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Discussion Starter #1
I just got my Rogue Engineering 10mm and 12mm spacers and slapped them on the beast (OEM Wheels, H&R springs). The spacers are very well made and very light, CNC 6061-T6 Aluminum. Unlike H&R spacers, these come with the 10 lug bolts, 10.9 grade (sourced from Tire Rack, I heard).

I've read hear that the H&R lug bolts run 40mm and 43mm for the 10mm and 12mm, respectively. However, to my surprise, the Rogue lug bolts states on the package "for 10mm / 12mm spacers." They are exactly the same size for the 2 widths. My question is for those who are running the H&R lug bolts. Is there a length difference in yours? Do I need to be concerned? I'm thinking of just buying 20 H&R bolts from Turner in the correct lengths, as those bolts are also Euro spec TUV approved.
 

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I just got my Rogue Engineering 10mm and 12mm spacers and slapped them on the beast (OEM Wheels, H&R springs). The spacers are very well made and very light, CNC 6061-T6 Aluminum. Unlike H&R spacers, these come with the 10 lug bolts, 10.9 grade (sourced from Tire Rack, I heard).

I've read hear that the H&R lug bolts run 40mm and 43mm for the 10mm and 12mm, respectively. However, to my surprise, the Rogue lug bolts states on the package "for 10mm / 12mm spacers." They are exactly the same size for the 2 widths. My question is for those who are running the H&R lug bolts. Is there a length difference in yours? Do I need to be concerned? I'm thinking of just buying 20 H&R bolts from Turner in the correct lengths, as those bolts are also Euro spec TUV approved.
Hey Mike,

Who ended up doing your springs?

I am curious, how does the car look now, especially with the spacers. I did not do the spacers after my drop, but I am running 19" HRE's and fender fill-out looks good. Do you have any pics!

Thanks! and :cheers:
 
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Discussion Starter #4
Hey Mike,

Who ended up doing your springs?

I am curious, how does the car look now, especially with the spacers. I did not do the spacers after my drop, but I am running 19" HRE's and fender fill-out looks good. Do you have any pics!

Thanks! and :cheers:
Hi Mike!

Thanks for the recommendation. I went with Status thru Rick, as you've recommended. Great place near the beach. Their tech finished up my car in 1.5 hours (H&R install) and I was snooping around during that whole time. He took his time, also. Just really quick and experienced. The tech told me that he got experience thru messing up some guy's Black M5 that had Eibach's put in. He stripped some mounting bolts in the rear and broke a plug or two. He says that the boss and the owner didn't know.... (j/k man! Don't break out into a cold sweat just yet... haha :biggrinbounce:)

OT: Andrew Bynam (sp?), the Laker center, was there. He tried to get me to buy his RDSport Section 1 for half price. He told me that the headers + RD complete exhaust caused such massive torque loss that he cannot "burn rubber" in his M6 anymore. I asked him about the whole S6, DSC off thing and he looked a bit puzzled. I have to show him the I-Drive magic and how to program his M button to go DSC off and S6 (LOL). I think we got another happy customer now! :7:

Thanks for the recommendation. Great shop, great guys, FAST work. I think your HRE's should work w/o spacers, no?
 

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A quick tip when you running spacers and your concerned about the bolt size is if i'm not mistaken, when you torque the bolt by hand it has to rotate atleast 4 times (360 degrees) if you can do that on your aftermarket bolts then your good...
 

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Hi Mike!

Thanks for the recommendation. I went with Status thru Rick, as you've recommended. Great place near the beach. Their tech finished up my car in 1.5 hours (H&R install) and I was snooping around during that whole time. He took his time, also. Just really quick and experienced. The tech told me that he got experience thru messing up some guy's Black M5 that had Eibach's put in. He stripped some mounting bolts in the rear and broke a plug or two. He says that the boss and the owner didn't know.... (j/k man! Don't break out into a cold sweat just yet... haha :biggrinbounce:)

OT: Andrew Bynam (sp?), the Laker center, was there. He tried to get me to buy his RDSport Section 1 for half price. He told me that the headers + RD complete exhaust caused such massive torque loss that he cannot "burn rubber" in his M6 anymore. I asked him about the whole S6, DSC off thing and he looked a bit puzzled. I have to show him the I-Drive magic and how to program his M button to go DSC off and S6 (LOL). I think we got another happy customer now! :7:

