BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums banner

1 - 20 of 91 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Noob here looking to purchase a well sorted e60 m5. Couldn't find a definitive answer to this.

The consensus view seems to suggest BE rod bearings + ARP headbolts when replaceing OEM.

Are BE rod bearings a permanent solutions to wear issues? or do they need to be replaced every 60k miles or so.

Thanks,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
231 Posts
Yes fixes it for good. I can assure you that question is answered a dozen places all over the forum.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
313 Posts
I don't think it fixes it for good. I've yet to see enough data behind BE bearings and ARP bolts to bear conclusive confirmation. I've changed my bearings at ~70k and have put ~10k miles in 2 years. At the rate in which I should change it, I'll have owned it for 10 years. Which I don't think will be the case.

Just look at it as a maintenance item.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
220 Posts
Are BE rod bearings a permanent solutions to wear issues?
I'm not convinced. We'd have to see, say, ten cars with BE bearings and 100k miles after the change and zero failures... and that won't happen any time soon.

That said, I'm happy that BE is your best bet.

I think it's very unlikely that the bolts make a damn bit of difference.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
2,167 Posts
To keep this from becoming an oil discussion, let's stick to facts:

There are no rod bearing failures reported when using BE bearings. (There are however a couple engine failures shown to be installer error).
The few engines that have been disassembled after running with BE bearings have shown zero wear (I can think of 3 examples where photos have been posted).
BE provides a warranty with their bearings (can't seem to find the details at the moment tho).

On the other hand:
All BMW bearings show at least some wear, even the best examples like @Fiftytwoeighty.
All rod bearing failures have occurred with BMW bearings.

Bolts:
BE agrees there's no advantage with aftermarket bolts. It's only installer convenience of having to torque bolts once vs. 3 times for bmw ones.

Anything I missed?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
310 Posts
Agreed on the Rod bolts, save yourself either time or money. I went with new OEM rod bolts as the labor cost was the same regardless =)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
231 Posts
Anything I missed?
Could rant about start up procedure and oil weight for everyone who thinks they're the first person to think running lower weight somehow is a better idea. I think it's been a week since there was a new thread on that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
313 Posts
To keep this from becoming an oil discussion, let's stick to facts:

There are no rod bearing failures reported when using BE bearings. (There are however a couple engine failures shown to be installer error).
The few engines that have been disassembled after running with BE bearings have shown zero wear (I can think of 3 examples where photos have been posted).
BE provides a warranty with their bearings (can't seem to find the details at the moment tho).

On the other hand:
All BMW bearings show at least some wear, even the best examples like @Fiftytwoeighty.
All rod bearing failures have occurred with BMW bearings.

Bolts:
BE agrees there's no advantage with aftermarket bolts. It's only installer convenience of having to torque bolts once vs. 3 times for bmw ones.

Anything I missed?
Do you have the threads for the examples of BE bearings? I thought I searched for them but I couldn't find anything.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,182 Posts
My experience summary:


I’m at 169/170,000 miles now. I’ll pull the BE in about 30/40,000 miles.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ticat928

·
Registered
Joined
·
440 Posts
BE bearings are slightly smaller which provide a larger space between the bearing and journal surface therefore thicker oil will get in easier. Because our engines require such thick oil (10w-60) theoretically BE bearings are better than OEM bearings for this reason.
It'll be hard to compare BE bearings to OEM now that everyone is aware of the potential issues and they will be changing their oil way more often and sooner than their cars have ever seen in the past on OEM bearings.
They're a few more $ than the OEM or the other aftermarket options now, but I really don't feel like doing this job again so I paid the extra.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
2,167 Posts
Not quite. But I'm too lazy to get oil facts written up. Perhaps this will help tho: here's the link to pics of an engine that Jim Colley ran a test with. You need to be a member of the FB group tho.


Note the 702/703 are copper/lead free bearings so you won't see any copper. And if you're not a member of the FB group I took a snapshot, hope @jcolley doesn't mind:


934678
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
2,167 Posts
Here are a couple examples of BEs removed after some miles. Not even the anti-friction coating is worn.

