows. Another option would be to send your current injectors out to be cleaned and flow tested.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
What I want to know is whether the DME software is the same for all model years or whether there are different versions or configurations for different model years?
Based on my ebox fan experience I'm assuming that the DME software is not model year specific but it would be nice to be able to confirm that.

Regarding testing the injectors, I ended up swapping in some Bosch 0280155832 injectors that seem to be a common 'upgrade' for the E36 M3 that shares injectors with mine and after a short test drive it feels like a massive improvement. Smoother idle, more responsive, no hesitation, even thought the DSC was kicking in more often than usual.
Wouldn't be the first time I thought it was better though so time will tell.

Resistance test on the stock injectors checked out so next step will be to flow test them.
 

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RealOEM suggests pre 09/1999 cars have software version 7837955. 09/1999 to 03/2000 have 7837963.

Looking through the differences, the majority of the differences are cold-start fuel injection values, target injection end angles, and injector latency. The actual injection flow rate is set the same between the two.

It'll probably work "good enough" if you just swap in the newer injectors, but flashing to 7837963 probably makes sense.

Injector typeOE NR.TypeInfo production stop
(status 01.2008)
offer drawingResistance (Ohm)Test mediumOperating pressure (kPa)Q-stat (at operating pressure) (g/min)Q-stat with 300 kPa (g/min)Q-stat with 300 kPa (ml/min)q-dyn with 300 kPa, ti 2,5 ms (g/1000 Imp.)Spray typeSpray angle alfa-50
(for 2 beam)
Spray angle alfa-80
(for cone-characteristic)
axial deviation angle (spray bent angle)Spray orientation angleSpray distribution (area, spray amount)allowed fuelsVersion, typeElectrical connectorlocating lug (anti rotation device)hydr. connection to manifoldhydr. connection to fuel railDistance between O-rings
(O-Ring to O-Ring)
Total length
02801507920 280 150 792EV 1A 280 400 579-114
15.9​
Heptan
450​
234​
191.1​
273​
5.88​
A¤22°¤¤8°-30°¤>60%¤1.3JetronicnoO-Ring standardO-Ring standard
60.5​
77
02801570050 280 157 005EV12A 280 432 125-114
12​
Heptan
400​
223​
193.1​
276​
6.32​
E15°¤10°90°>30%E85Design 96JetronicnoO-Ring standardO-Ring standard
52​
84
02801558320 280 155 832EV 6A 280 434 043-019
12​
Heptan
380​
211​
187.5​
268​
5.55​
E20°¤90°12°-24°¤>30%E85Design 96JetronicnoO-Ring standardO-Ring standard
60.3​
73

With the data I have, the flow rates for all 3 injector when at the same pressure are quite close.

RealOEM does show the injector rail being different, and with the newer injectors having a different overall length, I do wonder if there'd be fitment issues if you didn't update the rail as well. In which case, perhaps you're better off sticking with the injectors you switched to.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks, that's awesome. So I guess that answers my question about the software, actually mine does have the 7837955 software and I had tried the 7837683 because I had the impression it was newer but reverted when I realised it wasn't, I had the impression that the 963 software was not used by BMW though?

The 'new' injectors have definitely made a massive difference, not sure now whether I should have the stock injectors rebuilt or stick with these new ones though.

Btw, do you have the same information for the E60 M5 injectors? I think they're Bosch # 0280158036.

Are the addresses and format of these MSS52 injector parameters documented anywhere?, I haven't looked through the MSS52 thread in so much detail.
 

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Here's the E60 M5 and E9x M3 injectors:

Injector typeOE NR.TypeInfo production stop
(status 01.2008)
offer drawingResistance (Ohm)Test mediumOperating pressure (kPa)Q-stat (at operating pressure) (g/min)Q-stat with 300 kPa (g/min)Q-stat with 300 kPa (ml/min)q-dyn with 300 kPa, ti 2,5 ms (g/1000 Imp.)Spray typeSpray angle alfa-50
(for 2 beam)
Spray angle alfa-80
(for cone-characteristic)
axial deviation angle (spray bent angle)Spray orientation angleSpray distribution (area, spray amount)allowed fuelsVersion, typeElectrical connectorlocating lug (anti rotation device)hydr. connection to manifoldhydr. connection to fuel railDistance between O-rings
(O-Ring to O-Ring)
Total length
02801580360 280 158 036EV147 834 893
12​
Heptan
500​
249​
192.9​
276​
6.12​
E15°¤10°270°>45%E85longer spray endJetronicnoO-Ring standardO-Ring standard
48.7​
78
02801581640 280 158 164EV147 838 440
12​
Heptan
500​
249​
192.9​
276​
5.23​
E15°¤10°270°>45%E85longer spray endJetronic¤¤¤¤78 ?

Also very similar flow rates. E60 injector flow rates are actually almost identical to the post-99 E39. E9x is basically the same, except a little less flow at short injector durations. I think that shorter O-ring distance would force you to get the post-99 injector rail if you wanted to use them.

Also with the E60 and E9x injectors, the spray pattern is a little different, with the E9x looking like it'd probably result in better distribution. So perhaps worth tweaking the tune a little at those short injector durations (and there might be parameters we can steal from that DME)

M5:


M3:


The injector parameters are mostly in the XDF, but they're not really things that were discussed in detail online anywhere.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Hmm, Those E90 injectors are interesting, I figure there must be a reason BMW switched to the long nozzle injectors too. Is using injectors with different characteristics just a matter of changing some injectors latency and flow rate tables or is there more to it than that?

The E60 M5 and E90 M3 injectors are much more reasonably priced than the E39 injectors.

The Sept '99+ fuel rail must be different because also the slot for the retaining clip to the fuel rail is much further from the inlet side orings on the 02800157005 injectors so the outlet side oring probably wouldn't even be seated in the throttle bodies with mine.
 

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Hmm, Those E90 injectors are interesting, I figure there must be a reason BMW switched to the long nozzle injectors too. Is using injectors with different characteristics just a matter of changing some injectors latency and flow rate tables or is there more to it than that?
You wouldn't really have to change the tables. There's a flow rate scalar that you would tweak for the new injectors. That alone will get things running decently for the most part. But for an OEM-level calibration, there's more work to do.

I think you can use the E60 M5 injectors without any further tune modifications. The E9x M3 will also work mostly fine, but I'll have to dig a little deeper to see what all needs to be tweaked to account for the flow differences at shorter durations
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I found a romraider ecu definition for the MSS52 which describes 'scalar' and 'deadtime' tables. The 'scalar' table is quite large and maps a multiplier to relative filling % and rpm, sounds like you're describing a single value?

Anyway, I'm happy enough with the 0280155832 injectors for the time being so maybe this'll be a project for the future. I found an M5 tuner near me so I'll see what he thinks too.

Thanks for the help.
 
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