Thanks for the recommendation. Great shop, great guys, FAST work. I think your HRE's should work w/o spacers, no?
Good story!:applause:

Tell Bynum you will show him all the nuances of his car AND show him how to drive for a couple pair of floor seats (hint!:hihi:). He must feel like he just got a new car!:confused: You should have told him you'll help him out to unloaded his mods, but say you'll do him a favor at 25 cents on the dollar.:haha:

Disclaimer: Andrew, if you read this, I'm only kidding!:1: You are a great asset to the Laker organization!lovelove

I don't need spacers, so to speak, I was curious on the look. :dunno:

You right, even though I new you were kidding, that little butt pucker showed! uphiha
 

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Discussion Starter #7
A quick tip when you running spacers and your concerned about the bolt size is if i'm not mistaken, when you torque the bolt by hand it has to rotate atleast 4 times (360 degrees) if you can do that on your aftermarket bolts then your good...
It does about 5 turns or so. Thanks. I'm just kinda paranoid...
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Mike, I am still waiting the 3 weeks for the springs to settle. Thereafter, an alignment will be done and the wheels will even look more flush. Negative camber right now... but I am liking the hadling and turn-in. Just an overkill on tires for street driving.

Sorry for the crappy pics. Got the Canon on night mode and the coffee I was drinking tonight got my hands a bit shaky.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
looks good, how did the bolts work out?
I am using the Rogue Bolts (sourced from Tire Rack) right now. I've emailed Rogue. Knowing my paranoid self, I'll probably order 16 H&R bolts (40mm / 43mm) and 4 Lockable ones from RAD.
 

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Wow!

The rears look perfect! And you are right, in a couple of more miles the fronts will settle a fraction more. The spacers made a difference! They look nice an flush!

Congrats!:M5thumbs:
cherrsagai

So. . . . Are we getting any Laker tix?:hihi:
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Wow!

The rears look perfect! And you are right, in a couple of more miles the fronts will settle a fraction more. The spacers made a difference! They look nice an flush!

Congrats!:M5thumbs:
cherrsagai

So. . . . Are we getting any Laker tix?:hihi:
I'm going to Assael to get it aligned. They charged a buddy of mine under (way under, IIRC) $200.00 to align his 650i with H&R's with 21" HRE's. I think New Century is going to gouge me on price (you know all their "nice" SA's there).

If you ever see Rick again, ask him about him (as passenger) and Bynam's 14.0 mph runs down PCH (!!!). Rick says he almost shat his pants, as Bynam broke the rears a little loose / sideways thru the ordeal (with MDM, no less). Maybe DSC off isn't a great idea, as he is an asset to the Lakers. And if I ever get tix, I'll pass 'em along to you (seriously), as I don't frequent Staples Center much. :cheers:
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Keep me posted on the outcome, interested to know what Rogue has to say.
Email FROM Rogue:


Dear Mike,

Thank you for your order and question.

The factory lug bolts have a 24mm UL (useable length) with factory wheels. Naturally, if you add 10mm to the setup (a spacer), you would have to have a lug bolt to accomodate. A 34mm UL would suffice. The same goes for a 12mm spacer (you would need a 36mm UL).

The lug bolts we provide are 35mm UL, since TR [Tire Rack] carries limited sizes (they're in the wheel business, not for necessarily selling spacers). Also, we have found that bolts that are TOO long, may interfere with some hub designs of various BMWs. We decided to keep the bolts to close to the required size as possible.

Please note that lug bolts are CONSUMABLES! They DO need to be replaced on a regular basis (like wiper blades, brake pads, and brake fluid). They are not considered a lifetime item.

Do not overtorque, check to make sure spacers are flush on the BACK of the wheel, as in our years of selling our spacer (and H&R copying the 10 and 12mm designs), wheel incompatability may cause bolts to prematurely break, even if torqued properly. These are generally with aftermarket wheels that this has occured (Kosei K1, for example).

Best Regards,
Ben Liaw
Rogue Engineering • 201-444-8150

My Reply TO abovce email from Rogue (Still waiting for a reply from them...)

Hi Ben,

Thank you for your quick reply. Do you think, in your experience, that it may be a better option for me to go with the 40 and 43mm H&R bolts (TUV approved). I know they will fit my car (2007 E60 M5, OEM wheels), as I know others who have used it on theirs. Though it may be true that a 10mm spacer may require a +10mm lug bolt for the same thread "bite" on the hub, but there is naturally more stress on the components (bearings, suspension) including the lug bolts because I am moving the wheels further outward.