First one running LM 10W60 no less, the 'thickest' of all 10w60s (not that it matters but for those of you who think viscosity has something to do with wear):



Second one:

 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
440 Posts
The first example I've seen before but it's just too few miles.
The second I haven't seen yet, Looks promising but they were running 0w40, which is thinner oil.

I'm running 5w-50 castrol fully synthetic since I did my rod bearings.
Mind you I have only put about 2000miles on and only 3 oil changes (to flush old oil and such) I'll do it's 4th oil change in the next week or so as I wait for my throttle actuator to come in.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
440 Posts
Guess you chose to ignore Jim's test.
I didn't ignore Jim's test - it, along with BE's website technical info was enough evidence and theory for me to choose BE bearings - what I'm saying is I didn't see any BE bearings after 30, 40, 50, or 60kmiles of use though. Like most oem bearings that have been in our cars since day one and we compare them online as we do preventative replacement or replace due to copper showing up and they are almost always showing signs of wear against the crank.

I will recommend BE bearings for the same reasons I chose them.
It'll be exciting to see the first S85 BE bearing with higher mileage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
440 Posts
I said its a theory. I don't claim anything other than that we need long term evidence. So far the evidence is really only those two scenarios.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
313 Posts
I'm not doubting that they are potentially the best option for the s85. It's just the devil's advocate part of me that questions the results still. There are so few examples, especially those of higher miles.

Many additional factors that can affect the way the WPC treated bearings come into play. Average environment temperatures for one.

I'm sure when the time comes when I change the bearings again there will be enough data that leads me to believe that this is the ultimate solution. Until then, I'll still question whether this is the solution.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,182 Posts
Well, I have 19,000 miles on my BE bearings. As I said in my earlier post, I'll pull them for sh!ts and giggles in another 40,000 miles. At that time, I'll have two 60,000 mile wear comparisons between my OEM leaded and BE bearings. And I'll be at 210,000 miles!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
726 Posts
Since this ended up being an oil discussion, I thought it would be fun to join the party.
Oil viscosity makes a big difference to wear. Oil is not THE issue, but it IS a significant contributing factor. This is why: Viscosity (or the weight) is the resistance to flowing. High viscosity mean high resistance to flowing, the higher the number the higher the resistance to flowing. This is like syrup. Low viscosity is low resistance to flow, so think of that like water, it will flow fast.

On cold starts you want the oil to flow as fast as possible throughout the entire engine's lubrication circuit. Slow flowing oil will cause starvation. When you have oil starvation in an area that needs oil, you get wear. By definition, low viscosity oil flows faster. The EFFECT of slow or poor flowing oil is wear. If you live in the south it rarely gets below 30 deg anyways so there's really not much of a difference. If you drive in the north where you regularly see low or negative temps this slow flow absolutely has an effect on wear.

The viscosity of the fluid has far less impact on the ability of the fluid to transmit pressure. Regardless of the viscosity, a fluid is incompressible so the pressure will equally transmit. VANOS operates off of hydraulic pressure so the weight of the oil has little to no effect on whether the actuator circuits would advance or retard the timing.

High viscosity can be good and bad, it means the oil film will remain on metal surfaces longer than low viscosity, so that is kinda good for cold starts. The problem is that that residual film is insufficient to bear any type of load that something like a rod bearing sees. Revving it while cold only makes it worse, since the the oil pressure and flow might not have reached all the right areas yet. You now have more metal to metal contact. They hydrodynamic layer has not been built up yet. As the RPMs build the forces increase, and the thin film that WAS there now on cold start dissipates because of the shaft rotation. This is reason why you don't rev the engine on cold start.

For the people that insist that oil weight makes no difference, please start running a 20W oil especially if you live in the north, make sure you rev your engine too while it's cold, post a video every day for a year with the temperature upon cold start to document it. If you live in the south it doesn't count. Then show us your bearing wear. If you do this I will send you a new set of ACL bearings for your stupidity. Just to be clear when I say a 20W oil that means 20W-50, 20W-60 or some other 20W that is on the low side. I do not mean a 0W20 or 5W20.
 
1 - 20 of 91 Posts
Top