I don't mind buying these if there is a seed of doubt regarding safety using the supplied ones. Please tell me what you would do on your own car. Thanks for your honesty!

Regards,
Michael

PS: I am running the OEM wheels and torque the bolts to the specified 88.5 - 89.0 Lbs. I re-check them periodically.

I'll keep you guys posted on any further news... ;)
 

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Email FROM Rogue:


Dear Mike,

Thank you for your order and question.

The factory lug bolts have a 24mm UL (useable length) with factory wheels. Naturally, if you add 10mm to the setup (a spacer), you would have to have a lug bolt to accomodate. A 34mm UL would suffice. The same goes for a 12mm spacer (you would need a 36mm UL).

The lug bolts we provide are 35mm UL, since TR [Tire Rack] carries limited sizes (they're in the wheel business, not for necessarily selling spacers). Also, we have found that bolts that are TOO long, may interfere with some hub designs of various BMWs. We decided to keep the bolts to close to the required size as possible.

Please note that lug bolts are CONSUMABLES! They DO need to be replaced on a regular basis (like wiper blades, brake pads, and brake fluid). They are not considered a lifetime item.

Do not overtorque, check to make sure spacers are flush on the BACK of the wheel, as in our years of selling our spacer (and H&R copying the 10 and 12mm designs), wheel incompatability may cause bolts to prematurely break, even if torqued properly. These are generally with aftermarket wheels that this has occured (Kosei K1, for example).

Best Regards,
Ben Liaw
Rogue Engineering • 201-444-8150

My Reply TO abovce email from Rogue (Still waiting for a reply from them...)

Hi Ben,

Thank you for your quick reply. Do you think, in your experience, that it may be a better option for me to go with the 40 and 43mm H&R bolts (TUV approved). I know they will fit my car (2007 E60 M5, OEM wheels), as I know others who have used it on theirs. Though it may be true that a 10mm spacer may require a +10mm lug bolt for the same thread "bite" on the hub, but there is naturally more stress on the components (bearings, suspension) including the lug bolts because I am moving the wheels further outward.

I don't mind buying these if there is a seed of doubt regarding safety using the supplied ones. Please tell me what you would do on your own car. Thanks for your honesty!

Regards,
Michael

PS: I am running the OEM wheels and torque the bolts to the specified 88.5 - 89.0 Lbs. I re-check them periodically.

I'll keep you guys posted on any further news... ;)
Good looking out its nice to know there really not sending tirerack the right sizes for the spacers they are selling them:nono:.

I guess they should be purchased directly from Rogue to get the proper bolts. Where they cheaper at Tirerack?
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Good looking out its nice to know there really not sending tirerack the right sizes for the spacers they are selling them:nono:.

I guess they should be purchased directly from Rogue to get the proper bolts. Where they cheaper at Tirerack?
Actually, the Rogue Spacers come with Lug Bolts included. Rogue gets their lug bolts from Tire Rack. The reason why they get them from tire rack, as opposed to making it themselves, is b/c a couple of years ago, theirs failed / broke. They decided to make a business decision to get their bolts from Tire Rack. Unfortunately, they (Tire Rack) do not have exact sizes. Rogue Engineering does not make their own lug bolts anymore.

With that being said, I think their spacers are the best. It is light, extremely well made, have a groove for removal in case they get fused to the hub (which happens a lot, but I use Anti Seize anyway), hubcentric... oh, and did I mention LIGHT? =) The price for their spacers are roughly the same as H&R Trak Spacers. It just comes, if effect for free, the lug bolts. So me purchasing H&R lugs would not have a negative cost effect on the good ol' wallet.
 

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Actually, the Rogue Spacers come with Lug Bolts included. Rogue gets their lug bolts from Tire Rack. The reason why they get them from tire rack, as opposed to making it themselves, is b/c a couple of years ago, theirs failed / broke. They decided to make a business decision to get their bolts from Tire Rack. Unfortunately, they (Tire Rack) do not have exact sizes. Rogue Engineering does not make their own lug bolts anymore.

With that being said, I think their spacers are the best. It is light, extremely well made, have a groove for removal in case they get fused to the hub (which happens a lot, but I use Anti Seize anyway), hubcentric... oh, and did I mention LIGHT? =) The price for their spacers are roughly the same as H&R Trak Spacers. It just comes, if effect for free, the lug bolts. So me purchasing H&R lugs would not have a negative cost effect on the good ol' wallet.
I'm sure that Modbargins has the right bolts, I read it on another post.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Update from Rogue:

For the track, I personally would not use spacers. If I had to use spacers (for BBK clearance, for example), I would be using studs.

It is the exact reason why we use the hardware from Tire Rack...for the quality. Whereas there are no TUV approvals here, I'm told that the vendor for Tire Rack is also OEM to BMW as well as VW. After a few bolt vendors in the past (including chrome plated ones) with questionable quality, we are much more confident with the hardware sourced from Tire Rack. The only downside is the availability of many sizes.

Here's a source for more choices:

http://www.europeanautosource.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=bolts

A longer bolt isn't necessarily a strong one, as you may imagine. Having more thread engagement does not increase the hardness or strength of a bolt.

Best Regards,
Ben Liaw
Rogue Engineering • 201-444-8150

I have since got 8 pcs + 8 pcs H&R bolts, FR and RR, from Turner and the RAD wheels locks (4 pcs) from RadUSADirect 12x1.5 42mm. I will cut two of those by 2mm to accomatdate the Fronts, per suggestion from RAD themselves.
 

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Update from Rogue:

For the track, I personally would not use spacers. If I had to use spacers (for BBK clearance, for example), I would be using studs.

It is the exact reason why we use the hardware from Tire Rack...for the quality. Whereas there are no TUV approvals here, I'm told that the vendor for Tire Rack is also OEM to BMW as well as VW. After a few bolt vendors in the past (including chrome plated ones) with questionable quality, we are much more confident with the hardware sourced from Tire Rack. The only downside is the availability of many sizes.

Here's a source for more choices:

http://www.europeanautosource.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=bolts

A longer bolt isn't necessarily a strong one, as you may imagine. Having more thread engagement does not increase the hardness or strength of a bolt.

Best Regards,
Ben Liaw
Rogue Engineering • 201-444-8150

I have since got 8 pcs + 8 pcs H&R bolts, FR and RR, from Turner and the RAD wheels locks (4 pcs) from RadUSADirect 12x1.5 42mm. I will cut two of those by 2mm to accomatdate the Fronts, per suggestion from RAD themselves.
This just gets more interesting, I'm glad your doing all the leg work:M5thumbs:eek:k so on the RAD's for the front if there 42mm shouldn't you be cutting more than 2mm if the fronts ? 34mm (stock 24mm + 10mm spacer) ???
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
This just gets more interesting, I'm glad your doing all the leg work:M5thumbs:eek:k so on the RAD's for the front if there 42mm shouldn't you be cutting more than 2mm if the fronts ? 34mm (stock 24mm + 10mm spacer) ???
Some other members here did the "legwork" for me here in regards to the length the bolts could (and should) be. Even though I see Ben's (Rogue) point in the +10mm bolt for a 10mm spacer and +12mm bolt for the 12mm spacer, the factory hub seems to be able to take more length than that. I suppose using this logic, even the factory wheels w/o spacers can take another 6mm or so of thread, but I think BMW engineers calculated that longer bolts at the given Scrub Radius with stock wheels and offsets were not necessary.

With the supplied Tire Rack bolts, I am actually gaining 1mm (from stock) of bolt length in front and losing 1mm (from stock) length in back. When using Ben's logic with their standard 35mm bolts, I need a 34mm bolt in front and a 36mm bolt in back!

My belief is that because the wheels are "pushed out," increasing stress loads across the wheel bearings, hub, strut bearing, ball joint and the Lug Bolts, using the standard +10mm and +12mm on the lug bolts (to get it back to stock "thread bite") would not be ideal. I wanted to add more length to help support the higher loads on the bolts.

What Ben's last reply to me makes a lot of sense as well. Longer does not mean stronger (you hear that, m5baller? So much for your hero Peter North...j/k!!) . The ultimate stress on the bolt will be aft of the part that threads into the hub (the head and the part that contacts the spacer and wheels). If I were using a crappy bolt, it would snap even if it were really long. But, according to Turner Motorsports, the H&R lugs are Euro TUV approved, so I have faith that it should be at least equally strong compared to my Tire Rack (and OEM) ones.

Here is a couple of more (@ dusk with Cell Phone Camera) pics with my Rogue Spacers and H&R's (notice the neg camber, as I have not had an alignment done yet).
 

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